2 or 3 questions...

[Rickymdogg123]

Hello

First of all I wouldn't call myself an atheist, I used to believe in Christianity but as I got a little older and started to think more there were some things that didn't seem to make sense....I asked these questions at Youth Groups etc... but the answers I was given didn't satisfy my questions.
I'll post a few here and see what answers people can provide:

1. God in the Bible is described as being 'all knowing' in that he knows everything about you, and what will happen to you in the future...he knows this about everyone and everything...I'm not sure of the verse but I know I've read it.

Therefore when God started out creating the Heavens and the Earth...and subsequently man, he knew exactly how it was going to pan out...he knew that Eve would eat the fruit of the tree, (which in my opinion was a bad idea even putting it there!) he knew that man would fall into Sin.

Therefore if God knows everything about you, then he knows whether you are going to Hell or Heaven...he knows this as you are being formed in your mothers womb, (another verse in the Bible I think...) so it seems to me that God has created a vast number of people who he knows are going to go to hell anyway, and there is nothing they can do about it...this doesn't exactly strike me as the act of a loving God.
This strikes me more as being the act of a cruel 'dictator', creating life that is pre-destined for eternal damnation, and there is not a thing that person can do about it.
I know it's not exactly a question as such, but I'd be interested to hear what Christians say about this, although I remain doubtful as to whether I receive a response that satisfies this 'question'.

2. In many verses/stories in the Old Testament, God instructs his 'chosen people' to attack certain cities/peoples and 'kill all the men, women and children'.
Yet we are told 'Do not Murder'....how does this fit in with the theme of a loving God...especially the part where they are instructed to kill the children, why are innocent children being murdered under God's instruction??

3. Again, and I'm sorry about this, but I don't know the exact location of this in the Bible (it's a while since I've read it ;-) ), but I remember a verse saying '...and God hardened his heart...' ( I think it may have been David ). I'm sure you'll recognise the verse though.
My question is this...surely this act of God 'hardening his heart' interferes with free will?

Anyway any replies would be great, I'd be really interested in what people have to say about these thoughts...

 

[wnwall]

Hello

Hi Ricky, welcome to the forums.

1. God in the Bible is described as being 'all knowing' in that he knows everything about you, and what will happen to you in the future...he knows this about everyone and everything...I'm not sure of the verse but I know I've read it.

Correct.

Therefore when God started out creating the Heavens and the Earth...and subsequently man, he knew exactly how it was going to pan out...he knew that Eve would eat the fruit of the tree, (which in my opinion was a bad idea even putting it there!) he knew that man would fall into Sin.

Yes.

Therefore if God knows everything about you, then he knows whether you are going to Hell or Heaven...he knows this as you are being formed in your mothers womb, (another verse in the Bible I think...) so it seems to me that God has created a vast number of people who he knows are going to go to hell anyway, and there is nothing they can do about it...

"Nothing they can do about it" is a bad way to think about it, but other than that, yes, God did create many individuals knowing they would go to hell. The phrase "nothing they can do about it" is wrong because God sends people to hell based on their own wickedness, so whether or not God knew they would fall to sin and allowed them to fall to sin is irrelevant in determining whether they deserve the wrath of God for their rejection and hatred of him. The guilty are still guilty.

This strikes me more as being the act of a cruel 'dictator', creating life that is pre-destined for eternal damnation, and there is not a thing that person can do about it.this doesn't exactly strike me as the act of a loving God.

Then you need to redefine your definition of love. There is not a single person on this planet that deserves for the sun to rise over this wicked Earth tomorrow morning. But for billions of people who hate God and want nothing to do with the one who gives them every breath, the sun will rise tomorrow. God is a very patient and loving God.

God is the most valuable thing that exists. This is very important to understand when thinking about the love of God, so I'm going to elaborate to try to help put some perspective in your thoughts: There is not one person who has ever lived, and not one glorious invention that has ever been made that is of more value than the living God. Movie stars, athletes, democracy, nations, your wife, your kids, all of it is worthless compared to the surpassing worth of our Creator, the one who gives us life.

Therefore, it is love for God to punish those who actively attempt to diminish his worth. If God did not uphold the value of his glory for his people, he would not be a loving God. If Jesus did not uphold his Father's worth in executing judgment on those who have belittled his Father, he would not be loving. Hell exists because God is loving. It may not be loving toward those in hell, but it is out of utmost love for the bride of Christ and Christ himself that God punishes those who try to usurp his glory in order to display his infinite value.

If God did not uphold what was most valuable in the universe, he would be unloving.

Please see John Piper's Open Letter to Michael Prowse for a lengthier discussion on the supreme value of God's glory:

[T]he reason God seeks our praise is not because he won't be complete until he gets it. He is seeking our praise because we won't be happy until we give it. This is not arrogance. It is love.
​

I know it's not exactly a question as such, but I'd be interested to hear what Christians say about this, although I remain doubtful as to whether I receive a response that satisfies this 'question'.

Paul addressed it. See Romans 9,

Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.
​

2. In many verses/stories in the Old Testament, God instructs his 'chosen people' to attack certain cities/peoples and 'kill all the men, women and children'. Yet we are told 'Do not Murder'....

