1844 based on wrong date?

[Gideon]

Ezra came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king. On the first day of the first month he began his journey from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month he came to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.

Apart from how different folk interpret the 2300 days prophecy, Millers chronology from 457 BC to 1844 is based on a wrong date. The decree of the Persian emperor in his 7th year is more correctly dated 458 BC - not 457 BC. We know this because his accession to the throne took place December 465 BC with his first full year starting April 464 BC. Therefore, his second year was 463, his third 462, his fourth 461, his fifth 460, his sixth 459 with his seventh year beginning April 458 BC.

Thoughts?

 

[mrasell]

Apart from how different folk interpret the 2300 days prophecy, Millers chronology from 457 BC to 1844 is based on a wrong date. The decree of the Persian emperor in his 7th year is more correctly dated 458 BC - not 457 BC. We know this because his accession to the throne took place December 465 BC with his first full year starting April 464 BC. Therefore, his second year was 463, his third 462, his fourth 461, his fifth 460, his sixth 459 with his seventh year beginning April 458 BC.

Thoughts?

In ancient times there was no uniform calendar, some started in spring, others in the fall, and others in december. Also some counted the first part of a kings reign until the new year as year 1 even if it was a few days, others did not.

The Jews were using a fall civil calendar, so the 7th year of Artaxerxes would have been from fall 458 to fall 457.

The fall calendar can be proven from Nehemiah 1:1 and 2:1, because Nisan comes after Kislev in the same year, which would be impossible in a spring calendar.

See: https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/sites/default/files/pdf/70weeks%26457BC.pdf

Also I've got a book, "exploring the heavenly sanctuary", which goes through some of the chronology associated with 1844.

Marc Rasell

 

[Gideon]

Thanks for the link and for addressing my question.

Your link concludes with what appears to be his main evidence, namely, that Jews used a fall civil calendar as suggested by Nehemiahs arrangement of the months. As best as I can find, this text in Nehemiah is the only 'proof' that 457 BC was the 7th year of Artaxerxes. The date is then extrapolated backwards from 444 BC being the 20th year of the king.

But I have problems with this argument. Is there any other evidence, apart from Nehemiahs month order, that 458/445 should be rejigged to 457/444?

 

[Gideon]

The Jews were using a fall civil calendar, and using the first part of a kings reign as year one until the new year. So the 7th year of Artaxerxes would have been from fall 458 to fall 457.

Two questions please: If the Jewish calendar year began in the fall (Tishri/Sept)

1. Wouldn't it apply to Jewish kings only - not to gentile kings? and
2. How do we explain the references of Nisan (April) being the first month? (eg. Esther 3:7)

 

[mrasell]

Two questions please: If the Jewish calendar year began in the fall (Tishri/Sept)

1. Wouldn't it apply to Jewish kings only - not to gentile kings? and
2. How do we explain the references of Nisan (April) being the first month? (eg. Esther 3:7)

This is a question that perhaps might be worth sending to the Adventist Biblical Research Instritute.

I do know that the fall calendar is also used to calculate AD 27 as the 15th year of Tiberius, the Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible puts it in the fall of AD 27, see Harold W. Hoehner, "Chronology of the N.T., The,".

Marc

 

[mrasell]

But I have problems with this argument. Is there any other evidence, apart from Nehemiahs month order, that 458/445 should be rejigged to 457/444?

I don't think its disputed that the Jews had a fall civil calendar, but the question is which calendar was Ezra using, the Jewish or the Persian one when he said the 7th year of Artaxerxes. Nehemiah gives evidence that it was the fall one.

Marc

 

[mrasell]

But I have problems with this argument. Is there any other evidence, apart from Nehemiahs month order, that 458/445 should be rejigged to 457/444?

There is an extra biblical piece of evidence of a fall calendar from the discovery of a papyrus from Elephantine where a Jewish community lived under Egyptian rule.

