2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

mkgal1 · Oct 15, 2019

BABerean2 said:
What you should do is either agree with what is found above, or stop posting on this forum.
If it does not make sense based on the above, you are outside of what is written in scripture.

I have posted repeatedly that I believe in those tenets of faith. What I don't believe are the passages you are using in support of those tenets.

BABerean2 · Oct 15, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I have posted repeatedly that I believe in those tenets of faith.

If you believe in a future resurrection of all the dead, then those of the first century generation will be there, no matter which passage of scripture we argue over.

2 Timothy 4:1 is listed in the Statement of Faith for this forum.
Do you accept this verse, as foretelling the future resurrection, and judgment, of all the dead?

.

mkgal1 · Oct 15, 2019

BABerean2 said:
If you believe in a future resurrection of all the dead, then those of the first century generation will be there, no matter which passage of scripture we argue over.

I've never disagreed with that?? Maybe you should ask more questions instead of charging ahead with accusations.

BABerean2 said:
2 Timothy 4:1 is listed in the Statement of Faith for this forum.
Do you accept this verse?

Of course I "accept the verse". It's included in the Inspired Word.

ewq1938 · Oct 15, 2019

Douggg said:
The purpose of the second coming is not to bring salvation

Of course it is. The dead and living in Christ receive that salvation due to immortality and are said to be saved from the second death as it is rendered powerless over them. That is salvation received.

, but to setup the kingdom of God as the reigning kingdom here on earth.

It was at Jesus's first coming that he brought the way of salvation.

Yes the way but only at the second coming do people receive it because that's when he brings it as the verse says.

There is no such thing as a third coming, agreed. And I have not claimed it. Jesus will come with his armies of heaven, in Revelation 19, at his second coming to the world at large.

Except you also have him coming for the raptured before the second coming so there are three coming in your doctrine. Didn't you also say there was a coming at the resurrection? If so, that's 4 comings.

So when they speak of Jesus appearing a second time, it is because of their personal experience of him having appeared to them directly, comparing what to them was the first time.

So you do have a 4th coming. Birth, resurrection, rapture and the Rev 19 coming...that's 4 comings you speak of.

I only believe in two comings. His birth to his ascension, then the second coming when he returns.

So second appearance in Hebrews 9:18 is in that context. It is not talking about his second coming, but the rapture/resurrection that the disciples had based their hope and prayers.

Paul wrote that the second coming begins, the resurrection of the dead happens and then the living are changed and raptured up to meet Christ during that second coming. It isn't possible to separate the second coming from the rapture.

The rapture/resurrection could happen in the next second.

Paul spoke against that type of belief when he said the second coming could not happen until the falling away and the man of sin was revealed happened. Those haven't happened so Jesus can't come before they do.

There is a distinction between Jesus appearing to believers only and Jesus's coming to the world at large.

Which ends up as 4 comings, some to only believers and some to the world but that isn't the true comings. There are only two comings and both were public and visible. The whole world will see the second coming and the rapture.

,

ewq1938 · Oct 15, 2019

Douggg said:
Where do you think Jesus was the three days his body was in the tomb?

Jesus's resurrection is not a second coming, agreed. And no one is saying that.

Coming and appearance are the same concepts. You are trying to invent comings that are different comings by calling them appearances but this is just word play. The scriptures do not support any of that.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 15, 2019

mkgal1 said: ↑
This article by Hank Hanegraaff, I believe, does a great job at clearing up the confusion of the word "coming" used in Scripture:

He said “I say to all of you, in the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” The generation that crucified Christ would see the very day that he was exalted and enthroned at the right hand of the Mighty One.

BABerean2 said: ↑
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

mkgal1 said:
I should type up my own auto response to this - you use it so often - but my line of thought has been that maybe if I keep rewording my response, at some point, it will maybe eventually make sense to you.
I believe this passage is saying that, basically, the Queen of Sheba and the men of Nineveh were from a whole other culture (they weren't Jewish.....they didn't grow up learning Hebrew Scriptures) but they believed that God is the One and only Lord of Lords - the One True God.