To murder is to kill out of anger or hatred, not to kill in war, especially a war God ordained (which doesn't happen anymore by the way, not until Jesus returns).

how does this fit in with the theme of a loving God...especially the part where they are instructed to kill the children, why are innocent children being murdered under God's instruction??

There is no such thing as an "innocent child." Saint Augustine, back in the 4th century, wrote in his Confessions that if he had had the strength he would not have only cried out for more milk as a baby but strangled his mother and demanded his hunger be satisfied. Children are just as wicked as the rest of us; their weakness in physical strength is not a display of the depth of their sinfulness.

3. Again, and I'm sorry about this, but I don't know the exact location of this in the Bible (it's a while since I've read it ;-) ), but I remember a verse saying '...and God hardened his heart...' ( I think it may have been David ). I'm sure you'll recognise the verse though.
My question is this...surely this act of God 'hardening his heart' interferes with free will?

The verses you are talking about may be the verses that speak of God hardening Pharaoh's heart.

And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go" (Exodus 4:21).
​

To answer your question, the term "free will" is poorly defined and used in different ways by different people, but in the context you are speaking most people think of what's called libertarian free will when they say "free will", which is basically the belief that man's will is self-determining.

My question to you is what makes you think you have a will that is self-determining? Can you choose what you want to want? Or do you simply choose to do what you already wanted? To give you an example, why do you eat when you eat? It's likely because you get hungry. But can you get hungry whenever you want? You can choose to get off the couch and go get a bag of chips, but you will only choose to do so if your comfort level from being satisfied by the chips is judged as greater than the comfort level from staying on the couch. In other words, you can make choices, but your will is not self-determining.

Blaise Pascal said,

All men seek happiness. This is without exception. Whatever different means they employ, they all tend to this end. The cause of some going to war, and of others avoiding it, is the same desire in both, attended with different views. The will never takes the least step but to this object. This is the motive of every action of every man, even of those who hang themselves.
​

All of this up to this point is nice and interesting, but it's all meaningless to Christianity if the Bible teaches otherwise. However, the Bible doesn't teach otherwise. You cannot find a single verse in the Bible which teaches the self-determining will of man. On the contrary, the Bible teaches the human will is in bondage to sin and never seeks God unless God breathes new life into a person. The Bible teaches that all of us have gone astray and rejected God but he, out of his own goodness, speaks light into dark, cold, dead hearts.

For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 4:6).
​

The way RC Sproul explains the verses speaking of God hardening Pharaoh's heart is to say that God gives Pharaoh rope to hang himself. All of us are inwardly wicked and in and of ourselves have no desire to do good, but God graciously works in us to do good. So for God to harden Pharaoh's heart is for God to remove his grace from Pharaoh -- which was enabling any good he had in his heart -- and allowing him to destroy himself.

Jonathan Edwards used the example of the warming nature of the sun's light,

If the sun were the proper cause of cold and darkness, it would be the fountain of these things, as it is the fountain of light and heat: and then something might be argued from the nature of cold and darkness, to a likeness of nature in the sun. . . . Sin is not the fruit of any positive agency or influence of the most High, but on the contrary, arises from the withholding of his action and energy, and under certain circumstances, necessarily follows on the want of his influence.
​

Darkness does not exist because of a direct influence of the sun. Rather darkness exists because of the absence of the sun. In the same way sin does not exist because of a direct influence of God but because of a withdrawal of his good influence.

For more on this I highly recommend RC Sproul's Chosen By God and John Piper's Is God Less Glorious Because He Ordained That Evil Be?

Also, Piper just finished a 7 part series titled Spectacular Sins and their Global Purpose in the Glory of Christ in which he shows how particular sins in the Bible were planned by God to bring about good. One message concerned the fall of Satan and another concerned the fall of Adam. My personal favorite from the series was the one on the installation of the human king in Israel. Initially God ruled Israel as a theocracy, but in the day of Samuel the Israelites rejected God as king and demanded a human king. Piper shows how the installment of a human king in Israel was always a part of God's plan as a way of creating a lineage from which his Son, Jesus, would come to reign as king of Israel -- and the world.

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today (Genesis 50:20).
​

Feel free to respond here or PM me if you'd like. I imagine you will have more questions.

Nathan

 

[Digit]

Hello Rickymdogg123

Hello
1. God in the Bible is described as being 'all knowing' in that he knows everything about you, and what will happen to you in the future...he knows this about everyone and everything...I'm not sure of the verse but I know I've read it.

There are a few that talk about God's omniscience of all things withing His creation.

Therefore when God started out creating the Heavens and the Earth...and subsequently man, he knew exactly how it was going to pan out...he knew that Eve would eat the fruit of the tree, (which in my opinion was a bad idea even putting it there!) he knew that man would fall into Sin.

I'm not sure about this. I mean it seems like a logical way to think about it, but then one has to wonder as that would seem like a cruel game to me. God the big man, setting us up for a history of pain and suffering. I know that free will comes into play at various points in our lives, and I know from Genesis that God has all eternity to arrange events in our lives to the best possible outcome. We don't know all the details of what occurred in Eden, as the account talks of the main events, so there could be a great deal more to it.

