What do you believe about the rapture?

ps139 · Sep 20, 2004

sarahm12002 said:
Matt 24:37

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

Matt 24:38

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark.

It seems easier to believe Pre-Trib. The tribulation is going to be a time of judgment on the earth, so why would people be giving in marriage? This verse (in my opinion) refers to a coming when people would be caught unaware. The tribulation is 7 years, so nobody will be caught unaware when Jesus comes back at the end of the Trib. Also, Noah was a godly man, and Lot was also. Each time that God has poured out His judgement on the earth, He spares the ones that are faithful to Him. He also "removes" them out of the way. Lot was not in Sodom when it was destroyed. God took him out of the city. So I definately do not think that we will go through the Trib. I believe that God's mercy is great enough that He will remove us from this earth, just as He removed Lot from Sodom, and kept Noah safe in the ark.

Hi Sarah,
I've always interpreted those verses a little differently:

Matt. 24:36-41 said:
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[6] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Verse 39 mentions a "they" and a "them" - a group of people who are taken away. This can either be Noah's family, or those who died in the Flood.
Verse 38 mentions a group of people who were "Eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage........and they knew nothing about what would happen."

The group that knew nothing of what could happen was the group that was taken away. Could this be Noah's family? I do not see how that would be possible, because Noah and his family did know that a Flood was coming, thats why they built the ark. So, Noah & family are not the ones "taken away" - since the people taken away are the same people who did not know what would happen. So I do not see how this could support the Rapture. And I would not want to be part of the group taken away, I'd much rather be saved, in Noah's group!!

sarahm12002 · Sep 20, 2004

ps139 said:
Hi Sarah,
I've always interpreted those verses a little differently:

Verse 39 mentions a "they" and a "them" - a group of people who are taken away. This can either be Noah's family, or those who died in the Flood.
Verse 38 mentions a group of people who were "Eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage........and they knew nothing about what would happen."

The group that knew nothing of what could happen was the group that was taken away. Could this be Noah's family? I do not see how that would be possible, because Noah and his family did know that a Flood was coming, thats why they built the ark. So, Noah & family are not the ones "taken away" - since the people taken away are the same people who did not know what would happen. So I do not see how this could support the Rapture. And I would not want to be part of the group taken away, I'd much rather be saved, in Noah's group!!

Thanks for your views, ps139!

I actually believe (and most pre-tribbers don't) that the people who don't know the day or hour are the ones that don't go in the rapture. I believe that just before the Rapture happens, God will let his elect know when it will be. But still, if you think about it, God "removed" Noah and his family from the rest of the world. And God Himself shut the door to the ark. I find it interesting though, that Noah AND Lot were both "removed" from the evil place that they were dwelling in. If the Lord spared Noah and Lot of His judgment, surely He would spare us too? He loves us just as much as He loved them, and His mercy is just as great!

Sarah

FreeinChrist · Sep 20, 2004

xenia said:
I see a lot of posts here of the "I used to believe ________ but then I did a THOROUGH STUDY OF THE MATTER and now I believe ____________." Yet your diligent and sincere studies have brought many of you to different conclusions.

Why's that?

-Xenia

I believe that when many folks do a "thorough study", they aren't doing it in a systematic way. Often what they describe is very superficial.
They aren't including everything he Bible has to say, or looking at the overall picture of how God deals with those that are faithful and those that aren't, and not seeing the clues that are in the OT or fully understanding the symbolism.

xenia · Sep 20, 2004

I believe that when many folks do a "thorough study", they aren't doing it in a systematic way. Often what they describe is very superficial.

According to who? Many non-superficial books have been written supporting all these views. I am sure that all the authors also asked for the Holy Ghost to lead them into all understanding, too. Yet there are conflicting opinions.

Why's that?

Seriously, if sincere study and asking for the help of the Holy Spirit results in so many views, isn't it time to re-evaluate your method of arriving at Biblical truth?

-Xenia

BigEd · Sep 20, 2004

I am a post-triber

here are some reasons why:

1. Looking at scripture at in a straight forward, and in context, make a post-trib rapture make more sense then a pre-trib.

2. The fellowship of Christ's sufferings. Time and time again we are told by jesus that we will suffer persecution and tribulation.

3. many place in the world Christian are suffering persecution and tribulation (go to www.persecution.com to find out more about this). in sudan, in the arab world and indonesia and in china, believers are be beaten, imprisoned and killed for their faith. This does not seem to fit with the idea of christian being wisked away form tribulation.

