1 John 1:9

MMXX said:

Backsliders do it. I did it myself to an extent for a period of time.

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But you are still here. Did you save yourself or did God save you from yourself?

Dave L said:

But you are still here. Did you save yourself or did God save you from yourself?

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I was just answering your question of "who does this?" in regard to "If we are sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth".

God saved me from myself. Brought me back to where I'm supposed to be spiritually. But at the time I had drifted I had uncertainty about my salvation. I was in the hospital thinking I was going to have a heart attack, and I called my pastor telling him I wasn't sure about my salvation because I had lost that loving feeling I used to have with the Lord. Not apostasy. Just that deep connection on my part.

But from what you're saying, I would have gone to hell if actually did have a fatal heart attack, because of my doubt at the time.

As you said above, "Did you save yourself or did God save you from yourself?" I would ask, did I condemn myself or would God have saved me from myself?

Dave L said:

Here's the situation. The book covered the Hebrews who were converting from the OT to the NT. Some were returning to the OT committing an unforgivable sin (without repentance). It still happens when people plan on offering sacrifices at a "third temple".

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II Timothy 3:16-17

spiritfilledjm said:

II Timothy 3:16-17

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“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16–17 (KJV 1900)

I believe this is why scripture being completed replaced the charismatic gifts. They were in part.

MMXX said:

I was just answering your question of "who does this?" in regard to "If we are sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth".

God saved me from myself. Brought me back to where I'm supposed to be spiritually. But at the time I had drifted I had uncertainty about my salvation. I was in the hospital thinking I was going to have a heart attack, and I called my pastor telling him I wasn't sure about my salvation because I had lost that loving feeling I used to have with the Lord. Not apostasy. Just that deep connection on my part.

But from what you're saying, I would have gone to hell if actually did have a fatal heart attack, because of my doubt at the time.

As you said above, "Did you save yourself or did God save you from yourself?" I would ask, did I condemn myself or would God have saved me from myself?

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If you are really saved, your works cannot save you. They only improve your walk. If you believe God saved you, it is because he did. And nothing can change that.

Dave L said:

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16–17 (KJV 1900)

I believe this is why scripture being completed replaced the charismatic gifts. They were in part.

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That's a completely different topic but what I was trying to show was that all scripture is applied to all in some way, the book of Hebrews was not just for Hebrew converts though it may have been addressed to them but was for all. If it wasn't, then it is not scripture.

Dave L said:

If you are really saved, your works cannot save you. They only improve your walk. If you believe God saved you, it is because he did. And nothing can change that.

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Trying to not sin is not a work, but an expectation. That is the difference between willful and unwillful.

spiritfilledjm said:

Trying to not sin is not a work, but an expectation. That is the difference between willful and unwillful.

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You need to be saved before you desire holiness as a life-style.

spiritfilledjm said:

That's a completely different topic but what I was trying to show was that all scripture is applied to all in some way, the book of Hebrews was not just for Hebrew converts though it may have been addressed to them but was for all. If it wasn't, then it is not scripture.

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It applies to Premillinialists who embrace Phariseeism and reject Christ. And plan to offer sacrifices in a supposed third temple.

Dave L said:

If you are really saved, your works cannot save you. They only improve your walk. If you believe God saved you, it is because he did. And nothing can change that.

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John Mullally said:

1 John 1:9 starts with "If we confess our sins" - so if he is addressing unbelievers here, then John is including himself as an unbeliever.

In the Lord's Prayer, Jesus includes that his followers should ask the Father to: "Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts". If asking "to forgive us our debts" is a one time event for his followers, then so is the request to "give us this day our daily bread".

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I believe John is addressing the heresy of gnosticism which said that Jesus didn't come in the flesh. This was beginning to infect the church and he was addressing the gnostics (unbelievers). John didn't believe this but addressed it. "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ (1 John 1:1-3). The use of we is the same as saying "in as much as" or "in view of the fact that." He is not saying he believes this, but is clearly separating what he believes and teaches as opposed to what the gnostics believe and teach. As for the Lord's prayer, it was written before Jesus died on the cross. It is the conditional forgiveness of the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, we forgive others with the forgiveness we have already received from God. For example, Ephesians 4:32 says, "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." This is in the past tense. Confession means to agree with God not to ask Him for something you don't have. It is not an act of faith to ask God for something He has already provided. We are forgiven and God is not counting our sins against us any longer. (see 2 Corinthians 5:19; Romans 4:8; Romans 5:13; Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 3:13; Hebrews 10:17-18, etc). Grace and Peace.

Dave L said:

It applies to Premillinialists who embrace Phariseeism and reject Christ. And plan to offer sacrifices in a supposed third temple.

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It applies to all who choose to live a sinful lifestyle, without asking forgiveness or repenting, that they know the Bible says is a sin while still professing to believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and claiming to be Christian. Paul says the same in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

spiritfilledjm said:

It applies to all who choose to live a sinful lifestyle, without asking forgiveness or repenting, that they know the Bible says is a sin while still professing to believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and claiming to be Christian. Paul says the same in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

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More accurately, it applies to all not born-again.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

Dave L said:

More accurately, it applies to all not born-again.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

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Corinthians and Hebrews were written to the churches in Corinth and Jerusalem, giving them specific instruction, these verses were talking to those who profess Christ, not unbelievers.