Therefore if God knows everything about you, then he knows whether you are going to Hell or Heaven...he knows this as you are being formed in your mothers womb, (another verse in the Bible I think...) so it seems to me that God has created a vast number of people who he knows are going to go to hell anyway, and there is nothing they can do about it...this doesn't exactly strike me as the act of a loving God.

No it doesn't I agree, and I don't think it's the case either. There seems to be a bit of a rise in a sort of militant Christian activity, where people actually rejoice in the damnation of the wicked... I don't subscribe to this myself. I don't think Jesus does either, He preached compassion for all, particularly the wicked. He loved the sinner, not the sin so the popular saying goes.

Anyhow, I think that our free will can determine our path, and that God knows all available paths through life for us. I do not believe He purposefully creates anyone with the knowledge that they will be condemned.

This strikes me more as being the act of a cruel 'dictator', creating life that is pre-destined for eternal damnation, and there is not a thing that person can do about it.
I know it's not exactly a question as such, but I'd be interested to hear what Christians say about this, although I remain doubtful as to whether I receive a response that satisfies this 'question'.

We get very similar questions as to this throughout the Outreach forum, it's often referred to as 'God and suffering', and asks how can God love us, but let us suffer so. An extended version, is 'a loving God and Hell'. These concepts seem mutually exclusive. I'm not sure you will find a great unified answer from all Christians, but we are told through the Bible that faith is important to us. What we cannot understand, we have to trust God with. Hebrews 11 is a good verse that talks about what faith is, and what it brings. I know many people who get caught up trying to reason out a lot of God's reasoning behind things, and it's the downfall of others, who lose faith due to having answers out of reach of them.

Sometimes we need to accept that we may not be able to fathom what God's reasons or intent is.

Isaiah 55:9
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I think wnwall covered the rest quite well.

Cheers!
Digit

 

[Rickymdogg123]

"Nothing they can do about it" is a bad way to think about it, but other than that, yes, God did create many individuals knowing they would go to hell.
========================================

That still strikes me as very macabre, especially as you just admit it like that. I find it hard to accept that this is a God of Love we are talking about here.
I still believe that predestination is in confliction with the concept of accepting Christ as your saviour.
For example - just say that I have been predestined to go to hell...that is something that has already been determined about me, and which I have no control over. No matter what I do, I wouldn't be a true Christian...because it's already been pre-ordained that I can't be....this whole topic really fries my head, and I'm not really sure if the question can be answered at all.

==========================================

Hell exists because God is loving. It may not be loving toward those in hell, but it is out of utmost love for the bride of Christ and Christ himself that God punishes those who try to usurp his glory in order to display his infinite value.

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To be honest, what you have described sounds to me more like God's love for himself, not for me.

=======================================

There is no such thing as an "innocent child." Saint Augustine, back in the 4th century, wrote in his Confessions that if he had had the strength he would not have only cried out for more milk as a baby but strangled his mother and demanded his hunger be satisfied. Children are just as wicked as the rest of us; their weakness in physical strength is not a display of the depth of their sinfulness.


========================================

Just because the child is sinful, you think that is justification for them to be put to the sword? Tell me this, if you were in the position of one of 'God's people' back in biblical times, could you follow his instruction and kill a child? I know I certainly couldn't do that.
I find it strange you try to justify the children being slaughtered here, to a person like me I think it was an evil act.
=======================================
Anyway thanks for your replies, if you can get back to me again that would be great...apologies of my pathetic use of the quoting system!

 

[Digit]

Hey Rickymdogg123,

Just FYI, if you hit "Post Quotes" when you reply to a post, it will open the advanced reply window, and within it you can copy the line that first appears which looks like:

"quote=Rickymdogg123;39698460" with [ ] around it.

Then just paste that at the start of each part you want to quote, and end it with:

"/quote" also with [ ] around it.

Hope that helps.

In regards to:

That still strikes me as very macabre, especially as you just admit it like that. I find it hard to accept that this is a God of Love we are talking about here.
I still believe that predestination is in confliction with the concept of accepting Christ as your saviour.
For example - just say that I have been predestined to go to hell...that is something that has already been determined about me, and which I have no control over. No matter what I do, I wouldn't be a true Christian...because it's already been pre-ordained that I can't be....this whole topic really fries my head, and I'm not really sure if the question can be answered at all.

If that actually is the way it works, then I am going to have some severe issues with God when I finally come face to face with Him. Especially because we are taught in scripture that we are to love God with all our heart, I find the idea quite sadistic and repulsive, and if God is love (which the Bible also says) then I highly suspect this isn't the case. Perhaps we just don't have an answer for it, in which case I intend to put my faith in God, that he knows best and trust Him. Afterall, what more can we do?

Cheers,
Digit

 

[wnwall]

That still strikes me as very macabre, especially as you just admit it like that. I find it hard to accept that this is a God of Love we are talking about here.

During Jesus' earthly ministry, we know of two great disasters that happened which the people asked him about. We can relate in our day to disasters such as the recent Minneapolis bridge collapse or the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami or the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center. These were disasters that the people of Jesus' day would have seen and thought, "Where is God during this suffering?"

