• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

1 Maccabees

markedward

εξοδος
Mar 24, 2009
14
0
✟22,625.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'd like to ask thoughts on the book of I Maccabees. Please only weigh your opinion if you've read the book.

For those who have read it...

What are your thoughts on the literary and historical qualities of the book? Is there any reason why this book should not be considered divinely inspired? (I ask that you give a reason other than "It's not in the Bible", because such a response ultimately relies upon circular logic.)

From what I have read... it's historical quality is on par with that of the book of Kingdoms (I & II Samuel, and I & II King) and the book of Chronicles... namely, nothing can be objected to in particular. And, additionally, it fills us in on the historical events which followed the return of the Jews from their Babylonian exile. (The common idea of "the 400 years of silence" of God between the return from exile and the coming of Jesus, so that "obviously" I Maccabees is not inspired from God is, again, circular logic.) On a literary level, I would again say the same; it remains relatively unbiased (aside from its obvious favor for the followers of the true God).

If I remember correctly, it doesn't purport to make any prophecies of its own. Rather, the language it uses implies (but never says outright) that the events it records are in fulfillment of the visions of Daniel (something I agree with regardless of its inspired status).

On a historical level, the book was relatively popular even before the Jews or Christians laid down their official canons of Scripture, and I would argue that Jesus himself even paraphrases the book at one point in his prophetic oracles ("coincidentally" in the very same prophecy in which he refers to the book of Daniel). It has been hypothesized that the only reason the book was not included in a finalized canon by the Jews was because they only came up with their official and final listing after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and that including a book such as I Maccabees that idealized a holy revolt against a pagan kingdom would have put them in just as much hot water as their recently failed revolt against Rome.

Lastly, in terms of religious ceremony, it is this book which (as the book of Esther before it) prescribes a new festival, called "Lights" or "Dedication" (Chanukah), which Jesus is recorded as taking part in. It would seem odd, to say the least, that Jesus, a purist who rejected the piles of legalism that had built up over the previous centuries, would celebrate a religious festival that finds its origins in a book not considered inspired.

To summarize my feelings: On both a literary and historical level, I read I Maccabees on par with Kingdoms and Chronicles. The book was read by both Jews and Christians early on. It was paraphrased by Jesus, who also celebrated the festival prescribed by the book. Aside from using the circular logic of "It's not in the Bible so it's not canonical; it's not canonical so it's not in the Bible", I can't think of any reasons why this book couldn't be considered divinely inspired, any more than a book like Chronicles or Esther, which it is very similar to as regards to style.

Grace and peace.
 

heterodoxical

Active Member
May 8, 2011
361
6
dallas tx
✟530.00
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Is "useful for doctrine" a necessity for it to be considered divinely inspired? It seems that such a criteria is ignored by most Christians when it comes to various books that are usually left alone. (e.g. Esther or Chronicles)

Here is a confession, most people I talk with, are bibliolaters. The Bible @s an idol more important than Jesus commandments themselves. Divinely inspired is not a phrase I use.

Judas Iscariot was divinely inspired.

Pharaoh was divinely inspired.

Genocide was divinely inspired.

See the issue there?... this is how we have it. There are useful thngs for us in everything. God is funny like that. Some of the most ddevout concepts I've grasped, came from atheists. Go figure.

Do you believe god cares and provides? Then accept what he has provided you. The other things have use too. Gideon chaged with 300 men armed with tooting horns and crockpots, do you think that made much sense to him? Yet he trusted and beyond his reckoning a victory was given. Think about it.
 
Upvote 0

markedward

εξοδος
Mar 24, 2009
14
0
✟22,625.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You're not giving an answer to my original question. I've asked a specific question, and am looking for answers to that question. You're sidestepping the issue entirely to answer a completely different question. If you could please step out, as this answer is not helpful for me.
 
Upvote 0