2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

yeshuaslavejeff said: ↑
It seems to me quite clear that most of the motives and reasons and practices and teachings and purposes that are the reason for and/or that go along with these topis are

UN- Biblical.

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parousia70 said:

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Jesus parousia would occur within the lifetime of His apostles.
(Matt 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32,Matt 16:28, Luke 9:27,Matt 10:23)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that all things written would be fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
(Luke 21:20-22)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that as it was in Noah's day, So would the coming of the Son of Man be. The wicked would be taken in Judgement, and the rightesous would be "left behind" on earth.
(Matt 24:37-41)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that salvatiion was not complete until Christ returned.
(Hebrews 9:28)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that The way to heaven was not opened until the Temple was destroyed.
(Hebrews 9:8)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that on the "new earth" Birth, death, ageing and sinners would continue to exist.(Isaiah 65:17-21, Revelation 21 & 22)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Christ is an invisible King, He was to come "in His kingdom" and that the coming of His kingdom would be "unobservable"
(1Timothy 1:17, Luke 17:20)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Christ, Lord of the Vineyard, personally came back and took the kingdom from the Jews, destroying them at that time, and gave it to the church, who is the holy nation that bears it's fruits.
(Matt 21:33-43, 1Peter 2:9)

The Bible,and therefore preterism, teaches that the Church is the "Israel of God" and the only heir to the promise of Abraham. (Gal 6:16)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that the true inheritance of Abraham is not earthly, but the better country of Heaven. (Hebrews 11:16, 1 Peter 1:4)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, is true and correct.

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LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Good post mkgal.
Do you agree with a lot of the views of Partial Preterism concerning much of the Olivet Disourse and much of Revelation was fulfilled in the 1st century?

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mkgal1 said:

From where I am now (and what I've studied - which I still have a LOT more to contemplate and read through with fresh eyes and mind ) I believe so......but I'm reserving my right to change my mind

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I can't help but believe God had a hand in having Josephus be a witness to the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem. It should me a must reading for Christians, imho.
[which would decimate the ranks of futurism ]

History of the Destruction of Jerusalem & Josephan Studies Archives

HISTORICAL SIGNIFICANCE

"During the Middle Ages, Josephus was the most widely read ancient author in Europe.. Josephus' literary influence had no equals, with the sole exception of the Bible."

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted


THE DESTRUCTION OF
JERUSALEM, &C.

THE goodness of God stamps all his proceedings. It has please Him not only to communicate to mankind a revelation, which, to the pious mind, bears in its internal texture its own evidence and recommendation, but also to accompany it with such external proofs of a sacred origin, as seem calculated to strike, with irresistible conviction, even those who are least disposed to admit the truth of the Holy Scriptures. In order to evidence their divine authenticity, God has done as much as man could possibly have required. [1] For, supposing that it had been referred to mankind to have prescribed for their own satisfaction, and that of their prosperity, the credentials which His messengers should bring with them, in order to authenticate the divinity of their mission, could the wisest and most skeptical amongst men have proposed, for this purpose, any thing more conclusive than,

1st. Demonstrations of power, surpassing every possible effect of human skill and effort -- and

2dly. Intelligence relative to the future events and circumstances of nations and individuals, which no human sagacity would ever pretend to foresee or predict ?

If such had been the evidences demanded, what addition to them could possibly have been suggested ? Is it in the human mind to imagine any tests of divine authority better adapted, sooner or later, to expose the artifices, and frustrate the designs, of an imposter ? In vain will the profoundest policy attempt to discover means more suitable to this purpose, and, with respect to the reception of the revelation itself, more perfectly fitted to banish all reasonable doubt on the one hand, and to invalidate the charge of credulity on the other. Now these, precisely, are the credentials with which it has pleased God to sanction the testimony of his inspired messengers, as recorded in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. THEY WROUGHT MIRACLES : THEY FORETOLD FUTURE EVENTS. Thus all that man himself could demand has been given, and objectors are left entirely without excuse.

