1 John 3 Sinless Perfection

[AndrewK9]

I am a believer in Christ as my Lord and Savior, but I have to ask about something: First of all, I am looking for something with more substance then just a simple "well we can never be perfect in this life". Second, I saw an article in which someone stated that if you don't believe in sinless perfection or if you have ever sinned since your supposed conversion then you hate holiness and are not even saved. Is there truth to that? Now I got frustrated at myself and even angry (I know THAT IS a sin!) at even the person writing the article because I do not want to "hate holiness" and although mistakes are not sins, that if you have ever sinned since salvation then you did not hate your sin or have conviction over it enough for you to get saved and I even prayed to Jesus that I do not want to be in sin and even asked God to make it impossible for me to sin but I am still frustrated. I still do not know if sinlessness is true or not. Because if it is then I WANT to get sinless. Many a times have I told God "I may fail you a lot in the future but please take these certain desires away".

I want to know, if sinless perfection is possible, how to obtain it, and, what this verse, 1 John 3:9 means; "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." I think that is a strong indicator that sinless perfection might be true, I mean it very plainly says "does not sin". Is there truth to this here? I also want to note in verse 5 it says he was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins and whoever abides in him does NOT sin. Now I know that some people say this verses just means if you are saved you don't PRACTICE sin but it that what John is saying? Any thoughts?

 

[dysert]

I am a believer in Christ as my Lord and Savior, but I have to ask about something: First of all, I am looking for something with more substance then just a simple "well we can never be perfect in this life". Second, I saw an article in which someone stated that if you don't believe in sinless perfection or if you have ever sinned since your supposed conversion then you hate holiness and are not even saved. Is there truth to that? Now I got frustrated at myself and even angry (I know THAT IS a sin!) at even the person writing the article because I do not want to "hate holiness" and although mistakes are not sins, that if you have ever sinned since salvation then you did not hate your sin or have conviction over it and I even prayed to Jesus that I do not want to be in sin and even asked God to make it impossible for me to sin but I am still frustrated. I still do not know if sinlessness is true or not. Because if it is then I WANT to get sinless. Many a times have I told God "I may fail you a lot in the future but please take these certain desires away".

I want to know, if sinless perfection is possible, how to obtain it, and, what this verse, 1 John 3:9 means; "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." I think that is a strong indicator that sinless perfection might be true, I mean it very plainly says "does not sin". Is there truth to this here? I also want to note in verse 5 it says he was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins and whoever abides in him does NOT sin. Now I know that some people say this verses just means if you are saved you don't PRACTICE sin but it that what John is saying? Any thoughts?

Yes, 1 John 3:9 uses the "linear present active" voice, which means the person does not make a practice of sinning. The ESV renders it well:

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
​

I don't believe sinless perfection is possible so long as we are in these mortal tents.

 

[Alive_Again]

Will be back to address this. The short answer is that we have a new nature of which, if we live after it, we will not sin. We have been given "keys" that we can employ to aid us in our renewal, to work the "leaven" of the Spirit within us. This enables us to walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

The two are opposed to each other. The Romans 7 and 8 discourse is not just an identification that we all have a sinful fleshly nature (including Paul), but rather that, we ALSO have a new born again nature within us, of which if we stir up the gift of God and live by, we will instead walk out the holy desires of God He places within us.

As John says, we will sin, but we can choose to walk after our new nature.

I'll come back later with scripture and go into more detail. It's a good question and God has given us keys for renewal that give us strength and momentum to aid us in our walk.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I am a believer in Christ as my Lord and Savior, but I have to ask about something: First of all, I am looking for something with more substance then just a simple "well we can never be perfect in this life". Second, I saw an article in which someone stated that if you don't believe in sinless perfection or if you have ever sinned since your supposed conversion then you hate holiness and are not even saved. Is there truth to that? Now I got frustrated at myself and even angry (I know THAT IS a sin!) at even the person writing the article because I do not want to "hate holiness" and although mistakes are not sins, that if you have ever sinned since salvation then you did not hate your sin or have conviction over it enough for you to get saved and I even prayed to Jesus that I do not want to be in sin and even asked God to make it impossible for me to sin but I am still frustrated. I still do not know if sinlessness is true or not. Because if it is then I WANT to get sinless. Many a times have I told God "I may fail you a lot in the future but please take these certain desires away".

