1 John 5:16-17: Question

[graciesings]

1 John 5:16-17 reads
"16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." (NIV)
How do you explain this verse? What did the apostle mean when he wrote this? How does it fit with Protestant theology? And why have I never heard the idea of venial sins mentioned in Baptist churches?

God bless you,
Grace

 

[Bluelion]

He is speaking of the unforgivable sin which damns you to hell. Those that commit it we should not pray they be forgiven for they won't, and it wrong to ask God to forgive them when he already said he would not. He did not mean some sins do not lead to death all sin lead to death, unless you know of some one who has never died. Sin is what kills this body of flesh, but for those who are saved sin can never kill the soul, the second death, hell, is the killing of the soul, or a soul who never was alive in the first place.

The answer is He was speaking of the unforgivable sin.

 

[graciesings]

. He did not mean some sins do not lead to death all sin lead to death,

I mostly follow your reasoning, but I don't get the part I quoted. If what you said is true, why does verse 17 say "there is sin that does not lead to death?"

 

[Bluelion]

. He did not mean some sins do not lead to death all sin lead to death,[\QUOTE]

I mostly follow your reasoning, but I don't get the part I quoted. If what you said is true, why does verse 17 say "there is sin that does not lead to death?"

he was contrasting between the unforgivable sin and normal sin, there is no forgiveness for the unforgivable, but for normal sin you can still repent and be saved. You can not repent from the unforgivable sin.

 

[Skala]

1 John 5:16-17 reads
"16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." (NIV)
How do you explain this verse? What did the apostle mean when he wrote this? How does it fit with Protestant theology? And why have I never heard the idea of venial sins mentioned in Baptist churches?

God bless you,
Grace

Good questions.

It seems pretty straightforward. There are some sins that God considers worthy of ending your life. Some examples:

A lady lied to the Holy Spirit, and died as a result (Acts 5:1-10)

A man was having sexual relations with his father's wife, and was condemned to death by Paul (1 Cor 5:1-5)

A man did not give God the glory, and God killed him immediately. Acts 12:23

Uzzah touched the Ark of the Covenant and got killed him immediately. 2 Samuel

 

[graciesings]

he was contrasting between the unforgivable sin and normal sin, there is no forgiveness for the unforgivable, but for normal sin you can still repent and be saved. You can not repent from the unforgivable sin.

I think I see what you mean... barely. You're saying that since it leads to death we need to repent and be saved so it doesn't lead to death... and that your statement and John's were from different perspectives on the one idea?

 

[graciesings]

Scala,

Thanks! You seem to have studied the Bible deeper than I have and your opinion is appreciated.
Can you think of any times in the Bible where someone committed a sin that didn't merit death? I know that there were people who didn't get struck down immediately but I always figured that was the mere arbitrary will of an incensed God (quoting Jonathan Edwards) Besides, according to Paul the wages of sin is death... so I'm really curious whether the Bible mentions any sins that God didn't regard as punishable by death.

 

[Bluelion]

I think I see what you mean... barely. You're saying that since it leads to death we need to repent and be saved so it doesn't lead to death... and that your statement and John's were from different perspectives on the one idea?

The unforgivable sin is swift death as skala pointed out the cases in his post. normal sin will lead to death if a person does not repent, but a person has time to repent and have it covered by the blood of Christ, however the unforgivable sin will never be covered by the blood of Christ. It is as Jesus said a sin with eternal consequences.

Lets go deeper, normal sin is sin of the flesh, unforgivable sins is a sin of the spirit. People will no doubt argue not all spiritual sin is unforgivable. I believe a person reborn can not commit a spiritual sin.

Those cases skala gave in his post were deep spiritual sins and because the person was unforgiving there time was up. We are all given a time to repent, if you commit an unforgivable sin there is no more time your fate is sealed.

I think you might be understanding, normal sin there is time to repent, unforgivable sin you can never repent from, you die the end.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

I will give you some passages to show that what you think of as death, and God thinks of death are two separate things, first thing to remember though is that to God death is eternal separation from him:

Question: "What is spiritual death?"

Answer: Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God. In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that in the day he eats of the forbidden fruit he will “surely die.” Adam does fall, but his physical death does not occur immediately; God must have had another type of death in mind—spiritual death. This separation from God is exactly what we see in Genesis 3:8. When Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord, they “hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.” The fellowship had been broken. They were spiritually dead.

When Jesus was hanging on the cross, He paid the price for us by dying on our behalf. Even though He is God, He still had to suffer the agony of a temporary separation from the Father due to the sin of the world He was carrying on the cross. After three hours of supernatural darkness, He cried, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” (Mark 15:33-34). This spiritual separation from the Father was the result of the Son’s taking our sins upon Himself. That’s the impact of sin. Sin is the exact opposite of God, and God had to turn away from His own Son at that point in time.

A man without Christ is spiritually dead. Paul describes it as “being alienated from the life of God” in Ephesians 4:18. (To be separated from life is the same as being dead.) The natural man, like Adam hiding in the garden, is isolated from God. When we are born again, the spiritual death is reversed. Before salvation, we are dead (spiritually), but Jesus gives us life. “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” (Ephesians 2:1 NKJV). “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).