Also...1 John 3:9 is talking about Jesus specifically, look at 3:8.

spiritfilledjm said:

Corinthians and Hebrews were written to the churches in Corinth and Jerusalem, giving them specific instruction, these verses were talking to those who profess Christ, not unbelievers.

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Don't forget the Hebrews who were becoming members of the New Covenant. How about today's Christians planning to implement animal sacrifices the first chance they get? DO you think any of these have not already committed a Hebrews 6 apostasy?

Dave L said:

How can you believe God saved you (have saving faith) if you think you can lose your salvation?

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We can be assured of our salvation by faith in Jesus to the end.

The power of God to be be saved is by faith in Lord Jesus; so we access God's saving grace through faith - from beginning to end:

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB) 16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB)
5 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

John 12:46 (WEB) 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness.

John 20:31 (WEB) 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

If you remain faithful to the end, you will be eternally saved.

Revelation 3:21 (WEB) He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-11 (WEB)
4 So that we ourselves boast about you in the assemblies of God for your perseverance and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which you endure. 5 This is an obvious sign of the righteous judgment of God, to the end that you may be counted worthy of God’s Kingdom, for which you also suffer.

Revelation 3:1-6 (WEB)
1 “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you.
4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.
5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Luke 21:36 (WEB) 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Romans 11:19-22 (WEB) 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (WEB) Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 9:23-27 (WEB) 23 Now I do this for the sake of the Good News, that I may be a joint partaker of it. 24 Do not you know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run like that, that you may win. 25 Every man who strives in the games exercises self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore run like that, not aimlessly. I fight like that, not beating the air, 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Galatians 6:8-9 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

James 1:12-16 (WEB)
12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Colossians 1:21-23 (WEB) 21 You, being in past times alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil deeds, 22 yet now he has reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without defect and blameless before him, 23 if it is so that you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the Good News which you heard, which is being proclaimed in all creation under heaven, of which I, Paul, was made a servant.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from The Faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (WEB) 20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from The Faith.

Hebrews 3:6 (WEB) 6 but Christ is faithful as a Son over his house. We are his house, if we hold fast our confidence and the glorying of our hope firm to the end.

Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB) 12 Beware, brothers and sisters, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest anyone of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,

“Today if you will hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 10:24-30 (WEB)
24 Let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good works, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries.
28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalm 135:14 31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:36-39 (WEB)
36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise.
37 “In a very little while, he who comes will come, and will not wait.
38 But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” [Habakkuk 2:3-4]

2 Peter 3:17 (WEB) 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

Blessings

Dave L said:

Don't forget the Hebrews who were becoming members of the New Covenant. How about today's Christians planning to implement animal sacrifices the first chance they get? DO you think any of these have not already committed a Hebrews 6 apostasy?

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I do not know of any Christians that agree with that being reinstituted, nor do I agree with it being reinstituted. I do know, however, folks who profess a belief in God while insisting that they can live any lifestyle they choose without repenting because they're under grace and not law...

spiritfilledjm said:

I do not know of any Christians that agree with that being reinstituted, nor do I agree with it being reinstituted. I do know, however, folks who profess a belief in God while insisting that they can live any lifestyle they choose without repenting because they're under grace and not law...

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If you mean by reinstituted as being those who turned away from God but later repented, consider the Prodigal Son. However, those who deliberately continue in unrepentant sin until their death will be eternally lost.

And review this Scripture as well:

Revelation 3:1-6 (WEB)
1 “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you.
4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.
5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Blessings

Dave L said:

But you are still here. Did you save yourself or did God save you from yourself?

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Salvation is from God, however, we access the power of God onto salvation by faithful obedience to Lord Jesus.

1 Timothy 4:1, 16 (WEB) 1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. . . 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh (the carnal mind) will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB) 16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

Blessings

JohnD70X7 said:

1 John 1:9 (AV)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Down through human history... God has confronted man with sin in an attempt to get man to face his sin. 1 John 1:9 is precisely that. We are forgiven all sin (as the tense of "forgive" is in the Greek: has forgiven / does forgive / shall forgive)... but with the confession to God not to others (Psalm 51:4)... we "come along side" God Greek "confess" homo logeo to face and acknowledge our sin...

some say to restore fellowship, I say to remove the sludge we encase ourselves in with sin from our otherwise crystal clear walk with God...

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When we receive the new birth, God the just Judge justifies us, that is, pronounces our not-guilty verdict because Jesus took our guilty verdict on himself on the cross. God removes our legal guilt for the sins of our whole lives.

However, we do accumulate, as you say, the sludge of sins that remain in us. We still are sinners saved by God's great grace with all the credit going to Jesus as our Substitute.

Thus, we need to confess and pray for God's power through Jesus' victory to overcome those remaining sins, though God has set us free from the mastery of sins and Satan.