The first was the murder of Galileans who were offering sacrifices in the temple. Pilate stormed in and slaughtered the Galileans there along with their sacrifices.

The other disaster was the collapse of a tower in Siloam that took the lives on 18 men.

So some people came to Jesus and asked him, "Why would God allow such things to happen? Is it because the Galileans were exceedingly wicked that God allowed them to be slaughtered along with their sacrifices?"

And Jesus responded,

Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish (Luke 13).
​

In other words Jesus told them, "Do not be surprised that the Galileans suffered in this way. Be surprised that you woke up this morning and were given another day to repent."

God doesn't owe us anything but his wrath. If you think it is surprising that God sends people to hell, you don't get it. You don't see his infinite worth and their deserving judgment. You don't see your own wickedness and lack of gratitude. If you did, you would be amazed that God is still giving you breath and causing your heart to beat. If you did you would rejoice at the indescribable love and patience and mercy of God to allow sinners like us to live another day, which many of us will use to demean his glory.

Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust (Matthew 4:44-45).
​

For example - just say that I have been predestined to go to hell...that is something that has already been determined about me, and which I have no control over. No matter what I do, I wouldn't be a true Christian...because it's already been pre-ordained that I can't be....

Perspective is everything. You're still thinking as if God owes you something; God doesn't owe you a thing. The only thing any of us deserves from God is his wrath.

But in his infinite wisdom and love, God chose, from before the foundation of the world, to save some from his wrath, undeservingly. And he promised to send Jesus from the descendants of Abraham through which many would be made children of the promise to Abraham through faith in the Lamb who was slain for our iniquity.

So those who receive God's wrath receive what they have earned while those who receive God's mercy are given what his Son has earned because his Son was given the wrath that they deserved. The reprobate receive damnation deservingly, while the elect receive salvation undeservingly.

To be honest, what you have described sounds to me more like God's love for himself, not for me.

Please read Piper's letter to Michael Prowse and see if you still feel that way. For God to exalt himself is the greatest act of love.

Just because the child is sinful, you think that is justification for them to be put to the sword?

It's interesting how petty we can make sin sound. Sin is a thousand times more horrific than death by the sword. To kill a human is to kill a creature. To sin is to inwardly -- in your heart -- murder the Creator. Just as the baby who cries instead of strangling, the only reason you have not murdered God is because you lack the strength to do it. That goes for me as well, as for all of us.

He was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53).

Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God (1 Peter 3:18).
​

 

[Rickymdogg123]

Ok I take issue with a number of your points...

God doesn't owe us anything but his wrath. If you think it is surprising that God sends people to hell, you don't get it. You don't see his infinite worth and their deserving judgment. You don't see your own wickedness and lack of gratitude.

Well as God made the earth he knew how it was going to pan out surely, he knew man was going to sin; he made us weak and susceptible to temptation...what does he expect then when people sin?
As God started out making the earth, he knew exactly how everything was going to turn out, It's almost like he's moving pieces around on a giant chess board...

But in his infinite wisdom and love, God chose, from before the foundation of the world, to save some from his wrath, undeservingly.

But God knew this was all going to happen as he made the earth, so he is getting wrathful at something that he could have prevented from the very beginning...so in his 'wisdom' he decides to send everyone to hell, except for the 'elect' who get to enter heaven undeservingly...I'm sorry but again this does not strike me as a just God in the slightest.

Please read Piper's letter to Michael Prowse (had to remove the link sorry, don't have enough posts!) and see if you still feel that way. For God to exalt himself is the greatest act of love.

Thanks for the link...I like that letter, it has helped explain that issue a little better, although I still remain undecided.

To sin is to inwardly -- in your heart -- murder the Creator. Just as the baby who cries instead of strangling, the only reason you have not murdered God is because you lack the strength to do it. That goes for me as well, as for all of us.

God made us knowing we would be sinful beings though, weak and susceptible to temptation.

I'm sure one day I'll choose which side of the fence I'll be on, but if God does exist then it's already been decided what I'll do...I can't suddenly 'choose' to believe in something, I can pretend that I do but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't wash with God.

 

[wnwall]

Yes, God did create us knowing we would sin. Our falling to sin was a part of God's plan in creation. There isn't much I'm going to argue with you about on what you've said, because you're right, but I think you still lack perspective, so here's a short clip from a Piper sermon to try to put some perspective on this conversation:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=m0jwRkPW1D4
(taken from the sermon Where Is God?)
​

Think about this: What was God's main purpose in creation? Why did God create us?

It was not because he was lonely. God has always been infinitely satisfied in the company he has in his Son and the Holy Spirit. From all eternity the Son has brought the Father joy and the Father has brought the Son joy. God did not create out of a lack or want of anything.

Rather, the Father created the world as a present for his Son, out of an overflow of the love he has for his Son. Colossians 1:16 says, "All things were created through him and for him."

Do not be astounded that God created the world knowing that men would fall to sin. Be astounded that God created the world knowing that he would send his Son to die in the world that was created for his Son.