4. the fruits of pre-trib are seen in the sort "alamo" additude of much of american christanity. The idea of creating seperate "christian" school and media , rather then reaching out and reaching the lost.

5. As a post-triber I can take the veiw of being a solider of Christ, not get pulled out in the end of the war, but following our victorious Lord in to battle, to preach the gospel, and if nessicary die for it, in knowledge that we will be with Him.

I am not saying I am 100% sure about post-trib but of the possition i have look at in the bible this seem to best fit what is writen. Still, there is much in bible prophacy that is dificult to understand. And though we have the Holy Spirit to guide us , we still have this fleshly "old" man that can decieve us.

In many way I think the pre-tirb possition is very much a modern amercian sort of one. We are comfortable and safe. we really do not strugel with persecution like some of our brother and sister do in other parts of the world. I think for many Christians the idea of facing the tribulation as set out in revaltion is terrifing. In some ways it is a "feel good" escatology. We leave , they suffer. There is something about that doesn't seem very Christ-like. Instead a post-trib veiw see us a s bold witnesses, empower by the Holy Spirit, to bear witness for Christ that is soon to come. And possibly to die for that belief just as our bothers and sister are doing in other parts of the world right now.

xenia · Sep 20, 2004

Hi BigEd,

Looking at scripture at in a straight forward, and in context, make a post-trib rapture make more sense then a pre-trib.

In your opinion.

The pre-tribbers, of course, say the exact same thing about their view. And what of the post and a- mils? They have a completely different take on end-times and they say their view is also straight forward and in context. It is presumptuous to think that one's own view is the only view one can arrive at by diligent study alone.

I happen to agree with you that Christians will go through tribulation before the return of Christ, BTW. But, I didn't arrive at this conclusion by my own study. It is the ancient teaching of my Church so I am relieved of the burden of having to sort through Daniel, Matthew and Revelation on my own.

God bless you,
In Christ Xenia

FreeinChrist · Sep 21, 2004

xenia said:
According to who? Many non-superficial books have been written supporting all these views. I am sure that all the authors also asked for the Holy Ghost to lead them into all understanding, too. Yet there are conflicting opinions.

Why's that?

Seriously, if sincere study and asking for the help of the Holy Spirit results in so many views, isn't it time to re-evaluate your method of arriving at Biblical truth?

-Xenia

The thing about the endtime is that it is prophecy. None of us has the exact answer. Only God knows when it will be and exactly how it will be.
All we can do if is study and learn. Some do it deeper than others.

I think what is behind your comment is a belief that we should listen to a church organization like the Orthodox church, am I right? I don't have anything in particular against that church, but I I don't beleive they have it quite right.

Iosias · Sep 21, 2004

msortwell said:
FreeinChrist makes an interesting observation (see post #20). While proponents of dispensational theology (the chief stewards of the pretribulational rapture) like to claim that they have the market cornered on the historical-grammatical (sometimes termed literal) interpretation of the Scriptures, the hermeneutical approach used is essentially the same as that used by conservative reformed theologians.

Personally, the pretrib rapture grew out from a literal interpretation however the reformed theologians hold to amillenialism because they fail to apply a literal method to eschatology.

Kingdom_Come · Sep 21, 2004

I would still appreciate a pre-tribber (someone who believes the Rapture takes place prior to the revealing of the man of sin and/or prior to the judgments and events and the "final 7 years") to take some time and walk us through The Scripture that supports their interpretation. I would appreciate a Scriptural walk through from someone that believes the Rapture takes place before the 7 year period begins.

Iosias · Sep 21, 2004

Kingdom_Come said:
I would appreciate a Scriptural walk through from someone that believes the Rapture takes place before the 7 year period begins.

These are the Biblical quotes that support pre-tribulationalism:

1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, .

1 Corinthians 15:23 'But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Kingdom_Come · Sep 21, 2004

Those are great Scriptures AV but they do not sequentially place the Rapture at any particular point in time with regard to the events of the end time. They merely state that those that are in Christ will be raptured. However, we still need to find Scripture that says "when" during the course of events we can look up to see that our redemption does indeed draw nigh.

xenia · Sep 21, 2004

...we should listen to a church organization like the Orthodox church, am I right?

