1844 and the book of Hebrews...

I just want to add one quesston to this discussion before moving on and finding the other thread study on the IJ.

Why would there be a need to have a holy and most holy or veils between any of the rooms in the heavenly sanctuary? I know the reasons for the earthly tabernacle and Temple. Man had to be shielded from the radiance of the shikinah glory to survive but would that be necessary in heaven where all the beings are holy?

Jimlarmore said:

I just want to add one quesston to this discussion before moving on and finding the other thread study on the IJ.

Why would there be a need to have a holy and most holy or veils between any of the rooms in the heavenly sanctuary? I know the reasons for the earthly tabernacle and Temple. Man had to be shielded from the radiance of the shikinah glory to survive but would that be necessary in heaven where all the beings are holy?

Click to expand...

I do not believe that there is a literal veil in heaven, as in a material object of which the earthly veil would have been an exact replica. If you look at the places in Hebrews that mention a veil or curtain, the first says this:How does our hope enter behind a literal curtain? This is obviously somewhat metaphorical language describing the hope that we have because Jesus entered heaven as our High Priest. Hebrews 9:24 says:Jesus didn't enter some little cubicle in heaven, where He is shut away from the rest of heaven by a curtain. He ascended to heaven itself and sat down in the very presence of God. Unlike a few here, I believe that the throne room of God, where God sits surrounded by cherubim, was symbolized by the Most Holy Place (not the table of shewbread) in the earthly sanctuary. I also believe that Jesus entered it at His ascension. There are discussions on this earlier in either this thread and in the other sanctuary thread, I believe.

Another place where Hebrews mentions a curtain is in chapter 9:This is a description of the earthly, man-made sanctuary, which the writer goes on to contrast with the greater and more perfect heavenly sanctuary:Here the curtain unmistakably refers to Jesus' body. Jesus is the way into the Most Holy Place in heaven. Hebrews uses the term veil or curtain to emphasize that we were separated from God before, but now, through Christ, we have direct access to the Father. We can boldly approach the throne of grace (Heb. 4:16)--the heavenly mercy seat. No longer can only the human high priest enter the MHP of an inferior earthly tabernacle through a curtain that keeps everyone else out. Now all of us who depend on Christ for our salvation can draw near to God "in full assurance of faith," through the curtain that lets us in.

Thus, I do not believe that there is any need for a literal veil in heaven to isolate God from the angels or anyone else. We should be careful not to make the earthly symbols the reality and miss the bigger picture of their fulfillment in Christ.

Well, no one said the heavenly sanctuary is the same size as the earthly one. And if we have paid attention, the veils of the earthly sanctuary were embroidered with golden angels. So the angels are the presence of God. Now that we can put these notions to rest, lets dwell with our humble mind on what the inspiration did reveal.

The veils were made of earthly materials, together the materials and the colors declared Christ's character and His humanity. Not only the ancient hebrews needed to gain the knowledge of the plan of salvation and to understand the character of God, even the angels needed to acquire this knowledge. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the earth.

There are different apartments in the sanctuary. This portraits the different stages of Christ's ministry. When Christ presided from the Holy Place, He interceded for us. When Christ presides from the MHP, He became our judge.

The jewish economy is the demonstration of the whole plan of salvation. We are visual learners. By witnessing how the ceremonies were conducted, the believers learned the whole plan of salvation.

We can give our opinion to speculate. But it isn't going to worth much. The fact of the matter is that the earthly sanctuary was patterned after the heavenly. It was a minutiature of the true tabernacle.

Have you seen a replica/counterfeit 9 dollar bill? No. Because there is no original 9 dollar bill.

Jimlarmore said:

I just want to add one quesston to this discussion before moving on and finding the other thread study on the IJ.

Why would there be a need to have a holy and most holy or veils between any of the rooms in the heavenly sanctuary? I know the reasons for the earthly tabernacle and Temple. Man had to be shielded from the radiance of the shikinah glory to survive but would that be necessary in heaven where all the beings are holy?

Click to expand...

Hi Jim...nice to see you!