JESUS CHRIST, the principal of those messengers, like his illustrious types and predecessors Moses and Elijah, proclaimed and attested his divine mission at once by miraculous acts, and by prophetic declarations. His miracles were numerous, diversified, and performed in various parts of his native country ; they were not frivolous tricks, calculated merely to excite wonder and gratify curiosity, but acts of substantial utility and benevolence. They were publicly, but not boastingly and ostentatiously, displayed -- in the presence not of friends only, but also of enemies -- of enemies exasperated to malignity against him, because he had censured their vices and exposed their hypocrisy, and who were actuated by every motive which a spirit of revenge could suggest to incurable prejudice, to induce them to detect the imposition of his miracles, if false, and to deny and discredit them, if true. To deny them they did not attempt, but they strove to sink them in disrepute, and thereby furnished a striking specimen of those embarrassing dilemmas, into which infidelity is continually betraying her votaries. They ascribed them to the agency of Satan ; thus representing him, "who was a liar from the beginning," as contributing to the diffusion of the truth -- "the spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience" as promoting the cause of holiness and as co-operating in the overthrow of his own kingdom, with HIM who "was manifested to destroy the works of the Devil!!!"

The prophecies of our Lord, as well as his miracles, were many, and of great variety. They were not delivered with pomp and parade, but rose out of occasions, and seem to have resulted, for the most part, from his affectionate solicitude for those who then were, or might afterwards become, his disciples. While the fulfillment of some of these predictions was confined to the term of his mission and the limits of his country, the accomplishment of others extended to all nations, and to every future age of the world.

Of the prophecies which have already been fulfilled, few, perhaps, are so interesting in themselves, or so striking in their accomplishment, as those which relate to the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the signal calamities which every where befel the Jewish nation. The chief of our Lord's predictions, relative to these events, are contained in Matt. 24 ch. Mark, 13 ch., Luke 21 ch., Ib. 19 ch. 41-44 ; Ib. 23 ch. 27-30 : and we may with confidence appeal to the facts which verify them as conclusive and incontrovertible proofs of the divinity of his mission. Before, however, we enter upon this illustration, it may be gratifying to the reader, and add considerably to the interest of many of the subsequent pages, to give in this place a brief description of that renowned city and its temple.

parousia70 said: ↑
The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Jesus parousia would occur within the lifetime of His apostles.
(Matt 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32,Matt 16:28, Luke 9:27,Matt 10:23)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that all things written would be fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
(Luke 21:20-22)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that as it was in Noah's day, So would the coming of the Son of Man be. The wicked would be taken in Judgement, and the rightesous would be "left behind" on earth.
(Matt 24:37-41)

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klutedavid said: ↑
Are you referring to Partial Preterism or Full Preterism?

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parousia70 said: ↑
While I'm certain full preterists hold that these scriptures mean what I contend they do, none of them is a view EXCLUSIVE to full pretereism, as all of them are held by many, if not most, partial preterists as well.

As a Catholic, I personally subscribe to partial preterism, though I'm more of a "maximum" partial preterist than most Catholics I've met...
Not all, but most.

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I have found there are so many flavors of preterism that one needs a program guide to wade thru it all.
The same goes for Futurism........EGADS!

Partial Preterism, Full Preterism vs Hyper Preterism

LittleLambofJesus said:

On another thread, there was this link mentioning F P vs H P.
I have never heard much of H P
Discuss.......

Christ, Israel, and the fall of Jerusalem

Discussion on Consistent Preterism and the Impact of AD70 as the Terminal Date (2015)


I think we need to distinguish between full preterism and hyper-preterism.
Full preterism is an optimistic eschatology.
Don’t think I can say the same thing about hyper-preterism, which has led some right out of Christianity

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Steve Atkerson: Will the Real Preterism Please Stand Up? (2008) Historical Preterism @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology
Will the Real Preterism Please Stand Up?

By Stephen E. Atkerson
02/19/07

　Lately I have spoken with several folks who, when they heard the word “preterism,” automatically thought of the end time heresy that the actual second coming of Jesus was in A.D. 70. These same people were surprised to learn that there are really two types of preterism.

