2 more Questions

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Firslty, I enjoy asking questions here because I do not get attacked for being Protestant. Love shines through you people.

Anyway - about baptism.

I have read many times that the Orthodox Church Immerses, 3 times, and that this is the only accepted way. However, upon other readings, I have found that in some Orthodox teachings, pouring and sprinkling have been accepted as a true baptism as long as it is done in a trinitarian format.

Is this true?

My church Immerses and sprinkles in Trinitarian Format, both adults and babies (not to remove original sin, but as a sign of the Covenant - much like yourselves I believe).

My second question is in regards to music.

I understand that the liturgy in the Orthodox church is sacred - and I respect that fully. However, are you allowed to listen to contemporary worship music outside of church?

 

[Photini]

Firslty, I enjoy asking questions here because I do not get attacked for being Protestant. Love shines through you people.

Anyway - about baptism.

I have read many times that the Orthodox Church Immerses, 3 times, and that this is the only accepted way. However, upon other readings, I have found that in some Orthodox teachings, pouring and sprinkling have been accepted as a true baptism as long as it is done in a trinitarian format.

Is this true?

My church Immerses and sprinkles in Trinitarian Format, both adults and babies (not to remove original sin, but as a sign of the Covenant - much like yourselves I believe).

My second question is in regards to music.

I understand that the liturgy in the Orthodox church is sacred - and I respect that fully. However, are you allowed to listen to contemporary worship music outside of church?

I think the strict adherance to immersion will sadly, vary sometimes. It is my understanding that the Russians are more strict than the Greeks. I attended a Baptism in my own parish, where the baptism was done by "pouring".
I frequently visit a nearby monastery, and therefore trust the counsel of the priestmonks I've talked with, and now confess to. When I talked with Fr. Paisios, who is the abbott at St. Anthony's in AZ (he was here for a feast day) he very firmly counseled me to make sure I was fully immersed three times. (My children will be baptised tomorrow , also by triple immersion.) The monasteries tend to be much more strict though. Especially the Elders and older hieromonks. They are very protective of their flock.
Baptism is definitely looked at as necessary and for the remission of sins. Baptism is the way we are grafted into the Body of Christ, and how we are made participants in the sufferings of Christ, and His Life-Giving Passion. It is considered one of the Holy Mysteries in which we receive Grace. I will try to find some articles on the subject if you like, that could explain much better than my feeble attempts.

In regards to music....well, again, the good Elders I've talked to have lovingly cautioned me against comtemporary Christian music, especially rock music. We are in constant battle with our fleshly passions, which the Enemy will by all means exploit. Rock music and upbeat toe-tappin' tunes can serve to bring an uprising of these passions. (I can attest to this, I was once a "head-banger" listening to 'Christian' metal). We are not 'forbidden' to listen to contemporary music, just warned to do it cautiously if we must do it. Also the caution because in our Church, we have every confidence, is the fullness of the Truth. Preserved as a precious treasure, and undefiled through the ages. I was warned that listening to music that is not from our Church, may cause confusion and serve as a temptation. I have grown very fond of our Byzantine chant, and pretty much listen to that whenever I'm in the car, or just feel like listening to music. But I'm learning the blessedness of silence. (I still listen to some U2 sometimes...I love the song "It's a beautiful day...") Your answers on this question will probably vary alot though.

"Nothing elevates the soul, nothing gives it wings as a liturgical hymn does." --St. John Chrysostom (+407)

"Byzantine music is the only music that has sacredness and sactity, and for this reason a Christian can pray with it. The feeling caused by chanting -- if you are in a position to comprehend it -- is called compunction." -- Photios Kontoglou (+1965)

If I've said anything wrong here, I beg correction and forgiveness.

 

[Photini]

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/baptism_e.htm

Here's a good article about Baptism and Chrismation. Also includes the prayers of the Service of Baptism. (Note that we get to spit on Satan!)

 

[Matrona]

As the root word for "baptism" means "to immerse", the preferred method of baptism in the Orthodox Church is triple immersion. I was baptized into the church as an adult by immersion. It was in a horse trough. (That's me in the picture in my profile!)

However, if circumstances warrant, as a critically ill baby who can't be immersed, or an adult needs to be baptized and the church simply can't obtain any container large enough for an immersion baptism, pouring and sprinkling are allowed. Also, if someone was baptized in another Christian church and he/she was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, upon conversion, there is no need for a second baptism and he/she is chrismated only.