Their testimony of belief - held up against the Jewish UNbelievers of Jesus' day - that lived their lives alongside Him and STILL didn't believe - was what condemned them (and maybe "put them to shame" is a better phrase?). In other words - it was a matter of who was right/who was wrong (who had greater faith because of their background of being non Jews from another culture).

It's not a literal passage. "Rise up" doesn't mean literally dead people coming from the ground. It's their historical testimony that "rose up". And "time of the dead" in Revelation 11 doesn't mean His final return (I don't believe).

Hello mkgal.
I made a thread on those passages in Matt 12 and Luke 11 back in March and alas, only 1 member responded...........

I will put your quote on it to bump it back up for discussion.

Those verses don't just say stand/rouse up in judgment with "THIS PEOPLE" but adds "THIS GENERATION"

The full consummation of the OC AGE and that Generation was fulfilled in 70AD.

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us! when shall these be being? and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-consummation<4930> of the Age?
==================================
Matt 12 and Luke 11 "QUEEN OF SOUTH AND NINEVITES" JUDGING GENERATION
Mar 28, 2019

I came across these verses, which I are part of the 1st century Jerusalem/Temple discourse/parousia, and found some differences in the wording between the Ninevites [standing up G450]nd Queen of the South [being roused G1453].

Both Matthew and Luke mention this event.
I thought it might be interesting to look more closely at these "end time" verses.

450. anistemi from 303 and 2476;
to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right).
303. ana a primary preposition and adverb;
properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.)
2476. histemi a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses);
to stand (transitively or intransitively),

Matthew 12
34 Offspring of vipers! How can you who are evil speak good things? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man from a good treasure brings good things, and an evil man from evil treasure brings evil things. 36 For I say to you that every idle word that people will speak, they will give an answer for it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned." 38 Then some of the Scribes and Pharisees responded and they were saying to him, "Teacher we wish to see a sign from you." 39 But he answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet. 40 For just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, thus The Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

41 `Men Ninevites shall be standing up<450> in the judging with this generation and they shall be condemning it,
That they repent<3340> into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here.

Luke 11:
27 And while he was speaking these things, a woman raised her voice from the crowd and she said to him, "Blessing to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that suckled you." 28 He said to her, "Blessings to those who have heard the word of God and keep it."
29 And when the crowds were assembling he began to say, "This wicked generation seeks for a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet." 30 "For just as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites thus also the Son of the Man shall be to this generation."
31 "The Queen of The South shall stand in judgment with the men of this generation, and she shall condemn them, for she came from the far side of the land that she might hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold, he who is greater than Solomon is here."

32 'Men, Ninevites shall be standing-up<450> in the judging with this generation, and shall be condemning<2632 it,
That they repent<3340> at the proclamation of Jonah and behold! greater/more<4119> of Jonah here
=================
1453. egeiro probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties);
to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying

Matthew 12
34Offspring of vipers! How can you who are evil speak good things? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. 35A good man from a good treasure brings good things, and an evil man from evil treasure brings evil things. 36For I say to you that every idle word that people will speak, they will give an answer for it in the day of judgment. 37For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned." 38Then some of the Scribes and Pharisees responded and they were saying to him, "Teacher we wish to see a sign from you." 39But he answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet. 40For just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, thus The Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. 41The Ninevite men will arise in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, one greater than Jonah is here

42 `A Queen of the south shall be being roused/wakened<1453> in the judging<2920> with this generation and shall be condemning it.
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, more of Solomon here!

Luke 11:
27 And while he was speaking these things, a woman raised her voice from the crowd and she said to him, "Blessing to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that suckled you." 28 He said to her, "Blessings to those who have heard the word of God and keep it."
29 And when the crowds were assembling he began to say, "This wicked generation seeks for a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet." 30 "For just as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites thus also The Son of Man shall be to this generation."

31 'A queen of the south shall be being roused/wakened<1453> in the judging with the men of this generation, and shall be condemning them.
That she came from the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! greater/more than Solomon here!

TO BE CONTINUED.................
=================================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple. And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?[Matthew 24:1-2]

mkgal1 · Oct 15, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Which is no where in what you'd posted below:

BABerean2 said:
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

mkgal1 · Oct 15, 2019

The partial preterist view of the Olivet Discourse (explained by Sam Storms):

Matthew 24:4-28 thus contain a description of events prior to and inclusive of the destruction of the Temple.

