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YHVH Ori

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First thing you must know is that modern Hebrew and ancient Hebrew (Paleo Hebrew) is not the same, meaning the alphabet form of looks are not the same.

El: Aleph is a "ox head" (meaning "strength") in Paleo Hebrew. Lamed is a "shepherd staff" (meaning "teach, yoke, to, bind") in Paleo Hebrew. El means "strong one of authority." el does not mean "God." When el is referring to "God" in the context, it is "interpreted" as "God", yet the word el itself does not have the definition "God."

Elohim: Aleph and lamed was explained above, so we'll deal with the "Hey," "Yud," and "Mem." Hey is a "man with arms raised" (meaning "look, reveal, breath") in Paleo Hebrew. Yud is a "arm and closed hand" (meaning "work, throw, worship") in Paleo Hebrew. Mem is "water" (meaning "chaos, mighty, blood) in Paleo Hebrew. Elohim means "Strong one who is all powerful in his/her situation." When elohim is referring to "God" in the context, it is "interpreted" as "God", yet the word elohim itself does not have the definition "God."

The Hebrew word el and elohim are homonyms; they change their meaning on the situation; in other words, they are interpreted differently according to context. Anyone who says el or elohim means "God" has no grasp of Paleo Hebrew at all, and doesn't know what s/he is talking about.

NKJV: Psalm 8:5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels (elohim), And You have crowned him with glory and honor.

NRSV: Psalm 8:5 Yet you have made them a little lower than God (elohim), and crowned them with glory and honor.

Stone Edition Tanach: Psalm 8:6 Yet, You have made him but slightly less than the angels (elohim), and crowned him with the sound and splendor.

LT: Psalm 8:6 Yet, You have made him but slightly less from elohim, and crowned him with the glory and splendor.

Septuagint: Psalm 8:5 Thou madest him a little less than angels (aggelous), thou hast crowned him with glory and honour

Here angels are referred to as "elohim." What you won't get from these "so-called" scholars is that it says "You have made him but slightly less from elohim" which shows there are others who are "elohim" and Ha'Moshiach was made slightly less from them (who are "elohim"), as we read in Hebrews 2.

Then the question comes, what are you talking about? I never heard this before. I'm sure you haven't heard this before. The Son reveals the Father as the Son can reveal himself to us if we are truly seeking truth no matter if it contradicts our current beliefs. Many people are confused and have went astray from the truth and have come to idolatrous beliefs such as "Trinity" and "Modalism", what you are being shown is the truth. Anyway, let's continue.

Genesis 28:10-22 Jacob left Beer-sheba and went toward Haran. He came to a certain place and stayed there for the night, because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones of the place, he put it under his head and lay down in that place. And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of el were ascending and descending on it. And YHVH stood beside him and said, ‘I am YHVH, the el of Abraham your father and the el of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring; and your offspring shall be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread abroad to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you and in your offspring. Know that I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.’ Then Jacob woke from his sleep and said, ‘Surely YHVH is in this place—and I did not know it!’ And he was afraid, and said, ‘How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of elohim, and this is the gate of heaven.’ So Jacob rose early in the morning, and he took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up for a pillar and poured oil on the top of it. He called that place Bethel; but the name of the city was Luz at the first. Then Jacob made a vow, saying, ‘If elohim will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat and clothing to wear, 21so that I come again to my father’s house in peace, then shall YHVH be to me of elohim. This stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be the house of elohim; and of all that you give me I will surely give one tenth to you.’

Genesis 31:11-13 Then the angel of el said to me in the dream, “Jacob,” and I said, “Here I am!” And he said, “Look up and see that all the goats that leap on the flock are striped, speckled, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. I am the el of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me. Now leave this land at once and return to the land of your birth.”

Genesis 35:1 elohim said to Jacob, ‘Arise, go up to Bethel, and settle there. Make an altar there to the el who appeared to you when you fled from your brother Esau.’