　The one most talked about today is that which proposes that the second coming was in A.D. 70 and is an already past event, never to be repeated. This form of preterism is highly controversial. In fact, it is heretical. It is a relatively new kid on the theological block. This fact alone should sound a heresy warning alarm. Those who advocate it prefer to call it full preterism. It began in earnest in the 1870s with the writings of a congregational pastor in England named James Stuart Russell. He first chose to publish his heretical preterist book anonymously, and not until after his retirement from the pastorate did he allow his name to appear on a subsequent edition.

　The other type of preterism is much older, and not nearly so controversial. This older view holds that many of the prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, but that the actual second coming of Jesus is still a future event. Thus, this older preterism is within the bounds of orthodox Christianity (as defined by the historic creeds and confessions of literally every denomination). This older view could be called classical or orthodox preterism. In fact, in many theological works it is often even spelled differently, as “praeterism.” See preteristsite.com.

　Throughout the past 2,000 years there have always been Christians who understand some of the prophecies of the New Testament to have been fulfilled in A.D. 70. Yet all of these believers all still looked forward to the second coming as a future event. None of them taught that the actual second coming was in the first century. One of the first people to advocate heretical preterism was Russell back in the 1870s. Throughout history, the overwhelming majority of preterists held to the orthodox preterist view.

BABerean2 said:

The Father of the "son" in Matthew chapter 21 is the landowner who allowed the Romans to destroy the city and the sanctuary during 70 AD, in the same way that He allowed the Babylonians to do so during an earlier time.

Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

The Son remained seated at the Father's right hand during 70 AD.
He did not return to planet earth in the same way that He left in Acts of the Apostles 1:11.


Luke 21:25-28 lies in the future.

.

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Luke and Revelation go together like frosting on a cake.
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-consummation<4930> of the Age?
Mark 13
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully-consummated<4931>.

Luke uses the same Greek word G1096 as used in Revelation 16:17 concerning the destruction of Jerusalem. You have admitted to viewing earthly Jerusalem in Revelation, but as being future, correct? Only God knows for sure..............

Stick with Luke for Revelation......................

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Luke 21
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be being?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?
-=========================
Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints

===============================
Luke 21
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher! when then shall these be being?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?

Reve 16:17 the seventh Messenger pours out His bowl/vial into the AIR....

Revelation 16:17
and the seventh Messenger pours out His bowl/vial into the air<109>
and came out great Voice from the Sanctuary of the heaven from the Throne saying "it hath become!"<1096> [Revelation 21:6]

Revelation 21:6
And He said to me, “It hath become!"<1096>!
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.


Study Archives Home


Revelation 16:17
and the seventh Messenger pours out His bowl/vial into the air<109>
and came out great Voice from the Sanctuary of the heaven from the Throne saying "it has become!"<1096> [Revelation 21:6]

mkgal1 said:

Waiting for the Lord's presence and Parousia seems to me to be a major theme of the letters of Paul to the church of Thessalonica.

1 Thess 1:7-10 ~ As a result, you have become an example to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. For not only did the message of the Lord ring out from you to Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone out to every place, so that we have no need to say anything more. For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned away from idols to serve the living and true God and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.
​

If they are going to be delivered from the wrath, they must be around when the wrath happens. Look what Luke 21:20 says:

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, Luke 21:20-21
​

This is clearly a reference to A.D. 70 and the destruction of Jerusalem. Notice what Jesus says next:

"......for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."~
Luke 21:22 ​

Paul sure seemed to expect the Thessalonians to be present at the Lord's coming (and I don't expect there to only be ONE coming - I still await a future coming from Him)The “you” here are the first century Thessalonians:

1 Thess 2:19 ~ After all, who is our hope, our joy, our crown of boasting, if it is not you yourselves in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?

1 Thess 3:13 ~ so that He may establish your hearts in blamelessness and holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. Amen.​

Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians was a letter to encourage them - offer them hope and comfort to ease the pain they were experiencing through persecution. What doctrine does Paul offer them to ease their pain?