Jim the easiest way to understand this thing is to know that Jesus was and is the sanctuary. Every thing that the earthly sanctuary was, Jesus was the reality of it. If you think I am wrong here, meditate on it. The candle stick, the shew bread, the incents...THE VEIL. The Law, The mercey seat, The Glory. He was the True sanctuary walking around on earth during His ministry. When the veil was rip from top to bottom, that was Jesus being brused and torn for us...Just think...If there was no more seperation of the two compartments because of a broken or ripped veil, then we have one big room...the glory shining out from the the throne of God into the whole thing, showing that sins had been atoned for, the table was set, all we had to do was come and eat... so in heaven no seperation, heaven is the true tabernacle...He intered into the very presence of God for us and we can now go into the very presence of God through His broken body, that is the Blood. (Heb 10:19-20)

-AT

OntheDL said:

Well, no one said the heavenly sanctuary is the same size as the earthly one. And if we have paid attention, the veils of the earthly sanctuary were embroidered with golden angels. So the angels are the presence of God. Now that we can put these notions to rest, lets dwell with our humble mind on what the inspiration did reveal.

The veils were made of earthly materials, together the materials and the colors declared Christ's character and His humanity. Not only the ancient hebrews needed to gain the knowledge of the plan of salvation and to understand the character of God, even the angels needed to acquire this knowledge. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the earth.

There are different apartments in the sanctuary. This portraits the different stages of Christ's ministry. When Christ presided from the Holy Place, He interceded for us. When Christ presides from the MHP, He became our judge.

The jewish economy is the demonstration of the whole plan of salvation. We are visual learners. By witnessing how the ceremonies were conducted, the believers learned the whole plan of salvation.

We can give our opinion to speculate. But it isn't going to worth much. The fact of the matter is that the earthly sanctuary was patterned after the heavenly. It was a minutiature of the true tabernacle.

Have you seen a replica/counterfeit 9 dollar bill? No. Because there is no original 9 dollar bill.

Click to expand...

I didn't say that anyone thought the earthly sanctuary was the same size as the heavenly. I certainly don't. I was referring to the idea that it was an exact replica--that is, a miniature reproduction of a building and objects that exist in heaven in the same literal form but on a larger scale. I disagree that the Bible teaches this. For example, I believe that the earthly sanctuary represented heaven itself (Heb. 9:24) and that the embroidered angels and golden cherubim of the earthly sanctuary symbolized the real, living angels and cherubim in heaven. I do not believe that there is literally a veil in heaven with embroidered angels on it, separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place.

I have been following your sanctuary study in the Traditional Adventist subforum, and I disagree with much of it. I believe that the majority of it is speculation with no biblical support, and it gives people the idea that we believe we are saved by a knowledge of this version of the sanctuary message. It has been interesting to read, but I just don't believe the same as you on this.

Sophia, what do you think of John's visions of the Sanctuary in heaven, and also Isaiah's? Do you think we should view them as symbolic?

Jon

Jon0388g said:

Sophia, what do you think of John's visions of the Sanctuary in heaven, and also Isaiah's? Do you think we should view them as symbolic?

Jon

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Isaiah and Revelation use metaphorical language, but they describe heavenly realities, just as Hebrews does. The sanctuary elements in heaven are the realities that the earthly items symbolized. Heaven is the real sanctuary. God's throne is the real mercy seat. God's throne room is the real MHP. The cherubim and angels are living creatures, not made out of gold. And, of course, Jesus is the real fulfillment of the all of the OT sacrificial services. I do not believe that the Bible supports the idea that the sanctuary in heaven is a physical building just like the earthly one, with exactly the same literal spatial layout, only bigger. The heavenly sanctuary is real; the earthly tabernacle was symbolic in its meaning and function and proportions. We shouldn't try to make it into the reality, as some Adventists tend to do.

Sophia7 said:

I didn't say that anyone thought the earthly sanctuary was the same size as the heavenly. I certainly don't. I was referring to the idea that it was an exact replica--that is, a miniature reproduction of a building and objects that exist in heaven in the same literal form but on a larger scale. I disagree that the Bible teaches this. For example, I believe that the earthly sanctuary represented heaven itself (Heb. 9:24) and that the embroidered angels and golden cherubim of the earthly sanctuary symbolized the real, living angels and cherubim in heaven. I do not believe that there is literally a veil in heaven with embroidered angels on it, separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place.

I have been following your sanctuary study in the Traditional Adventist subforum, and I disagree with much of it. I believe that the majority of it is speculation with no biblical support, and it gives people the idea that we believe we are saved by a knowledge of this version of the sanctuary message. It has been interesting to read, but I just don't believe the same as you on this.