Where it says "Then shall YHVH be to me of elohim", it is understandable that YHVH is the Father while el is Ha'Moshiach. Ha'Moshiach is "the messenger of YHVH" who is the created el or you can say the created elohim of Yisrael. Each nation was given a messenger, and Yisrael is given "the messenger of YHVH."

Then the question comes. Whoa, hold on a second here, Uriyah; how can you say then that Yehoshua (hO Ihsous) is not the true God if he is referred to as el and as elohim? Have you not been paying attention? There is no Hebrew word that means "God"; I already explained above what el and elohim means. Anyone who knows Hebrew fluently will tell you the same, that there isn't a single Hebrew word that means "God."

Psalm 50:21 These things you have done, and should I have been silent? You thought that I was Ehyeh and altogether such a one as yourself. But now I rebuke you, and lay the charge before you.

This is Ha'Moshiach speaking, and he is going to rebuke those who make him to me a mere human and those who make him to be Ehyeh. For those of you who do not know what Ehyeh is, it is used in Exodus 3:14. So, beware you idolaters; repent for idolatry and turn to truth as Ha'Moshiach has stated in John 17:3 (that the Father is "the only true God"), where Apostle John confirms it in 1st John 5:20 (that the true God, the Father, is inside Yehoshua Ha'Moshiach), where Apostle Paul agrees that the Father is "the only God" (NRSV: 1st Timothy 1:17), and that the Father is "the true and living God" (NRSV: 1st Thessalonians 1:9-10), where Jude says that Father is "the only YHVH God" (NRSV: Jude 1:4), and that the Father is "the only God" (NRSV: Jude 1:25).

NKJV: Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods (elohim), And all of you are children of the Most High.

NRSV: Psalm 82:6 I say, “You are gods (elohim), children of the Most High, all of you

Stone Edition Tanach: Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are angelic (elohim), sons of the Most High are you all.”

Septuagint: Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods (Theoi), and all of you children of the Most High

Here judges are referred to as "elohim."

John 10:31-36 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. Yehoshua replied, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?" The Jews answered, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God." Yehoshua answered, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are elohim'? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called 'elohim'--and the scripture cannot be annulled-- 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

Here the Jews accuse him of blasphemy. Notice, Rabbi Yehoshua quotes Psalm 82:6, where they are not only referred to as "elohim" but also as "sons of the Most High." Why does he do this? He explains in refutation that they are false judges for making him out to be God just because he refers himself to be God's Son, for they are even referred to as sons of God. So, Yehoshua does not agree with their false accusation that he is "God." How we know further that this was a false accusation is by John 5:18: For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because he was not only breaking the Shabbat, but was also calling God his own Father, thereby making himself equal to God. Is Apostle John saying Yehoshua Ha'Moshiach broke the Shabbat? If he is, he is saying Yehoshua (hO Ihsous) is a sinner (it's even one of the Ten Mitzvot [Commandments] to not break the Shabbat). No, rather Apostle John is stating their accusations against him, and we know these two accusations are false as explained.

NKJV: 1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God (Theos) was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

NRSV: 1st Timothy 3:16 Without any doubt, the mystery of our religion is great: He (os) was revealed in flesh, vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.

The manuscript NRSV uses is much older than the manuscript NKJV uses. I would say "He was revealed in the flesh" is more original wording. But, let us deal with the manuscript that NKJV uses. If this would be converted to Hebrew, it would most likely use the word el or elohim which neither mean "God." And thus, the manuscript NKJV uses would say "A mighty one was revealed in the flesh."

John 20:28-31 Thomas answered him, ‘The lord of me, and the God of me!’ Yehoshua said to him, ‘Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.’ Now Yehoshua did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written so that you may come to believe that Yehoshua is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.