The purpose God had in creating the world was to exalt his Son, to lift up his Son, to display his Son's glory, to honor his Son, to show his affection for his Son. And from before creation God has always known that his Son would come, be humiliated, and die in this world, being murdered by finite, created beings.

All who dwell on earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain (Revelation 13:8).
​

There's a book, and God has written in that book a list of names which will not bow to the beast. The name of the book is "the book of life of the Lamb who was slain", and the book was written "before the foundation of the world". God knew we would sin before he created us, and he had already made plans to send the Lamb to be slain for our sins.

As John Piper said in the clip above, the reason God created the world the way he did is because this is the world where the best display of divine love could happen. Only in a world with sin could Jesus die and display the love of the Father. And only in a world where Jesus could most display the love of the Father could we have the most joy. And only in a world where we could have the most joy in God could Jesus be most glorified.

God created the world to glorify his Son, and part of his plan to glorify his Son most greatly was that we would sin and his Son would die for our sins and be resurrected and seated on a heavenly throne.

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28).
​

 

[tapero]

Hello

First of all I wouldn't call myself an atheist, I used to believe in Christianity but as I got a little older and started to think more there were some things that didn't seem to make sense....I asked these questions at Youth Groups etc... but the answers I was given didn't satisfy my questions.
I'll post a few here and see what answers people can provide:

1. God in the Bible is described as being 'all knowing' in that he knows everything about you, and what will happen to you in the future...he knows this about everyone and everything...I'm not sure of the verse but I know I've read it.

Therefore when God started out creating the Heavens and the Earth...and subsequently man, he knew exactly how it was going to pan out...he knew that Eve would eat the fruit of the tree, (which in my opinion was a bad idea even putting it there!) he knew that man would fall into Sin.

Therefore if God knows everything about you, then he knows whether you are going to Hell or Heaven...he knows this as you are being formed in your mothers womb, (another verse in the Bible I think...) so it seems to me that God has created a vast number of people who he knows are going to go to hell anyway, and there is nothing they can do about it...this doesn't exactly strike me as the act of a loving God.
This strikes me more as being the act of a cruel 'dictator', creating life that is pre-destined for eternal damnation, and there is not a thing that person can do about it.
I know it's not exactly a question as such, but I'd be interested to hear what Christians say about this, although I remain doubtful as to whether I receive a response that satisfies this 'question'.

2. In many verses/stories in the Old Testament, God instructs his 'chosen people' to attack certain cities/peoples and 'kill all the men, women and children'.
Yet we are told 'Do not Murder'....how does this fit in with the theme of a loving God...especially the part where they are instructed to kill the children, why are innocent children being murdered under God's instruction??

3. Again, and I'm sorry about this, but I don't know the exact location of this in the Bible (it's a while since I've read it ;-) ), but I remember a verse saying '...and God hardened his heart...' ( I think it may have been David ). I'm sure you'll recognise the verse though.
My question is this...surely this act of God 'hardening his heart' interferes with free will?

Anyway any replies would be great, I'd be really interested in what people have to say about these thoughts...

There is a verse a couple which many take to interpret that God knows wht we will do today, tomorrow, whether we will come to Christ when we or born or not,and in my opinion due to scritpure this is not accurate.

One glaring example: is God wants all to be saved.

So, God does not create humans, one to go to hell and one to heaven, it is a choice we make to believe or not in Christ.

So, no God does not know that you will buy a blue car tomorrow, or that you will fall down today and hurt yourself; He knows as such occurs.

Again, he does not create one to go to hell and another to go to heaven. This is theology, meaning mens teaching on what they believe the predestination verse means, and again imo is not correct at all, as the bible speaks otherwise. That predestinatin verse is about the church the body, not individuals, and is about what will be of the church, what promises are held for the church, but is misinterpreted I believe, where people take it as you described.

God does not sin. Murder is a sin. I am fairly certain He doesn't tell us the why's on this account you gave of wipe out men, women, children, livestock; may be given, but if I recall right, God does not say why.

We know that God is good, and we know that all things are not explained, and so we live by faith, we again, know that God is good, does no wrong as sin is wrong, however sinning means to sin against God.

God is perfect and we do not know His ways, we know much about Him from the bible, but very little in reality as God is infinite and we will spend eternity getting to know Him more and learn of God.

There are not many times when God commanded such be done, there is one or two times..I know of one offhand, and may be one other, where women, children, livestock, man all were to be destroyed.

We can only know about God that whatever reason He had for such was His reason. Again, much is not given us.

So, no, none are created to destruction and others to heaven upon birth.

He gave angels and man freewill, we sinned.

God does not make me sin, I sin on my own.

God does not force anyone to believe in Him, so only those who choose to do.

I wrote this fast, and hope it helps some.

Good questions,
blessings,
tapero

 

[Johnnz]

The issues you raise are good ones. Christians face up to them too. Here are a couple of perspectives.

1) A God who we can encompass within our own minds would not be worthy of worship he wouldn't be very big, or grand or much else. Modern man worships and has faith in his reason and demands explanations. But science itself, the epitome of the reasoned approach remains with any unanswered questions.