The papyri were doubled dated, giving Egpytian (solar) and Jewish (lunar) month and day, but only one year was stated, so it was inconclusive.
But then a papyrus (No. 6) was discovered that gave the year as 3rd year of Darius (II), and the lunar and solar date could only coincide in July of 420 BC, which could only happen in the 3rd year of the Jewish fall calendar but not in a Persian (spring) or Egyptian (December) calendar where it would have been in their 4th year.

The Egyptians used the non-accession year system at this time, whereas the Persians and Jews used the accession year system. (At a later date around the time of Alexander the Great the Jews adopted the non-accession year system.)

Therefore a date in July would put both the Persian (spring) and Egyptian (December and non-accession year system) both into year 4. So this proves the Jewish community in Elephantine were using a civil fall calendar.

This evidence tends to be dismissed by some scholars as a scribal error, because they believe the Jews were using the Persian spring calendar; however it matches the Biblical evidence found in Nehemiah 1:1; 2:1 which also point to a civil fall calendar.

 

[mrasell]

I had to edit some of my posts to correct something: the non-accession year system was used by the Jews roughly from the time of Alexander the Great, before that they used the accession year system.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Two questions please: If the Jewish calendar year began in the fall (Tishri/Sept)

1. Wouldn't it apply to Jewish kings only - not to gentile kings? and
2. How do we explain the references of Nisan (April) being the first month? (eg. Esther 3:7)

Gideon:

First using the word gentile does not apply to the Chaldeans or any ethnic group accept the Greek speaking people who come from Javan, the son of Japheth. Gen 10:5 All other use actually states nations and was used wrong. Other actually states Hellenes, I urge you to understand that as well.

The Egyptians were the first who changed the calendar from a solar/lunar calendar as it was suppose to be according to the Scriptures.

And ELOHIM said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: Gen 1:14​

Both the sun and the moon was to be the basic for the calendar. After the flood the earth move from its original axies due all of the large amount of water. It once rotated equal 30 days now it is 29 to 30 days not 31. Using a solar calendar or just a lunar calendar is off or incorrect. The date that was used for Oct 22, 1844 was based not on a rabbinic calendar. The reason they too had become paganized and left the Command given in Ex Chapter 12, the barley. The Karaites Jews have kept the original Command to watch the barley which is what Abib or Aviv actually means. The word seasons in the above text is incorrect it should say fixed time or what called YAHWEH'S Feast Days. The word season came about after the flood and they overlap and do not follow the equnioxes which are pagan calculations. The year always begins when the barley crop is ripe and then you are able to calculate the correct time. Back then they use this as their instrument as we now can detect through the telescope. Today the Rabbanic Jews have two passovers call seders because they looked to the light from Jerusalem instead of keeping up with the crop. Crops, seeds, and gardening has always been the key to unlock the Salvation plan. If most would accept the Feast of YAHWEH they would understand the mysterous of Salvation in the Bible. Sad we are caught into so much paganistic culture because we lean on the Greek religious system instead of ELOHIM'S!

Be Bless,
stinsonmarri

 

[mrasell]

Artaxerxes was a Gentile King, and Nehemiah uses the fall calendar (1:1; 2:1); also the Papyrus found in Elephantine which gave evidence of a Jewish fall calendar referred to the third year of Darius II, a Gentile King.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Artaxerxes was a Gentile King, and Nehemiah uses the fall calendar (1:1; 2:1); also the Papyrus found in Elephantine which gave evidence of a Jewish fall calendar referred to the third year of Darius II, a Gentile King.

mrasell:​

You are partially right the Persians are Gentiles because they were of the Aryan ethnic tribes of people. At one time it was the Medes and the Persians but the kingdom of Mitanni was eventually taken over by the Persians. Both of these people were related but the Persian also moved into the land of Shem and took the kingdom of the Elamites and made the city Shushan their Capital. ​

However you are not correct about a fall calendar during the time of Nehemiah who obeyed the Commands of YAHWEH. Now after the Babylonian exile many Jews begin to adopt the pagan names of the month and later the Rabbinical school started a fall calendar claiming it to be civil usage. However, this is not true because YAHWEH Commanded on set time for the year for both civil and religious matters and that time begin in the Spring time. YAHWEH only named one month of the year as HE only named on day of the week and it was called the month of Aviv. The Jews used a lunar/solar calendar because the years would rotate back evenly after 19 cycles. The reason it this time was due to the flood and the new position the earth rotated around the sun and the moon rotating around the earth. Once the earth had 30 day each month equally but not after the flood.​