You are right; that's what I think.

-Xenia

Iosias · Sep 21, 2004

Kingdom_Come said:
Those are great Scriptures AV but they do not sequentially place the Rapture at any particular point in time with regard to the events of the end time. They merely state that those that are in Christ will be raptured. However, we still need to find Scripture that says "when" during the course of events we can look up to see that our redemption does indeed draw nigh.

If you would not mind answering the following question: What is the purpose of the tribulation?

In Christ Forever · Sep 21, 2004

AV1611 said:
If you would not mind answering the following question: What is the purpose of the tribulation?

I am still trying to figure out this passage here. It appears God is allowing His saints to be "killed" then the wraths and vengeance come untill the hour is ready. Is this before or during the tribulations?

reve 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both [the number of] their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they [were,] was completed.

psalm 6:15Precious in the sight of the LORD [Is] the death of His saints. 16 O LORD, truly I [am] Your servant; I [am] Your servant, the son of Your maidservant; You have loosed my bonds. 17 I will offer to You the sacrifice of thanksgiving, And will call upon the name of the LORD. 18 I will pay my vows to the LORD Now in the presence of all His people, 19 In the courts of the LORD's house, In the midst of you, O Jerusalem. Praise the LORD!

Kingdom_Come · Sep 21, 2004

Ok AV, I see where you're going with this

and I'll bite so you can take us on this journey. I see the tribulation period as two fold. This is a time of the great tribulation and persecution of the saints and Israel (those in Jerusalem in particular) and it is also a time of God's wrath and judgment poured out on the ungodly (collectively referred to as The Great Tribulation). I'll leave it at that for now.

AnnieSue · Sep 22, 2004

The word tells us that we are not appointed to wrath. We are presently in tribulation...not a 7 year tribulation period but tribulation.

Since the time of the early church Christians have been persecuted for their belief.

At the last trump the dead in Christ shall rise first and then those of us who remain meet Jesus in the clouds. The last trump is the 7th trumpet in the book of Revelation. Careful reading shows that this is not at the beginning or the middle of the Trib period because of all the things that have gone before.

Then the wrath is poured out. Many believe this a drawn out process but nothing in Rev would lead us to believe that the vials are not poured out within a very short time frame.

Konnie · Sep 22, 2004

Before the Tribulation

FreeinChrist · Sep 22, 2004

AnnieSue said:
The word tells us that we are not appointed to wrath. We are presently in tribulation...not a 7 year tribulation period but tribulation.

Since the time of the early church Christians have been persecuted for their belief.

At the last trump the dead in Christ shall rise first and then those of us who remain meet Jesus in the clouds. The last trump is the 7th trumpet in the book of Revelation. Careful reading shows that this is not at the beginning or the middle of the Trib period because of all the things that have gone before.

Then the wrath is poured out. Many believe this a drawn out process but nothing in Rev would lead us to believe that the vials are not poured out within a very short time frame.

I don't believe the 7th trumpet is the last trump referred to in I Cor. 15. Trumpet calls were used ofr several reasons in scripture.

And as far as being in the tribulation now? I disagree. The persecution of Christians has been going on for almost 2000 years - but that persecution is from spiritual forces of darkness. But in the Tribulation period, while there is persecution of those that turn to Christ and refuse the mark, the seals, trumpets and vials are from God on "those who dwell on the earth" and they are not accepting of Christ.

Starstreak M86 · Sep 22, 2004

Proud Pre-Tribulationist here!

When I first became a Christian, I was a Post-Tribulationist, but after studying the Bible I have become a Pre-Trib.

xenia · Sep 22, 2004

...after studying the Bible I have become a Pre-Trib.

Not to pick on Starstreak because he is saying what many of you are saying: I came to my End Times belief based on Bible study.

When you guys did your studies, did you use commentaries? Books? Web sites? If you did, then you are relying on Tradition- the Tradition of those authors.

The only people who can say they are not relying on someone's Tradition is someone who had no idea about Christianity at all and was marooned on a desert island with only a Bible. Do you think such a person could or would come to the elaborate pre-mid-post Tribulation scenarios from just reading the Bible alone?

Remember, it doesn't have to be ancient to be Tradition. You can have a Tradition that's only 50 years old.

-Xenia

What do you believe about the rapture?

When do you think the rapture will take place

Before the Tribulation

During the Tribulation

After the Tribulation

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