Is Thomas calling the flesh "the God of me"? I bet you would argue no. Then, what is Thomas calling "the God of me" (if we are going to interpret theos as "God" here)? John 4:24 says God is spirit. Yehoshua says in Luke 24:39 that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. So, it is proper to conclude Thomas is calling the spirit inside Yehoshua "his God (hO theos mou)." We read in John 14:10-11 that the Father is inside his Son, Yehoshua. Apostle John (the author of the "gospel of John") states in 1st John 5:20 that the true God is "in his Son." So, when Thomas said "the lord of me" he was referring to Yehoshua Ha'Moshiach, and when Thomas said "the God of me" he was referring to the Father inside Rabbi Yehoshua. If an angel would come to me, and I know that God is inside that angel of me, and that angel would be my lord, I would say "the lord of me, and the God of me" to the angel, for God is within the angel, not that I am calling the angel "my God." Thomas did not say "You are the lord of me and the God of me" to Yehoshua Ha'Moshiach, so the argument that he did has holes, as was explain above Thomas was not calling the flesh his God.

Now, for further evidence that Thomas did not say Yehoshua was "his God (hO theos mou)" is that Apostle John ends this by saying "But these are written so that you may come to believe that Yehoshua is the Messiah, the Son of God." Apostle John does not end this with "But these are written so that you may come to believe that Yehoshua is the true God, God the Son."
 

YHVH Ori

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Stone Edition Tanach: Psalm 45:7-8 Your throne is from elohim, it is forever and ever, the scepter of fairness is the scepter of your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore has elohim, your elohim, anointed you, with oil of joy from among your peers.

LT: Hebrews 1:8-9 But of the Son, ‘Your throne is of theos (elohim), forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. You loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore has theos (elohim), your theos (elohim), anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your peers.’

Hebrews 1:8-9 is a quote of Psalm 45:6-7. The word here used is "elohim" as was explained does not mean "God", but according to the context can or cannot be "interpreted" as "God."

If you know how to read Hebrew fluently, notice it literally says “Your throne Elohim” in Hebrew, and it is interpreted as “Your throne is of Elohim.” In the Koine Greek of Hebrews 1:8, it says “hO thronos sou hO theos” which literally means “The throne of you the theos”, and it is interpreted as “Your throne is of theos.” By the way this sentence is worded in the Koine Greek, it cannot be translated as “Your throne, O theos”, but let’s say some impossible chance that that is what it actually is saying here in Hebrews 1:8. Does this mean Yehoshua Ha'Moshiach is the true God? Not at all. As was stated above, Hebrews 1:8-9 is a quote of Psalm 45:6-7 which uses the word "elohim" and I do not want to repeat what I said above concerning "elohim."

The two translations (of Psalm 45:6-7 and Hebrews 1:8-9) are grammatical and proper.

NKJV: Exodus 4:16 So he shall be your spokesman to the people. And he himself shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God (elohim).

NRSV: Exodus 4:16 He indeed shall speak for you to the people; he shall serve as a mouth for you, and you shall serve as God (elohim) for him.

Stone Edition Tanach: Exodus 4:16 He shall speak for you to the people; and it will be that he will be your mouth and you will be his leader (elohim).

LT: Exodus 4:16 He shall speak for you to the people; and it will be that he will be your mouth and you will be his elohim.

Septuagint: Exodus 4:16 And he shall speak for thee to the people, and he shall be thy mouth, and thou shalt be towards him God (Ton Theon).

The Hebrew does not say "as elohim", "like elohim", "a elohim", or anything like that, it just says "elohim." Notice what the Septuagint says, "and you shall be towards him ton theon." Ton theon is used in John 1:1. Moshe here is not only referred to as "elohim" but also as "ton theon."

NKJV: Exodus 7:1 So the Lord said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God (elohim) to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.

NRSV: Exodus 7:1 The LORD said to Moses, ‘See, I have made you like God (elohim) to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.

Stone Edition Tanach: Exodus 7:1 HA’SHEM said to Moses, “See, I have made you a master (elohim) over Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your spokesman.

LT: Exodus 7:1 YHVH said to Moshe “See, I have made you elohim to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your spokesman.