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I have posted about 12 studies and probably over 70 pages of notes. If you disagree with much of it, I'd like to hear them if you can post seperate threads. I'm not afraid to explore them.

And most of what I posted are quotes of accomplished scholars of on the subject of sanctuary which themselves are the quotes of Bible, SOP and historic Jewish records. I'd like to hear the basis of your disagreement.

The vision of the heavenly sanctuary by John, Daniel, Isaiah aren't just metaphors if you would just accept what the bible says plainly that the heavenly sanctuary is what the earthly one patterned after.

John saw Christ ministered in front of the seven candlesticks before the throne in the heavenly sanctuary and then he saw the ark in the heavenly sanctuary.

Ellen White also saw the ark in heaven now contain the Aaron's rod and the pot of manna missing from the earthly ark (1 kings 8:9, 2 chron 5:10) in EW p32.

And yet even more clearly the end of the bible says when the heaven and earth are made new, there will be no more temple. But now there is a heavenly temple. That's reality of which the earthly sanctuary was a replica of.

Exodus 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

'We all need to keep the subject of sanctuary in mind. God forbids the clutter of words coming from human lips should lessen the belief of our people in the truth that there is a sanctuary in heaven. And the pattern of this sanctuary was once built on the earth. God desires His people to become familiar with this pattern keeping ever before their minds where God is all and all.’ Letter 233, 1904

Sophia7 said:

Isaiah and Revelation use metaphorical language, but they describe heavenly realities, just as Hebrews does. The sanctuary elements in heaven are the realities that the earthly items symbolized. Heaven is the real sanctuary. God's throne is the real mercy seat. God's throne room is the real MHP. The cherubim and angels are living creatures, not made out of gold. And, of course, Jesus is the real fulfillment of the all of the OT sacrificial services. I do not believe that the Bible supports the idea that the sanctuary in heaven is a physical building just like the earthly one, with exactly the same literal spatial layout, only bigger. The heavenly sanctuary is real; the earthly tabernacle was symbolic in its meaning and function and proportions. We shouldn't try to make it into the reality, as some Adventists tend to do.

Click to expand...

But, Isaiah says that the train of the Father's robe fills 'the temple.' It, along with Revelation, also says that the temple 'filled with smoke':

"After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened....and the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God.....and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished." Revelation 15:5, 8

If the temple symbolises heaven, does God's robe fill heaven? Does smoke fill the whole of heaven? If no one is able to stay in heaven until the seven plagues are complete, where do the angels go?

I think it is pretty plain that there is a real sanctuary in heaven - God must have His universal headquarters somewhere?! lol

Jon

Jon

OntheDL said:

I have posted about 12 studies and probably over 70 pages of notes. If you disagree with much of it, I'd like to hear them if you can post seperate threads. I'm not afraid to explore them.

And most of what I posted are quotes of accomplished scholars of on the subject of sanctuary which themselves are the quotes of Bible, SOP and historic Jewish records. I'd like to hear the basis of your disagreement.

Click to expand...

Perhaps I made too much of a generalization in my last statement; I don't disagree with everything you have posted in the sanctuary study, just with certain aspects of it. The basis of my disagreement is not with the descriptions of the layout of the OT tabernacle, for instance, but with some of the interpretations of the spiritual meanings of the sanctuary elements. For example, in this post, you quoted this:

OntheDL said:

The Laver Made of Bronze Mirrors
The laver was made out of the polished brass or copper "looking glasses" lovingly donated by the Israelite women worshipers (Ex 38:8; 30:17-21). Many such metallic mirrors have been unearthed by archaeologists in Bible lands. In Scriptural sign language a mirror illustrates one function of the law (James 1:23-25; cf. 2 Cor 3:17, 18), the revealer of sin.

Women gave the gift of mirror to make the laver. The laver was made from hammering, digging and piercing(think of Christ being nailed to the cross). Mary to give the gift of cleansing. Rev 12, woman ‘true church’ gave birth to the gift of cleansing.

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This is speculation, even if it was written by an accomplished scholar. I don't see the support for such interpretations in the Bible. This is just one example, but I think that many of the details and interpretations in these studies read way too much into the sanctuary service and take Bible verses out of context to make them apply to these views. I disagree with the way that they relate things to the sanctuary service that don't specifically relate to it, from a biblical perspective. Also, these studies make people think that they can't understand the sanctuary service just from reading the Bible and that they have to listen to "experts" who can interpret everything for them. As I said earlier, by reading into every detail a complex spiritual meaning, they also give the impression that we think we are saved by knowledge.