2) No one can actually comprehend timelessness, infiniteness or the wisdom and power to create all that is. God, almost by definition, is shrouded in mystery. Scripture clearly recognises this fact. Job is never told why he suffered. He was silenced by a display of majesty that left him deeply aware of his smallness against God. Paul, in Romans, argues with detailed logic then suddenly just states
Rom 9:20-21
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? NIV

Rom 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen. NIV

That is an affront to modern man. But modern man still can't cure the common cold! Let alone answer the mystery of human suffering within history. In criticizing God at least some humility should temper their stance.

3) I don't believe that the verses used as a basis for God's foreknowledge imply that he knows everything down to the last detail in advance. But then, what does the past or the future mean within a context of timelessness?

4) The depth of human suffering is one of the most compelling arguments against God. Except that, take away God and you are still left with the same suffering world, and what response can you arrive at for that? Christians have hope, which in the face of immense suffering cannot be reduced to mere pie in the sky sentiment.

5) Killing children? Terrible. Hard to fathom where God's love fits in. But without God children were and still are killed. What is an explanation for that without reference to any God?

6) God hardening someone's heart? Seems terribly unjust . But that is what God did.God also took upon Himself all that suffering in Christ. I cannot fully comprehend just what that meant, but that's what He did. Just as much a mystery as hardening a pharaoh's heart.

Is my reason the arbiter of all matters?Then it leaves me with far too much unexplained about most things that really matter. S Kennedy's poem captures the essence of our hope in the face of very evident evil.

He begins the poem entitled Faith with this stanza

How do I know that God is good? I don't.​

I gamble like a man. I bet my life​

Upon one side in life's great war. I must,​

I can't stand out. I must take sides. The man​

Who is a neutral in this fight is not​

A man. He's bulk and body without breath,​

Cold leg of lamb without mint sauce. A fool.​

He makes me sick. Good Lord! Weak tea ! Cold slops !​

I want to live, live out, not wobble through​

My life somehow, and then into the dark.​

He concludes it with this one

So through the clouds of Calvary-there shines​

His face, and I believe that Evil dies,​

And Good lives on, loves on, and conquers all-​

All War must end In Peace. These clouds are lies.​

They cannot last. The blue sky is the Truth.​

For God is Love. Such is my Faith, and such​

My reasons for it, and I find them strong​

Enough. And you? You: want to argue? Well,​

I can't. It is a choice. I choose the Christ.​

We find it hard to accept that some questions have no real answer. Christians especially are bothered by that, but that's because they want an asprin faith to take away the pain. Your questions confront that, but without a better answer than a living faith can give, the same very bleak scenarios still cry out for a better one.

John
NZ

 

[RHOcommander]

Dear Rikymdogg123,

I tried to address your three main points. I hope that this post, in addition to those that others have already written, will give you the answers that you need...

• Therefore when God started out creating the Heavens and the Earth...and subsequently man, he knew exactly how it was going to pan out...he knew that Eve would eat the fruit of the tree, (which in my opinion was a bad idea even putting it there!) he knew that man would fall into Sin.

Perhaps; but true relationship involes free will ... does it not? Both parties in a relationship must want to know more about the other and experience what the other is. God wants to love us which He does freely to all humans, however, He also wants us to know and love Him for who He is. Such a relationship is impossible if people could not choose whether or not that is really what they wanted. Without the ability to choose, we would be mindless robots and there would be no virtue in the 'love' we give ... that is, there would be no emotion or desire.

In by eating of the fruit, the real sin was the intention behind the action ... wanting to become as gods ourselves, that is, to decide truth for ourselves, to live without the true God. In a sense to some degree, we were doing exactly the same thing that Satan did that caused His fall. That, was the real sin ... that was the action that pretty much told God to 'stick it' and that we wanted no relationship with Him. Rather than destroy mankind then, God loved us too much for that such that He prophecised about man's redemption through His Son. He provided a way for us to return to Him. In many ways, God was acting like a father (see the Prodical Son story in Luke 15:11-32) always acting in our best interests and always willing to redeem us.

• Therefore if God knows everything about you, then he knows whether you are going to Hell or Heaven...he knows this as you are being formed in your mothers womb, (another verse in the Bible I think...) so it seems to me that God has created a vast number of people who he knows are going to go to hell anyway, and there is nothing they can do about it...this doesn't exactly strike me as the act of a loving God.

As others have pointed out, God does not want any to perish but all to come into a right relationship with Jesus and be forgiven of their sins ... so purposefully pre-destining people to 'burn in hell' seems counter-productive and contradictory to His stated aim. In fact, the Apostle Peter says that the only reason that we are still here and that God's judgment has not happened already is because He wants all to come to repentance. Who knows, you may be the person that He is waiting for to come to repentance before He brings His judgment upon the Earth for our sins.

Rather than the predestination theory, I believe that God knows who will not accept Him and who accept Him because He is outside of time and as such He can see the past, present, and future simultaneously. I haven't got the foggiest as to how this is because we are bound by the time dimension that God created ... but He, as the Creator of time, is by definition outside of it.

Hence, God does not actually decide where people go eternally. People choose their own fates through the way that they deal with Jesus ... God, knowing the future, already knows what they will choose but in no way decides it for them or forces them to rebell. God works in our circumstances to bring people to a place of repentance certainly, but He neither forces people to reject Him nor does He force Himself upon people.