2 Thessalonians 1:4-8 ~
That is why we boast among God’s churches about your perseverance and faith in the face of all the persecution and affliction you are enduring.

Christ’s Coming

All this is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment. And so you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. After all, it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in blazing fire.​

Was Paul offering false hope? Paul wrote that God was going to grant relief to them (in the first century) by repaying with affliction those that afflicted the Thessalonians. If Paul's prediction failed (and this coming Paul was referring to didn't occur in their lifetime) - wouldn't he be a false prophet?

I believe Jesus taught Paul what he knew about all these teachings - so my belief is that Paul was correct in his prediction.

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mkgal1 said: ↑
Where does is mention "His visible return" in Thessalonians? I believe you're bringing that to the text.

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mkgal1 said:

That doesn't mean His coming that was spoken of in Acts 1 was to be *exactly* as He left.
Acts says this:

Acts 1:9-11 ~ After He had said this, He was taken up as they were watching, and a cloud took Him out of their sight. 10 While He was going, they were gazing into heaven, and suddenly two men in white clothes stood by them. They said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way that you have seen Him going into heaven.”​

.....but Matthew says this:

Matthew 24:27 ~ For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
​

In taking the whole counsel of Scripture into consideration in order to interpret this - I believe the emphasis is on the cloud mentioned in Acts 1. He left in a cloud - and would return in a cloud (Daniel 7:13). "Coming in a cloud" is an apocalyptic symbol for coming in judgement.

ISTM that Jesus forewarned His followers that His return would NOT be a physical bodily coming in their lifetime. They were to watch for signs of His coming - but it doesn't seem to me that He Himself would be seen (just the signs beforehand):

Mark 13:21-23 ~ “Then if anyone tells you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah! and false prophets will rise up and will perform signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the elect. And you must watch! I have told you everything in advance.​

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Hello mkgal.......

This commentator explains it more eloquently than I can concerning the "Parousia/2nd Coming"

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/tablecontents.htm#KOG

Kindgdom Bible Studies
Looking For His Appearing
Book 1 of 2

Chapter 1 of 23

Chapter Title Page

1. The Coming of the Lord 3

2. The Coming of the Holy Spirit 16

3. The Coming of Christ in Men 29

4. The Coming of Christ in the Feasts 42

5. The Coming of Christ in the Feasts (cont.) 55

6. The Coming of Christ in the Feasts (cont.) 67

7. The Coming of Christ in the Feast of Tabernacles 80

8. The Coming of Christ in the Feast of Tabernacles (cont.) 92

9. The Parousia Of Jesus Christ 104

10. The Parousia Of Jesus Christ (cont.) 116

11. The Parousia Of Jesus Christ (cont.) 128

12. The Apokalupsis Of Jesus Christ 141

13. The Epiphaneia Of Jesus Christ 154

14. The Epiphaneia Of Jesus Christ (cont.) 167

15. The Phanerosis Of Jesus Christ 179

16. The Coming of the Morning Star 191

17. The Coming of the Sun of Righteousness 203

18. The Coming of the Sun of Righteousness (cont.) 215

19. The Coming of the Sun of Righteousness (cont.) 227

20. Coming as the Rain 240

21. Coming as the Rain (cont.) 252

22. Coming with Clouds 265

23. Coming with Clouds (cont.) 277
=========================
THE PROBLEM

No subject in the entire Bible has gendered more interest, study, speculation, and theological debate than the return of Christ. It has been interwoven into practically every theory, creed, or doctrine expounded by man. Through the ages it has been the object of scorn and mockery by enemies of truth, and not a few times has it, through ignorance and carnal reasoning, suffered abuse and distortion by well meaning friends. No subject has been more misunderstood or misconstrued than this great truth; and yet it is the hope of the ages. The focus of the entire scriptures is upon this great event. It is interesting to note that when men drew near to God they would receive glimpses of this truth. Certainly the scriptures have much to say about it but only the blessed Spirit of Truth can make it substance in our lives.