OntheDL said:

The vision of the heavenly sanctuary by John, Daniel, Isaiah aren't just metaphors if you would just accept what the bible says plainly that the heavenly sanctuary is what the earthly one patterned after.

John saw Christ ministered in front of the seven candlesticks before the throne in the heavenly sanctuary and then he saw the ark in the heavenly sanctuary.

Ellen White also saw the ark in heaven now contain the Aaron's rod and the pot of manna missing from the earthly ark (1 kings 8:9, 2 chron 5:10) in EW p32.

Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I didn't say that these are just metaphors. I said that they use metaphorical language to describe heavenly realities. I do believe in a real heavenly sanctuary. I would even concede the possibility that Aaron's rod and the pot of manna were taken to heaven and placed in the ark there. (Maybe the earthly ark was taken to heaven, too, but that also is just speculation since we can't know for sure where it is now.)

However, I disagree that the heavenly sanctuary has exactly the same literal form/layout/proportions, etc., as the earthly. Yes, John mentions the seven lamps, but he also says that they are the "seven spirits of God":What I see in the descriptions in Isaiah, Daniel, and Revelation are images of the real heavenly elements (like angels, God's throne, the sea of glass) that the earthly emblems symbolized.

OntheDL said:

And yet even more clearly the end of the bible says when the heaven and earth are made new, there will be no more temple. But now there is a heavenly temple. That's reality of which the earthly sanctuary was a replica of.

Exodus 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

'We all need to keep the subject of sanctuary in mind. God forbids the clutter of words coming from human lips should lessen the belief of our people in the truth that there is a sanctuary in heaven. And the pattern of this sanctuary was once built on the earth. God desires His people to become familiar with this pattern keeping ever before their minds where God is all and all.’ Letter 233, 1904

Click to expand...

Actually, Revelation 21:22 says that there will be no temple in the New Jerusalem because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb will be the temple. However, I do agree with you that there is now a heavenly temple; we just disagree as to its form.

Exodus 25 simply says that God told Moses to make the tabernacle according to the pattern that he had been shown. I have read many different viewpoints on what that could mean, but the truth is that it doesn't say explicitly. It doesn't say whether God gave Moses a vision of the actual heavenly sanctuary or just a blueprint or model to guide him. From the rest of Exodus 25 and the subsequent chapters, it is clear that God described to him how to build the sanctuary, but the fact that He gave Moses a pattern proves only that He gave Moses explicit directions. Hebrews 8:5 says that the earthly is an example and shadow of the heavenly. The Bible doesn't say that the earthly tabernacle was an exact scale model of the heavenly sanctuary or that all of the elements of the heavenly sanctuary have literally the same material forms as the earthly.

On the contrary, the sanctuary visions of the Bible indicate that the heavenly sanctuary includes the real elements that the earthly objects symbolized and were patterned after. Yes, I believe in a real, literal heavenly sanctuary, but I think that some scholars and commentators tend to focus on the earthly sanctuary as if it were the reality rather than the shadow.

Jon0388g said:

But, Isaiah says that the train of the Father's robe fills 'the temple.' It, along with Revelation, also says that the temple 'filled with smoke':

"After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened....and the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God.....and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished." Revelation 15:5, 8

If the temple symbolises heaven, does God's robe fill heaven? Does smoke fill the whole of heaven? If no one is able to stay in heaven until the seven plagues are complete, where do the angels go?

I think it is pretty plain that there is a real sanctuary in heaven - God must have His universal headquarters somewhere?! lol

Jon

Jon

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Yes, I agree. The Bible relates the sanctuary to heaven itself, as well as to certain areas of heaven (for instance, the throne room of God, which is the Most Holy Place). I do believe in a real heavenly sanctuary. See my last post.