Septuagint: Exodus 7:1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Behold, I have made thee god (Theon) to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

The Hebrew does not say "as elohim", "like elohim", "a elohim", or anything like that, it just says "elohim." Notice what the Septuagint says, "I have made you theon to Pharaoh." Moshe here is not only referred to as "elohim" but also as "theos."

There are many, many, Greek writings that use the word “theos” (and its other forms) for “created beings.” So, in other words, even the Koine Greek word “theos” when used does not mean it talks about the “true God” when it is used (To name two writings, “Euripides Bacchae” and “Homer’s Odyssey” or “Iliad”). Euripides Bacchae is the most popular play of Roman antiquity. To name one being that was created, was born like any human, with two parents, is “Dionysius.” All heroes of Greco-Roman antiquity could be called “theos”, including Caesars, Asklepios, Hector, Pollux, Heracles, and many, many more. In other words, heroes in Greco-Roman tradition were called “theos.” That merely meant in their tradition that human heroes were granted immortality, it would never mean that they were made equal with Jupiter, Mars, or Panteon. If you want a more detailed document on this info, written by a person who has studied this for years with very reliable resources, please go to www jesusstudies net, go to the page labeled as “Studies”, and then click on the paper labeled as “Romulus, Jesus, and Greco-Roman Apotheosis Traditions.” Keep in mind, this was not written by me, so I do not agree nor support every single word that might be said on this document. This document was graded by Yale University and got an “A.”

Yehoshua (hO Ihsous) was considered as a “hero”, and since the NT was written in Koine Greek (unless it was written in Hebrew of the original which we do not have), it used the word “theos” for “mighty one”, a “hero.” As was proven above, elohim does not have the definition “God”, but how could the Apostles (and other writers of the Bible) explain such a Hebrew word with the definition “mighty one” (Remember, Moshe, angels, judges, and pagan deities were called “elohim” [mighty one/s] in Tanach)? As we see, the Apostles were challenged to bring a translation of Hebrew words (elohim, el, etc) that do not have the definitions of “God” into another language that do not have such words in the language. Thus, they picked a Koine Greek word “theos” (among its other forms) which around that time was used to call created heroes as “theos” (mighty one), and used that Koine Greek word. Can what I just said be proven to be true? Yes, if you re-read what I said from the beginning, in the Septuagint, before the time of the Messiah, they used the Greek word “Theos” (among its other forms) in the place of “elohim” which does not have the definition “God”, but instead the definition “mighty one.”

So, even if Yehoshua (hO Ihsous) was called “theos”, it does not mean he was called “God.” As was said above, in that era, it was common to call “created beings who were heroes” that became “immortal” (cannot die) as “theos”, and Yehoshua surely was a hero and surely became immortal, he cannot die now. The Apostles and Yehoshua spoke Hebrew when they walked around before Yehoshua died (before the time he was resurrected), not Koine Greek. And thus they would have used the word “elohim” which does not have the definition “God.” And thus, if they called Yehoshua as “elohim” it does not prove Yehoshua is the true God, for Moshe (Moses), angels, and judges (among many others) are called “elohim” in the Hebraic Scriptures. And further, Moses, judges, and others were titled as “theos” in the Septuagint.

Knowledge is powerful, but can be destructive to humble people if they get puffed up. Rather, be humble and edify others who are not aware of this truth.
 
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RVincent

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Just so that you have an idea of who I am, as far as beliefs go, I do not believe that the Trinity is God in three separate persons. Fortunately, not all of us study under the same so-called "scholars". ;) Some of us know of the use of elohim in reference to judges, or angels, etc.

The info you give is so much, it becomes confusion and difficult to absorb.

I have a translation that agrees with yours (with a slight variant):

Gen 28:21
and I return in peace to my father's household, then Yahveh becomes my Elohim,

I'm trying to understand what you are saying here:

"Where it says "Then shall YHVH be to me of elohim", it is understandable that YHVH is the Father while el is Ha'Moshiach. Ha'Moshiach is "the messenger of YHVH" who is the created el or you can say the created elohim of Yisrael. Each nation was given a messenger, and Yisrael is given "the messenger of YHVH."