1) vv. 4-14 = refer to events that are to characterize the entire period from 33-70 a.d., none of which, in themselves, are signs that the end of the city and its Temple are immediately at hand.

2) vv. 15-28 = refer to the one sign that indicates the prophesied destruction is about to occur. Whereas the events of vv. 4-14 are characteristic of the time, and signal only the beginning of birth pains, v. 15 provides a sign (the "abomination of desolation") that unmistakably confirms the consummation of God's judgment against Israel has come.

The debate surfaces with the interpretation of vv. 29-31. Three views contend for our allegiance: (1) Vv. 29-31 describe the second coming at the end of history. (2) V. 29 describes the present inter-advent age, while vv. 30-31 portray the second coming. (3) Vv. 29-31 have nothing to say about the second coming of Christ. Rather, they are a symbolic description of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. and the inauguration of the church age in which the gospel is proclaimed and the elect of God are saved. ~ Matthew 24 and the Olivet Discourse - Part I

BABerean2 · Oct 15, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Which is no where in what you'd posted below:

Are you telling us "the judgment" in Matthew 12:42 has nothing to do with 2 Timothy 4:1?

.

mkgal1 · Oct 15, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Are you telling us "the judgment" in Matthew 12:42 has nothing to do with 2 Timothy 4:1?

.

That's not what I meant in that post - no. That wasn't the point I was trying to make.

You posted to me (in an accusatory tone):

BABerean2 said:
"What you should do is either agree with what is found above, or stop posting on this forum.
If it does not make sense based on the above, you are outside of what is written in scripture.

......on the tail of just posting about Matthew 12:42 (as if there were something in the creed about Matthew 12:42 and there isn't).

BTW - since you feel so comfortable being the monitor of this forum, I'd invite you to read what's allowed as far as the definition of partial preterism.

Also - I've learned most of my eschatological theology from N.T. Wright (retired Anglican Bishop); Ray Vander Laan; and the Orthodox church. Hardly controversial teachers/sources.

Douggg · Oct 15, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Of course it is. The dead and living in Christ receive that salvation due to immortality and are said to be saved from the second death as it is rendered powerless over them. That is salvation received.

Yes the way but only at the second coming do people receive it because that's when he brings it as the verse says.

Except you also have him coming for the raptured before the second coming so there are three coming in your doctrine. Didn't you also say there was a coming at the resurrection? If so, that's 4 comings.

So you do have a 4th coming. Birth, resurrection, rapture and the Rev 19 coming...that's 4 comings you speak of.

I only believe in two comings. His birth to his ascension, then the second coming when he returns.

Paul wrote that the second coming begins, the resurrection of the dead happens and then the living are changed and raptured up to meet Christ during that second coming. It isn't possible to separate the second coming from the rapture.

Paul spoke against that type of belief when he said the second coming could not happen until the falling away and the man of sin was revealed happened. Those haven't happened so Jesus can't come before they do.

Which ends up as 4 comings, some to only believers and some to the world but that isn't the true comings. There are only two comings and both were public and visible. The whole world will see the second coming and the rapture.

,

You are avoiding the difference between the two appearances and the two comings.

Jesus appeared to only believers after the resurrection. Likewise, when he appears a second time it is for the believers who are looking for him. That's what Hebrews 9:18 says in the text. It is not referring to the world at large. Non-believers are not looking for Jesus's appearance.

Differently, the second coming, the whole world at large will see him coming in great power and glory. Jesus will be returning with the armies of heaven. Those armies are not for the purpose of the rapture/resurrection.

Douggg · Oct 15, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Coming and appearance are the same concepts. You are trying to invent comings that are different comings by calling them appearances but this is just word play. The scriptures do not support any of that.

It is not a word play. It is different events because the appearing(s) was/will be to believers only.

Do you acknowledge that Jesus only appeared to believers after the resurrection and before he ascended to heaven?

Douggg · Oct 15, 2019

ewq1938 said:
I only believe in two comings. His birth to his ascension, then the second coming when he returns.

Unbelievers did not see Jesus after his resurrection. He did not appear to them.