Thanks all for your input on the veils and the sanctuary. Especially adventtruth and Sophia. I like the idea that the sanctuary and it's edifices represent Christ. I knew a lot of it did but I never really considered all of it did. I guess that really does make sense though.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Sophia7 said:

Perhaps I made too much of a generalization in my last statement; I don't disagree with everything you have posted in the sanctuary study, just with certain aspects of it. The basis of my disagreement is not with the descriptions of the layout of the OT tabernacle, for instance, but with some of the interpretations of the spiritual meanings of the sanctuary elements. For example, in this post, you quoted this:

This is speculation, even if it was written by an accomplished scholar. I don't see the support for such interpretations in the Bible. This is just one example, but I think that many of the details and interpretations in these studies read way too much into the sanctuary service and take Bible verses out of context to make them apply to these views. I disagree with the way that they relate things to the sanctuary service that don't specifically relate to it, from a biblical perspective. Also, these studies make people think that they can't understand the sanctuary service just from reading the Bible and that they have to listen to "experts" who can interpret everything for them. As I said earlier, by reading into every detail a complex spiritual meaning, they also give the impression that we think we are saved by knowledge.

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'My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.' We are not saved by knowledge. However knowing the will of God and His character tells us exactly our need for Jesus and His plan of salvation. It's a light onto my feet to the path of righteousness.

About the statement regarding the laver...the laver was made of polished brass (or bronz) which came from the brass mirror the women donated as gifts. It was alluding to the prophetic song that it pointed to Mary who brought forth the Child who is the source of the cleansing. Maybe this clears it up.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I didn't say that these are just metaphors. I said that they use metaphorical language to describe heavenly realities. I do believe in a real heavenly sanctuary. I would even concede the possibility that Aaron's rod and the pot of manna were taken to heaven and placed in the ark there. (Maybe the earthly ark was taken to heaven, too, but that also is just speculation since we can't know for sure where it is now.)


However, I disagree that the heavenly sanctuary has exactly the same literal form/layout/proportions, etc., as the earthly. Yes, John mentions the seven lamps, but he also says that they are the "seven spirits of God":


What I see in the descriptions in Isaiah, Daniel, and Revelation are images of the real heavenly elements (like angels, God's throne, the sea of glass) that the earthly emblems symbolized.

Actually, Revelation 21:22 says that there will be no temple in the New Jerusalem because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb will be the temple. However, I do agree with you that there is now a heavenly temple; we just disagree as to its form.

Exodus 25 simply says that God told Moses to make the tabernacle according to the pattern that he had been shown. I have read many different viewpoints on what that could mean, but the truth is that it doesn't say explicitly. It doesn't say whether God gave Moses a vision of the actual heavenly sanctuary or just a blueprint or model to guide him. From the rest of Exodus 25 and the subsequent chapters, it is clear that God described to him how to build the sanctuary, but the fact that He gave Moses a pattern proves only that He gave Moses explicit directions. Hebrews 8:5 says that the earthly is an example and shadow of the heavenly. The Bible doesn't say that the earthly tabernacle was an exact scale model of the heavenly sanctuary or that all of the elements of the heavenly sanctuary have literally the same material forms as the earthly.

On the contrary, the sanctuary visions of the Bible indicate that the heavenly sanctuary includes the real elements that the earthly objects symbolized and were patterned after. Yes, I believe in a real, literal heavenly sanctuary, but I think that some scholars and commentators tend to focus on the earthly sanctuary as if it were the reality rather than the shadow.

Click to expand...

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say. I have never said the heavenly sanctuary was the exactly same thing as the earthly just enlarged. But the earthly was patterned after the heavenly. And it stayed true to it with the available materials at the time it was built.

However the placement and dimension of the furnitures, materials, colors...are all crucial, not arbitrary. There is no speculation. Together they sing a gospel chorus. Every piece had a purpose and a deep spiritual meaning.

Yeah, the description in the bible is not complete about the heavenly sanctuary. But it did say however it was modeled (patterned) after to make the earthly one. And the revelations of earthly sanctuary was to adumbrate the plan of salvation. So the incomplete information about the heavenly does not in any way invalidates the information we do have about the earthly. And earthly sanctuary that was once built and recorded in the bible is what God used to reveal the character of Christ and the plan of salvation.

So I'm not sure what you are saying...because we don't know everything about the heavenly that our doctrines based on the earthly are invalid?

No, I'm saying that we shouldn't interpret the heavenly realities by the earthly symbols but rather the other way around.

Sophia7 said:

No, I'm saying that we shouldn't interpret the heavenly realities by the earthly symbols but rather the other way around.

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I agree here. One is shadow, the other is the real thing. Sometimes I think we what to stay up under the
beggarly elements and in bondage of the law.


-AT

Interesting piece on the sanctuary...