It may surprise many of my readers to learn that the Bible nowhere speaks of the "second coming" of Christ. Interesting, isn't it - how some of the major and most commonly accepted doctrines of professing Christianity cannot be found in the Bible? There is no mention whatever of such things as Christmas, Easter, the "immaculate conception" of Mary, mass, popes, church buildings, the Trinity, or - the "second coming"! The Spirit of God has dealt with me severely and consistently through many years that the Lord's people should purge their conversation, purify their terminology, and remove from their consciousness the multitude of non-scriptural and extra-biblical expressions carried over from Mystery Babylon. We have both parroted and coined a great many unscriptural terms that have been so misleading and have led us astray in our understanding of the scriptures and the wonderful plan of God.....................

APPEARING A SECOND TIME

Someone will surely raise the question: Can not the expression "second coming" be justified by the closing verse of the ninth chapter of Hebrews? The passage reads, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear THE SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation" (Heb. 9:28). This verse can be rightly divided only when taken within the context of the verses preceding it. The writer says, "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others; for then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb. 9:24-26).

Some have tried to find three "appearings" in these verses, but there are only two. And the words are taken by unthinking people as though "appear the second time," or "second appearing" were somehow the equivalent of, or a synonym for, the "second coming." But this is merely playing on the language of our English version. The two "appearings" in this passage do not even refer to the so-called "first coming" of the Christ in Bethlehem's manger, or to His "second coming" from heaven at the end of this age. As we shall see later, the Lord has had MANY APPEARINGS on this earth. And here TWO of those many appearings are contrasted, the one with the other, so that one is "first," and the other "second." Here we have His "first" appearing: IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US. "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands ... but into heaven itself, now to APPEAR IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US."................

THE COMINGS OF THE LORD

We have been led to think in terms of the first coming and the second coming, whereas the Bible speaks in terms of the progressive revelation of Jesus Christ. Our God does not talk about the "first coming" and the "second coming" - He talks about the progressive revelation of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. For example, let us take a look at that thought in Micah 5:2, "But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall He come forth unto Me who is to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been of old, from everlasting."

Notice, His "goings forth." The plural is used. The goings forth of the Lord speak about the Lord Jesus Christ! Now, the idea of "goings" has to do with the onward marching of God - the unfolding of the purpose of God, step by step. This is what is indicated here. This is what history is all about, the progressive revelation of Jesus Christ, the marching forward of God, the ever-increasing unveiling of Himself to man. The unfolding of end-time events and God's order for the ages to come, which are the main contents of the last book of the Bible, are called "the Revelation of Jesus Christ."

The term "second coming" is as unfortunate as it is unscriptural. It implies there has been only one coming of Christ thus far. This is not true. It may surprise you to learn that the scripture does not treat His coming at Bethlehem as an isolated event. Although it is important, it is not considered out of proportion to other and comparable events. His coming as a man was a step in the development of God's plan for redemption of the world. Actually, Bethlehem is one in a series of appearances of Christ into the world. By the same token, it is not His last coming to the earth. In order to get the importance of His birth, let's withdraw from Bethlehem and consider His coming there as just one event in the panorama of the ages. Let us consider this theme under the following divisions: (1) Before Bethlehem (2) Beginning at Bethlehem (3) Because of Bethlehem.

An abundance of scripture supports the fact that Christ was before Bethlehem. He is just as real in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament. The great difference, of course, is that HE BECAME FLESH. He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM.." Also He said is, “My Father works hitherto and I work." He and the Father were working long before Bethlehem.

John opened his matchless Gospel with this majestic statement: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God" (Jn. 1:1-2).

The prophet Isaiah had made a very careful distinction about His birth at Bethlehem: "Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given." Micah, the contemporary of Isaiah, had said, as I have pointed out, that He would come forth from Bethlehem but that "His goings forth have been FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING."
His footprints were manifested in this world before the prints were made in His hands.
===========================