 

[Photini]

. I was baptized into the church as an adult by immersion. It was in a horse trough. (That's me in the picture in my profile!)

.

Me too. The day before, I was worrying over what would be big enough to be baptised in, because the church had nothing. I had the idea to go to the Tractor Supply Co. store, and Behold! A horse trough!! A perfect fit.

My story may scandalize some, and if it does, I ask forgiveness. I had been previously 'baptised' in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by single immersion in a non-denominational church. But being that it was taught to me as a 'symbol' and I believed it as such, I felt the need, and Father Paisios confirmed the absolute necessity of my Orthodox Baptism.

 

[Alfred M]

Just thought I would add to all the wonderful information above, , the writings regarding baptism found in chapter 7 of The Didache ("The Teaching").

"1. And concerning baptism, in this manner baptize: when you have gone over these things, baptize in the name of the Father , and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in running water.

2. If you do not have running water, baptize in other water. If you are not able to use cold water , use warm.

3. And if you have neither, pour water on the head three times, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

4. And before baptism, the one baptizing and the one to be baptized should fast, as well as any others who are able. And you should instruct the one being baptized to fast one or two days before."

In the love of our Saviour,

Alfred

 

[Seraphim Reeves]

I have read many times that the Orthodox Church Immerses, 3 times, and that this is the only accepted way. However, upon other readings, I have found that in some Orthodox teachings, pouring and sprinkling have been accepted as a true baptism as long as it is done in a trinitarian format.

A clear difference has to be made between the exoteric "form" of Baptism (which can be spoken of as being "valid" or "proper" vs. "invalid" or "improper"), and it's interior content.

While the exterior form can exist outside of the Orthodox Church, the content does not. That's a hard saying, and one many pseudo-Orthodox will not tell prospective neophytes, but it is the truth. According to the Apostolic Canons...

Canon XLVI.


We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon XLVII. Let a bishop or presbyter who shall baptize again one who has rightly received baptism, or who shall not baptize one who has been polluted by the ungodly, be deposed, as despising the cross and death of the Lord, and not making a distinction between the true priests and the false. <A name=48>

Thus, there are no true Baptisms outside of the Orthodox Church, if by this we mean re-birth and the remission of sins. However, the form can exist outside of the Church - and this form can be received by the Church, by economy - with the understanding that it is as a vessel being filled. This is why historically, if converts were not baptized, they still could not simply walk into a Church and begin receiving Holy Communion - they had to undergo some sort of formal reception, which in effect was a Baptism (by giving life to the waters they had previously received.)

My church Immerses and sprinkles in Trinitarian Format, both adults and babies (not to remove original sin, but as a sign of the Covenant - much like yourselves I believe).

Well, not quite. Orthodoxy teaches that just as there is a natural birth, there is a spiritual one, and this occurs at the Baptismal Font - we are born to flesh by a mortal mother, we are born to Life by our Holy Mother (Christ's Bride, the Church.)

I understand that the liturgy in the Orthodox church is sacred - and I respect that fully. However, are you allowed to listen to contemporary worship music outside of church?

According to St.John of Kronstadt, what one listens to as far as music is concerned (as a social/entertainment activity) is not to be understood in terms of narrow "styles", but in terms of it's effect. Thus, if music contains an immoral lyrical content, this is unacceptable. However, equally unacceptable would be to listen to music whose composition itself is troubling - if it aroused the various passions, for example, which is in fact the stated goal of much modern music (such as "hard rock" or "heavy metal", or similar things.) Thus, much of "Christian rock" is an oxymoron, since there is no way of baptizing satan's bacchanaliac rhythmes, by slapping a Christian label onto them.

Besides the more secular sounding "contemporary Christian music", there is the question of the doctrine implied by the lyrics. That can be problematic, I suppose.

Seraphim

 

[Alfred M]

Seraphim Reeves,

Just wanted to let you know that I enjoyed your post! Especially the perspective on music. Years ago, my wife and I were pre-teen directors in a protestant church and the "Christian" Rock (as well as other forms of contemporary Christian music) was something I personally had a hard time dealing with.

Something that one of my Orthodox Byzantine Chant CDs says on its cover is that the music contained is never to be used as mere entertainment. It is to be used in worship. We use it as something to listen to during prayer time in our home.

Thank you for your input!

In th elove of our Saviour,

Alfred