I want to know, if sinless perfection is possible, how to obtain it, and, what this verse, 1 John 3:9 means; "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." I think that is a strong indicator that sinless perfection might be true, I mean it very plainly says "does not sin". Is there truth to this here? I also want to note in verse 5 it says he was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins and whoever abides in him does NOT sin. Now I know that some people say this verses just means if you are saved you don't PRACTICE sin but it that what John is saying? Any thoughts?

What irks me is the changing the words of scripture, like the saying, (you quoted) as I have heard it before..."sinless perfection"... because we cannot say we "have not" sinned (past tense) for all "have sinned" but we know Christ died for sinners (us). Even still, we cannot say "we have" no sin for we have sin "in our members" (otherwise who needs grace?). However, we are told (even though) we have sin in our members that sin (itself) shall not have dominion over us for we are not under the law but are under grace (whereby) sin which is in our members shall not have dominion over us. Notice how they are worded, swinging every which way. Its the God of all grace that makes us perfect, and Paul says if we walk in the Spirit we shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh, or obey sin "in the lusts" thereof. However (again) its the God of all grace who has called us unto eternal glory by Christ (that after) ye have suffered (awhile) will stablish you, settle you and make you "perfect". Even as Peter says, he who has suffered in the flesh "has ceased from" sin. We grow in His grace and wax strong in the Spirit as we are "being" born again, however he who is born again "sinneth not" for his seed abideth in Him. For brevity I freehanded that, but I think you know the verses. Jesus said the disciple is not above His master but he that is perfect shall be as His master, and we are growing up into the perfect man unto the full measure of the stature of Christ. James speaks of the perfect man, one who offends not in word, that man is able also to bridle the whole body, even as it is the Spirit which makes us able, even as it is through the selfsame Spirit we put to death the deeds of the body, we are not alone (without Him we can do nothing)

I cant ever bring myself to say its not possible to be perfect because I dont want it to be according to my faith (in saying) because my hope is to be like Him in this world. The same world the very grace of God teaches us to deny worldly and ungodly lusts and to live righteously and soberly in this present world. Desiring to walk as Christ walked in all things.

So although I wouldnt count myself as perfect or arriving I dont wish to shoot low (but much higher) through His grace, which I dont deem as ineffective or not sufficient to this task concerning me.

But its by grace all the way, and I dont believe His grace is without effect. I believe He has given us the power to be a partaker of his divine nature and to walk as Christ walked (In the Spirit) whereby we will not (as we keep in step with Him) fulfil the lusts of the flesh.

Thats how I understand it, I believe we (as we grow up in Him) will not continue to sin, certainly not wilfully.

 

[MennoII]

The Apostle John wrote I John in response to the false teaching of Gnosticism. One of the false doctrine that John addresses is the gnostic belief that one could not sin in the Spirit while living in total sin in the flesh.

So John addresses this belief of the sinless spirit in I John 1:7-10. Whereas the belief in sinning without care in the flesh is address in I John 3:6-9. So maybe there is such a thing as a sinless Christian, but I don't see it in Scripture and have yet to meet one. I have however meet many perfect Christians (I Peter 1:22; Roman 13:8-9).

 

[Radagast]

I saw an article in which someone stated that if you don't believe in sinless perfection or if you have ever sinned since your supposed conversion then you hate holiness and are not even saved. Is there truth to that?

No. Sinless perfection is not possible in this life.

1 John 3:9 is best translated: "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."

 

[Alive_Again]

The Apostle John wrote I John in response to the false teaching of Gnosticism. One of the false doctrine that John addresses is the gnostic belief that one could not sin in the Spirit while living in total sin in the flesh.

Man, where have I heard that before!?

 

[sapientiauk]

There is a really good book on this issue that you can pick up for less than $10 - Holiness by Henry Blackaby. I really recommend a read.