17 week foetus smiles

[Scottish Knight]

"Transformed by a beaming smile, this is the tiny face of a foetus just 17 weeks old.
The scan implies that a baby can experience feelings such as happiness and pain much earlier in its development than previously thought.

It will prompt further calls from doctors and campaigners to lower the upper abortion limit from 24 weeks."


Read more: The foetus who broke into a big smile...aged only 17 weeks | Mail Online

Has the photo on website..

 

[montgolfier]

It's just wind



.

 

[Phinehas2]

Good post! Yes of course the baby has feelings.. much higher sensitivities than the doctors who abort them.

 

[lux et lex]

So contorting muscles due to random nerve impulses that result in what looks like a "smile" now means a fetus has feelings? I don't believe it.

 

[alizayjames]

wow i didn't know that..its a pitty children are considered blessings of God and we humans kill our own child. how can we do this after all we carry our child in us he feels and we feel him all the time then why cant we stop this heinous practice called abortion?

 

[laconicstudent]

"Transformed by a beaming smile, this is the tiny face of a foetus just 17 weeks old.
The scan implies that a baby can experience feelings such as happiness and pain much earlier in its development than previously thought.

It will prompt further calls from doctors and campaigners to lower the upper abortion limit from 24 weeks."


Read more: The foetus who broke into a big smile...aged only 17 weeks | Mail Online

Has the photo on website..

ROFL, a scan that shows a baby having facial muscle contractions indicate nothing of the sort.

 

[Phinehas2]

Laconicstudent and Lux et Lex.

ROFL, a scan that shows a baby having facial muscle contractions indicate nothing of the sort.

Why not? Would facial muscle contractions on our faces not indicate a smile. What is the reasoning behind your assumption for the baby?

Azbortion is murder, I believe it.

 

[NDNgirl4ever]

Why not? Would facial muscle contractions on our faces not indicate a smile. What is the reasoning behind your assumption for the baby?

Because even in a newborn, the majority of their movement is pure reflex, meaning that they have no control over it. Yes, it would indicate a smile in an adult, but an adult's nervous system is different than that of a 17 week fetus. The two cannot be compared.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Because even in a newborn, the majority of their movement is pure reflex, meaning that they have no control over it. Yes, it would indicate a smile in an adult, but an adult's nervous system is different than that of a 17 week fetus. The two cannot be compared.

A smile, even in an adult, is a reflexive action. It would seem to me that those who insist that these actions are not indicative of anything ought to back that up with some evidence rather than just making assertions.

 

[NDNgirl4ever]

A smile, even in an adult, is a reflexive action. It would seem to me that those who insist that these actions are not indicative of anything ought to back that up with some evidence rather than just making assertions.

The definition of reflex is:

re·flex

   https://secure.reference.com/sso/register_pop.html?source=favorites/adj., n. ˈri

flɛks; v. rɪˈflɛks/ Show Spelled[adj., n. ree-fleks; v. ri-fleks] Show IPA
–adjective 1. Physiology . noting or pertaining to an involuntary response to a stimulus, the nerve impulse from a receptor being transmitted inward to a nerve center that in turn transmits it outward to an effector.

Reflex | Define Reflex at Dictionary.com
Emphasis mine. Note that it is defined as involuntary. The vast majority of the time, an adult chooses whether or not to smile. In fact, people fake smiles all the time. It is NOT a reflex. Laughter can be a reflex, but that's not the same as smiling.

And I can back up my argument with evidence. Here are some articles which explain that the fetus or newborns smile is reflexive:
reflex smiling -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
Happy Baby! How Smiles Develop

 

[laconicstudent]

Laconicstudent and Lux et Lex.
Why not? Would facial muscle contractions on our faces not indicate a smile. What is the reasoning behind your assumption for the baby?

No, it would indicate the firing of motor neurons, which may or may not correlate with activity in the somatic nervous system. I am not required to prove my position because I am not making a positive claim, you are.

Please cite the neurological research showing that a 17-week fetus experience somatic nervous function resulting in the firing of motor neurons and accompanying muscular contractions.

Azbortion is murder, I believe it.

I really don't care.

 

[lux et lex]

No, it would indicate the firing of motor neurons, which may or may not correlate with activity in the somatic nervous system. I am not required to prove my position because I am not making a positive claim, you are.

Please cite the neurological research showing that a 17-week fetus experience somatic nervous function resulting in the firing of motor neurons and accompanying muscular contractions.

This exactly.

 

[grasping the after wind]

The definition of reflex is:
Reflex | Define Reflex at Dictionary.com
Emphasis mine. Note that it is defined as involuntary. The vast majority of the time, an adult chooses whether or not to smile. In fact, people fake smiles all the time. It is NOT a reflex. Laughter can be a reflex, but that's not the same as smiling.

And I can back up my argument with evidence. Here are some articles which explain that the fetus or newborns smile is reflexive:
reflex smiling -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
Happy Baby! How Smiles Develop

You cite others asserting the same thing you assert and call it evidence.
I don't consider a fake smile involuntary, but a genuine one is.

 

[aruchan]

This does not change my position, as facial expressions can be seen on animals, but we still kill them anyway. They don't know what specifically caused this; ergo, it could be a muscle contortion, or it could be a smile. Even so, the upper limit should be 18 (in my opinion), with any later weeks only if the woman's life is in jeopardy.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Hmmn, so if we kill animals and facial expressions can be seen on them we could kill humans? Not sure I think your analogy is very good.

By the way many people disagree with your upper limit, and indeed why have an upper limit, if it is important who is to say when it is?

 

[Jedi]

Yeah, this was a pretty weak argument to establish the personhood of a fetus at 17 weeks. The neurons don't even connect until the 24-26th week, which enable higher thought. Before that point, happiness isn't something the fetus is capable of; if it is incapable of thought, that would include happy thoughts. What we're seeing must therefore be a mere muscle reaction void of any higher thought or happiness.

This is a common tactic used by the pro-life camp, though. They quite often point out similarities as an appeal to emotion. "It has this characteristic and so do you! Therefore, it must be the same as you and must not be killed!" is the basic form of the argument. This is just another example.

 

[laconicstudent]

This is a common tactic used by the pro-life camp, though. They quite often point out similarities as an appeal to emotion. "It has this characteristic and so do you! Therefore, it must be the same as you and must not be killed!" is the basic form of the argument. This is just another example.

Yep, the converse of this fallacious argument being when they use shock campaigns involving gory pictures. I simply cannot respect the pro-life movement when they use such childish tactics.

 

[brightmorningstar]

laconicstudent,

Yep, the converse of this fallacious argument being when they use shock campaigns involving gory pictures. I simply cannot respect the pro-life movement when they use such childish tactics.

So you would respect the pro-life movement if they didnt use what you saw as childish tactics? If no, then why the remark? Do you really think the pro-life movement is looking for respect, no it is looking to save babies lives.

 

[laconicstudent]

laconicstudent,
So you would respect the pro-life movement if they didnt use what you saw as childish tactics? If no, then why the remark? Do you really think the pro-life movement is looking for respect, no it is looking to save babies lives.

Yes, and they would be much more effective in that task if people took them more seriously, wouldn't they?

You know, as opposed to thinking of them as hysterics out of touch with the concerns of mainstream America?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

A blind man blinks, it doesn't mean that he sees.

There are so many other arguments against abortion that one could use, this is not one of the stronger ones.