Jesus's first coming ended on the cross.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus's first coming > ending on the cross > then he descended into the lower parts of the earth which he led captivity captive (Ephesians 4:8-10) > then the resurrection > his first appearing to believers > his ascension to heaven > his second appearing to believers at the rapture/resurrection > Jesus returning with the saints at his second coming.

ewq1938 · Oct 15, 2019

Douggg said:
Jesus appeared to only believers after the resurrection.

That isn't important and has nothing to do with the rapture. He doesn't only appear to believers when he returns and people are raptured. He is still in the clouds when the people raptured meet with him, then he descends and the entire world sees him.

ewq1938 · Oct 15, 2019

Douggg said:
Unbelievers did not see Jesus after his resurrection.

They saw him but didn't know or even care who he was. Even some disciples saw and didn't know who he was.

Jesus's first coming ended on the cross.

No, it ended when he ascended. His second coming is when he returns.

BABerean2 · Oct 16, 2019

mkgal1 said:
That's not what I meant in that post - no. That wasn't the point I was trying to make.

You did not answer the question.

Is "the judgment" in Matthew 12:42 related to the judgment in 2 Timothy 4:1?

.

mkgal1 · Oct 16, 2019

BABerean2 said:
You did not answer the question.

Is "the judgment" in Matthew 12:42 related to the judgment in 2 Timothy 4:1?

.

Right now I'm thinking that Matthew 12 is about the judgement on apostate Jerusalem - the Days of Vengeance. So I do believe that's distinct from 2 Timothy 4. This forum recognizes that in partial preterism.

BABerean2 · Oct 16, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Right now I'm thinking that Matthew 12 is about the judgement on apostate Jerusalem - the Days of Vengeance. So I do believe that's distinct from 2 Timothy 4. This forum recognizes that in partial preterism.

How is that related to those from Nineveh, and the Queen of the South, if it is not about the future judgment?

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 16, 2019

mkgal1 said: ↑
Right now I'm thinking that Matthew 12 is about the judgement on apostate Jerusalem - the Days of Vengeance. So I do believe that's distinct from 2 Timothy 4. This forum recognizes that in partial preterism.

BABerean2 said:
How is that related to those from Nineveh, and the Queen of the South, if it is not about the future judgment?

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
.

Hello BAB....I created this thread just for you..........

1Co 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.

Matt 12 and Luke 11 "QUEEN OF SOUTH AND NINEVITES" JUDGING GENERATION

Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

=========================================
450. anistemi from 303 and 2476;
to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right).
303. ana a primary preposition and adverb;
properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.)
2476. histemi his'-tay-mee a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses);
to stand (transitively or intransitively),

Matt 12:41 `Men Ninevites shall be standing up<ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging<2920> with this generation and they shall be condemning it,
that they reform into the proclamation of Jonah and Lo! more of Jonah here.

Luk 11:32
'Men of Nineveh shall be resurrecting/standing-up <ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging<2920> with this generation, and shall be condemning<2632 it,
because they reformed<3340> at the proclamation<2782> of Jonah; and behold! greater/more<4119> of Jonah here!

1453. egeiro probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties);
to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying

Matt 12:42

`A Queen of the south shall be being roused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging<2920> with this generation and shall be condemning it.
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, more of Solomon here!

Luk 11:31
'A queen of the south shall be being roused<1453> in the judging with the men of this generation, and shall be condemnin them, because she came from the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! greater/more than Solomon here!
================================
Demise of 1st century "Queen" Jerusalem........

She who sits as queen, not widow, never mourns

Revelation 18: 7 As much as glorifies herself, and indulges be giving to her tormenting and mourning that in her heart she is saying 'I am sitting a Queen and widow not I am and mourning not I shall be seeing'.

Lam 1:1 How deserted lies the City, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations! She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.
======================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings. Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground. And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished ! -- This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"

mkgal1 · Oct 16, 2019

BABerean2 said:
How is that related to those from Nineveh, and the Queen of the South, if it is not about the future judgment?

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

I'm going to post my response in LLoJ's thread on that topic.

2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

Are the 2 parousias of Partial Preterism biblical?

Yes

No

I don't know right now

Other

I have never heard of it

The Parousia was fulfilled in the 1st century

There is only 1 Parousia

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Newbie

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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