But "elohim", not "el", was used in Gen. 28:21 in both our translations. Which verse are you referring to, and why is it "understandable &c."?

Ps 50:21
You do these things, yet I keep silent; You imagined that I should become, yea become like you. I shall reprove you, and I will arrange the charge before your eyes.

Don't the prior verses make it clear that God is referring to their ways, as opposed to thier likeness?

Your translation reads, "You thought that I was Ehyeh". What MSS is this from? I don't have it.

Also, the Psalm starts out "El Elohim Yahoveh". How does this equate to Messiah, as opposed to YHVH?

Perhaps in the future you could be so kind as to present piece by piece at a time.

You and I may be more in agreement than either of us realize, but again, so much at once makes absorption difficult.

Thank you.
 
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YHVH Ori

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Gen 28:21
and I return in peace to my father's household, then Yahveh becomes my Elohim,

This is not a proper translation, but you have the right to believe what you will.

I'm trying to understand what you are saying here:

"Where it says "Then shall YHVH be to me of elohim", it is understandable that YHVH is the Father while el is Ha'Moshiach. Ha'Moshiach is "the messenger of YHVH" who is the created el or you can say the created elohim of Yisrael. Each nation was given a messenger, and Yisrael is given "the messenger of YHVH."

But "el" wasn't used in Gen. 28:21. Which verse are you referring to, and why is it "understandable &c."?

Genesis 31 and 35 uses אל while Genesis 28 uses אלהים. It is understandable because the Anointed Yehoshua represents the Father.

Your translation reads, "You thought that I was Ehyeh". What MSS is this from? I don't have it.

Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartesia has אֶהְיֶה within Psalm 50:21.

Also, the Psalm starts out "El Elohim Yahoveh".

El, elohim Yhvh.. – The El of YHVH elohim. This is Messiah talking in this Psalm.

Look at the whole Psalm very carefully, this is not Asaph speaking.
 
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RVincent

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Please forgive my curiosity, and my ignorance. I do not know the ancient languages. However, unlike Average Joe Christian, I like to make note of particulars in the text.

My study Bible makes use of Massoratic notes, where necessary, and I use an interlinear because I want to know.

Is this what you have in Josh 22:22 also. This translation may not be perfect, but:

Josh 22:22
`The El of Elohims--Yahveh, the El of Elohims--Yahveh, He is knowing, and Israel, he does know, if in rebellion, and if in trespass against Yahveh (You do not save us this day!)

It is noted as being equivelant to Psa. 50:1, only repeated, which my column says "The God of Gods, even Yahoveh". (I know Asaph isn't speaking.)

I know that Messiah in the New Testament never commanded us to pray to Him or to worship Him, but God only, so I am not uncomfortable with the information you are presenting.
 
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YHVH Ori

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I don't want my thread in the Messianic Judaism area. Whoever moved in here, please move it back to "Unorthodox Theological Doctrines." Messianic Judaism is under "For Christianity Only" (and my post is not considered "Christian" according to your rule #6), I posted this thread under " For All Members" in the "Unorthodox Theological Doctrines", and I would like it to be moved back to its place of origin.
 
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YHVH Ori

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There's nothing strange about the truth.

Addition info to thread:

In Genesis 31:29 and Nehemiah 5:5 (among other places) אל is interpreted as “power.”

In Genesis 23:5-6 and Genesis 30:8 (among other places) אלהים is interpreted as “mighty.”
 
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sojeru

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I never said that the truth was strange my friend
for I myself am a Jew of the Sephardic Orthodox mission.

so do not see me as some Mezzie

and I know of all the things you speak of- this is not foreign to me. I have been trained in the such already. However, i do appreciate your efforts on writting the articles.

Shalom
 
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