This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Exodus 12:2​

Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto YAHWEH thy ELOHIM: for in the month of Abib YAHWEH thy ELOHIM brought thee forth out of Egypt by night. Deuteronomy 16:1​

And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence. Nehemiah 2:1​

In the first month, that is, the month Nisan, in the twelfth year of king Ahasuerus, they cast Pur, that is, the lot, before Haman from day to day, and from month to month, to the twelfth month, that is, the month Adar. Esther 3:7​

Those who were obedient kept the correct time but the Rabbinical school of thought became Hellenized and changed many of ELOHIM'S Laws.​

Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

 

[David Conklin]

>Wouldn't it apply to Jewish kings only - not to gentile kings?

Nope; he was writing from their perspective.

 

[stinsonmarri]

>Wouldn't it apply to Jewish kings only - not to gentile kings?

Nope; he was writing from their perspective.

David I do not understand why you are applying here?

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[mmksparbud]

I really hate math--always have. Which puts me at a disadvantage--as soon as numbers start reeling, my brain goes reeling, or stagnant, I'm not sure. I was just wanting to ask--if a jew is writing a scroll to other jews, wouldn't he use the calender of the jews so that the people he was writing all this down for would understand it better??

 

[David Conklin]

I really hate math--always have. Which puts me at a disadvantage--as soon as numbers start reeling, my brain goes reeling, or stagnant, I'm not sure. I was just wanting to ask--if a jew is writing a scroll to other jews, wouldn't he use the calender of the jews so that the people he was writing all this down for would understand it better??

BINGO!

 

[reddogs]

David, I see you have Kevin Morgan down as one of the authors of your case study. Did he go to Southern by chance?

 

[David Conklin]

David, I see you have Kevin Morgan down as one of the authors of your case study. Did he go to Southern by chance?

I don't know.

 

[stinsonmarri]

In ancient times there was no uniform calendar, some started in spring, others in the fall, and others in december. Also some counted the first part of a kings reign until the new year as year 1 even if it was a few days, others did not.

The Jews were using a fall civil calendar, so the 7th year of Artaxerxes would have been from fall 458 to fall 457.

The fall calendar can be proven from Nehemiah 1:1 and 2:1, because Nisan comes after Kislev in the same year, which would be impossible in a spring calendar.

I know both Biblical and other sources that most ancient people kept a lunisolar calendar. However it was the Egyptians who first begin a solar calendar and later the Romans but both at first kept a lunisolar calendar as well.

The Babylonian calendar was a lunisolar calendar based on the lunar phases which was used in Babylon and surrounding regions for administrative, commercial and ritualistic purposes.
It consisted of twelve lunar months, each beginning on the evening (i.e. after sunset) of the first observed (or computed) lunar crescent after the astronomical new moon.
The year began around the spring equinox and in order to keep the calendar in step with the seasons, an intercalary month was inserted at (semi-)regular intervals. At first the intercalary months were inserted at irregular intervals, based on the observed discrepancies between the calendar and the seasons, but after about 500 BCE a regular intercalation scheme consisting of seven intercalary months in a 19-year cycle was adopted. Webpages on the History of Astronomy by Robert Harry van Gent

The Jews however follow the original time as did all ancient people until Rome! Gen 1:14 Because of the Egyptians worshiping the sun and changing the original calendar ELOHIM had to provide for Israel the correct beginning of the year which is the spring and not the fall. The only month given a name by YAHWEH is Aviv or Abib in English. The Investigated Judgment date used by Miller was from the Karites Jews and not the Rabbinical Jewish sect. The later accepted the Roman Calendar and by this time came up with a false civil calendar in the fall. This was to keep in harmony with Hellenistic ideology that had taken over the world to this day!

Happy Sabbath and prayers go out to the Boston Community,
stinsonmarri