• This strikes me more as being the act of a cruel 'dictator', creating life that is pre-destined for eternal damnation, and there is not a thing that person can do about it.

If predestination were true I would agree with you...

• 2. In many verses/stories in the Old Testament, God instructs his 'chosen people' to attack certain cities/peoples and 'kill all the men, women and children'. Yet we are told 'Do not Murder'....how does this fit in with the theme of a loving God...especially the part where they are instructed to kill the children, why are innocent children being murdered under God's instruction??

Is taking the life of another in war considered 'murder'? No. It is called 'killing' and there is a difference between killing someone and murdering them. It has much to do with the circumstances and the thoughts of the person as there are some circumstances in which taking the life of another is permitted ... such as war, self-defence, capital punishment, and so on. Ultimately, however, every person has sinned countless times and are deserving of God's punishment ... which is death. In fact, the Bible tells us that we are sinners from birth ... isolated and alienated from God because of our sinful nature. As sovereign judge, He has the right to enact His punishment against any people for their sins whenever He wants to.

However, all of that said, if the people return to God in repentance then He is faithful and loving and will forgive them and He will not judge them as He with Nineveh. God's desire for us and the love and grace that He wants to show us win out over His desire for justice every time, but when people refuse that love and grace, then they can only have one option: God's justice.

If you know something of the story about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Old Testament, then you'll find something interesting in the exchange between Abraham and God (Genesis 18:16-33):

Abraham approached the Lord and asked, "Are you really oging to destroy the innocent with the guilty? If there are fifty innocent people in the city, will you destroy the whole city? Won't you spare it in order to save the fifty? Surely you won't kill the innocent with the guilty. That's impossible! You can't do that. If you did, the innocent would be punished along with the guilty. That is impossible. The judge of all the Earth has to act justly."

The Lord answered, "If I find fifty innocent people in Sodom, I will spare the whole city for their sake."

Abraham then continues his negotiations and finally brings it down to ten innocent people. You see, this exchange shows us God's desire to be good and loving over His desire for justice. In fact, God saved the prostitute Rahab and her family when He judged Jericho (Joshua 6:11-14,

As to your question regarding the Israelites and the cities that they destroyed, many of them were very wicked (that is, they were very sinful against the Lord) and as the punishment of sin is death, they rightfully deserved to be destroyed by God through His people. Others were foolish enough to attack the Israelites and were subsequently defeated. Yet others still were allowed by God to enslave His people so that they would come back to Him and when they did, He was faithful to free them.

When we take this and the above disscussion of Abraham and God into consideration, we can see just how evil the people were that God destroyed because if there were even only a handful of innocent people in those cities, God promised that He would spare those cities for their sake.

• 3. Again, and I'm sorry about this, but I don't know the exact location of this in the Bible (it's a while since I've read it ;-) ), but I remember a verse saying '...and God hardened his heart...' ( I think it may have been David ). I'm sure you'll recognise the verse though. My question is this...surely this act of God 'hardening his heart' interferes with free will?

Of course God can impede on free will if He chooses to. He does this, I believe, to achieve a greater purpose or to illustrate His glory, power, and faithfulness. I know of God hardening Pharoah's heart in the book of Exodus and I believe that this was done so that God could both pronounce His judgment on Pharoah and his army (which because of their sins they rightly deserved) but also to demonstrate to the Israelites that He is mighty to save them and faithful and as such He can be trusted to meet their needs.

I mean, imagine seeing God protect you from legions of hostile troops intent on destroying your people. Just how much would you be inspired that God could be trusted to protect you and be faithful?

Kind regards,
Matt.

 

[salida]

wnwall- covered most of it

1)God created man with a free will. In fact, put each individual in a certain time period and certain environment so that they may know Him, Acts 17:26-27.


2) God was protecting his children (Israel) from the surrounding pagan's influence as they worshipped idols and other false gods. Why the children were killed? Because God knew when they grew up they would be pagans like there parents and the pagan torch would continue.

3) God didn't directly harden his heart. This is how Pharaoh reacted to Gods action so his heart got hardened. (The cause and then effect).

 

[ryanb6]

Therefore if God knows everything about you, then he knows whether you are going to Hell or Heaven...he knows this as you are being formed in your mothers womb, (another verse in the Bible I think...) so it seems to me that God has created a vast number of people who he knows are going to go to hell anyway, and there is nothing they can do about it...this doesn't exactly strike me as the act of a loving God.

we all have free will. it is not God's fault if man rejects him.

 

[ryanb6]

I used to believe in Christianity

sorry but the bible doesn't call us to do that. we are to believe in God. I believe in Christianity too in that i believe it exists. a huge question that atheist cannot answer is the fact that many people know God. By the way not all churches and youth groups are good.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers! Matthew 7:21-23

don't put christians into one category, because a lot of prohesing christians are not christians.