To illustrate, think of Jesus’ raising of Lazarus in John 11. The physically dead Lazarus could do nothing for himself. He was unresponsive to all stimuli, oblivious to all life around him, beyond all help or hope—except for the help of Christ who is “the Resurrection and the Life” (John 11:25). At Christ’s call, Lazarus was filled with life, and he responded accordingly. In the same way, we were spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves, powerless to perceive the life of God—until Jesus called us to Himself. He “quickened” us; “not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5).

The book of Revelation speaks of a “second death,” which is a final (and eternal) separation from God. Only those who have never experienced new life in Christ will partake of the second death (Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8

Passages of Gods views of death:

Revelation 20:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14 (1611 King James Bible)
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Luke 15:11-32
The Parable of the Lost Son

11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

Most of the time when God speaks of death he is speaking of a spiritual death, when he spoke to Adam and Eve he was speaking of both physical and spiritual death:

Genesis 3:3

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Now most sin is covered by the blood of Christ, for these sin will not necessarily lead to spiritual, thus permanent death, but there is unpardonable sin:

Bible Verses About The Unpardonable Sin

Matthew 12:31-32 - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (Read More...)

Luke 12:10 - And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Mark 3:28-29 - Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: (Read More...)

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Matthew 12:1-50 - At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. (Read More...)

Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

Matthew 12:31 - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Acts 7:51 - Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

Mark 3:28-30 - Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: (Read More...)

Mark 3:1-35 - And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand. (Read More...)

1 John 5:16-18 - If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. (Read More...)

1 John 5:16 - If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1 John 2:11 - But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1 John 1:1-10 - That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (Read More...)

2 Peter 2:1-22 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (Read More...)

James 5:19-20 - Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; (Read More...)

Hebrews 10:26 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 6:4-8 - For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (Read More...)

Hebrews 6:1-20 - Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (Read More...)

2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

1 Timothy 1:13 - Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.

Romans 8:1 - [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Acts 26:11 - And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled [them] to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted [them] even unto strange cities.

Acts 13:45 - But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

Acts 7:52 - Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 3:18 - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Luke 13:1 - There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

Mark 3:22-30 - And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. (Read More...)

Matthew 12:24 - But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Matthew 5:21-24 - Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: (Read More...)

Hebrews 10:1-39 - For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (Read More...)

I hope I have helped clear this up a little more for you

 

[Skala]

Scala,

Thanks! You seem to have studied the Bible deeper than I have and your opinion is appreciated.
Can you think of any times in the Bible where someone committed a sin that didn't merit death? I know that there were people who didn't get struck down immediately but I always figured that was the mere arbitrary will of an incensed God (quoting Jonathan Edwards) Besides, according to Paul the wages of sin is death... so I'm really curious whether the Bible mentions any sins that God didn't regard as punishable by death.

I think it is obvious that all sins warrant death (the wages of sin is death), but I guess certain sins cause God to give your wages earlier than others God can decide when you die (ie, execute justice) at any time of his choosing, whenever it pleases him.

Since you quoted Edwards, enjoy this other, somehwat relevant quote:

"Nothing is keeping wicked men out of hell at any moment except the sheer pleasure of God"

In other words, the only reason God has not cast wicked men into hell at this exact moment is because it pleases Him to keep them alive a little longer. He can bring down their deserved judgement whenever He chooses.

 

[JuJube]

Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The only unforgivable sin is not excepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

 

[Bluelion]

Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The only unforgivable sin is not excepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

not true the Pharisee committed the unforgivable sin and Jesus told them right there they had done it and it had eternal consequences.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

God is not concerned with physical death, why are all who claim to be born again so concerned with physical death, it is your destination after death that should warrant concern

 

[Bluelion]

God is not concerned with physical death, why are all who claim to be born again so concerned with physical death, it is your destination after death that should warrant concern

i thought everyone was talking about where you after this place, did some one say something about physical death.

 

[JuJube]

not true the Pharisee committed the unforgivable sin and Jesus told them right there they had done it and it had eternal consequences.

Could you give me the reference please. Thanks.

Sorry...look at my next post.

 

[JuJube]

You must be refering to Mark 3:29. I think we are agreeing.
Jesus said when He goes to the Father that He would send back the Holy Spirit to testify about Himself. Jn. 15:26,27
So if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you are rejecting Jesus.
Jn 16:13,14 are also very good

 

[Bluelion]

You must be refering to Mark 3:29. I think we are agreeing.
Jesus said when He goes to the Father that He would send back the Holy Spirit to testify about Himself. Jn. 15:26,27
So if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you are rejecting Jesus.
Jn 16:13,14 are also very good

Its a little more than that they call The Holy Spirit evil, What ever you say about Father and The Son shall be-forgiven, but not what you say against the Holy Spirit.

 

[JuJube]

Its a little more than that they call The Holy Spirit evil, What ever you say about Father and The Son shall be-forgiven, but not what you say against the Holy Spirit.

Mt 12:31-32: Therefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Whoever rejects the prompting of the Holy Spirit removes himself or herself from the only force that can lead him or her to repentance and restoration to God. That is the job of the Holy Spirit.

 

[meinahanna]

For me, it has to be a sin that ahs nothing to do with repentance and looking unto Jesus. (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit), which is a continuous putting off of the Spirit's voice. Now how do you know if someone reached it so we don't pray for them? I HAVE NO IDEA . But there has been situations where you see people not caring and blaspheming God to his face and willfully want to always TRIP you up, Like the false teachers that Paul struggled with or the people that were putting snares in David's path. However, we should always love our enemies and bless those who curse us.

I know I haven't helped that much, but maybe this will help us gain insight into what he's saying here