Has not my hand made all these things,
and so they came into being?"
declares the LORD.
"This is the one I esteem:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit,
and trembles at my word. Isaiah 66:2
(these are the real christians that hear from God)

 

[Adstar]

Hello

First of all I wouldn't call myself an atheist, I used to believe in Christianity but as I got a little older and started to think more there were some things that didn't seem to make sense....I asked these questions at Youth Groups etc... but the answers I was given didn't satisfy my questions.
I'll post a few here and see what answers people can provide:

1. God in the Bible is described as being 'all knowing' in that he knows everything about you, and what will happen to you in the future...he knows this about everyone and everything...I'm not sure of the verse but I know I've read it.

Therefore when God started out creating the Heavens and the Earth...and subsequently man, he knew exactly how it was going to pan out...he knew that Eve would eat the fruit of the tree, (which in my opinion was a bad idea even putting it there!) he knew that man would fall into Sin.

Therefore if God knows everything about you, then he knows whether you are going to Hell or Heaven...he knows this as you are being formed in your mothers womb, (another verse in the Bible I think...)

All good up to hear but then your conclusions that follow are where you are falling down.

so it seems to me that God has created a vast number of people who he knows are going to go to hell anyway, and there is nothing they can do about it...

Wrong. God knowing someone’s future choices does not mean that God forced them to make that choice or that they had no choice in the choice that they made. God knows our future from his "Foreknowledge" While he has predetermined the eternal consequences of our choices He has in no way forced anyone to make the choice they have made and are making and will make into the future.

this doesn't exactly strike me as the act of a loving God.
This strikes me more as being the act of a cruel 'dictator', creating life that is pre-destined for eternal damnation, and there is not a thing that person can do about it.

Once again Your thinking falls short of the truth. You are a being locked into universal time and space. God created this universal time and space and is not subject or limited to the laws of time and space.

I know it's not exactly a question as such, but I'd be interested to hear what Christians say about this, although I remain doubtful as to whether I receive a response that satisfies this 'question'.

Yes i understand you have thought about this and you have come to the conclusion that your mind came too. But you must acknowledge that maybe your mind is not perfect and you can come to a conclusion and be genuine about it but at the same time you could be genuinely wrong.





All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

2. In many verses/stories in the Old Testament, God instructs his 'chosen people' to attack certain cities/peoples and 'kill all the men, women and children'.
Yet we are told 'Do not Murder'....how does this fit in with the theme of a loving God...especially the part where they are instructed to kill the children, why are innocent children being murdered under God's instruction??

Yes murder is wrong, But you are using the wrong term. What the Israelites did was carry out a sentence passed by God. It was not a murder it was an Execution.

God has the authority and is justified in bringing about the penalty of sin, which is death.

All people are sinners and all people die. therefore you could say that God executes everyone.

God told the Israelis that it was not because of their righteousness that He was bringing them into take the land but it was because of the evil of the people of the land that He was giving it to them. God was making a clear statement to the world, Sin has it's consequences and that consequence is death.

As for the little ones who died. They being innocents are with God in eternity, they never came to the knowledge of Good and Evil and therefore are acceptable to God in eternity. I tell you truly if i had the option of going back in time and being killed when i was a toddler i would gladly take it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

3. Again, and I'm sorry about this, but I don't know the exact location of this in the Bible (it's a while since I've read it ;-) ), but I remember a verse saying '...and God hardened his heart...' ( I think it may have been David ). I'm sure you'll recognise the verse though.
My question is this...surely this act of God 'hardening his heart' interferes with free will?

You are referring to Pharaoh.

If you read the scriptures you will note that yes indeed God did interfere with his free will. But only after Pharaoh had hardened his own heart against the will of God two times. It was only after twice rejecting the will of God that God decided to keep his heart hardened as a judgement against him.

And God will harden the hearts of people in the future who hate the love of the truth and harden their hearts to the Message of Jesus.

Read and take note of the bolded section.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.







All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[hlaltimus]

Question #1 Yes, God is all knowing and does comprehend all things both good and evil yet to be, relative to our experience, but there has never yet been an earthly theologian who properly understood this, nor will there ever be in this life. The cryptic phrase of Revelation 11:17 though gives us only a passing, ellusive hint:

"We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come..."

This phrase does not merely teach that God progresses in His conscious state continually as we consciously progress continually. We really could say that we were, are, and are yet to come, (given we survive until tomorrow,) but this is not what is meant by this verse. It is teaching the infinite conscious moment of God, or in other words: God is at any one point relative to our experience actually standing in our past, our current and our future and all as His one, conscious moment. He doesn't look into the future...He is standing in our future at this, our, moment and looking where he is and not where he will be. Applying this profound thought doctrinally though is something like trying to capture a passing lightning bolt and preserve it somewhere for the future valuation of others....It just won't work.
How this concept applies in our experience, I haven't the foggiest idea, but I do know this: If such a grand, incomprehensible and limitless Being does properly possess any and all time as we know it, then His one conscious moment and determinative judgments upon mankind must of necessity be perfectly just no matter how irreconcilable those judgments may seem to us. He cannot conceivably be opposed, neither by Satan and his deceived hords or by the whole lot of us put together.

We had better do things His way, and those who have so elected to organize their lives, I have always found to be the very happiest and safest lot of all whom I have known.