Biology question

Sophismata · Aug 1, 2003

Trying to question the possibility of a couple of every animal fitting on the Ark. I've seen sources state that the Ark has an estimated footage of ~95,000. About how many species of mammal, reptile, and bird (as stated in the Bible) are there?

oneiric · Aug 1, 2003

http://www.carm.org/questions/noahsark.htm

One issue that is often raised against Christianity is Noah's Ark and the Flood. Did it really happen? Did the flood really cover the whole world? Is there enough water on earth to cover all the land? Could the ark really hold two of every kind of animal in the world? Though these might be intimidating questions, the answer to each is a resounding, "Yes."
God said to Noah in Genesis 6:14-16, "So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks" (NIV). According to God's Word, Noah built the ark. Eight people entered it and all humanity died in the ensuing flood.
Did the flood really happen? Yes. Jesus said in Matt. 24:37-39 that the flood happened. If you can't trust Jesus, you can't trust anyone. As far as physical evidence goes there are numerous sedimentary deposits world wide which suggest a universal flood. There are countless fossil deposits world wide (For fossilization to occur organisms must be buried rapidly with sediment.). Every major culture has a flood legend. Of over 200 flood legends, 95% say the flood was universal; 70% say survival depended upon a boat; 66% say the wickedness of man was the cause; 88% say there was a favored family; 66% say the remnant was warned; 67% say animals were also saved; 57% say the survivors ended up on a mountain; 35% say birds were sent out; 9% say eight people were saved; and 7% mention a rainbow.
Is there enough water to flood the entire earth? Absolutely! If the earth were perfectly spherical the oceans would cover all the land by more than a mile in depth. The biblical account is that it rained for 40 days and nights in which the floodgates of the heavens were opened up as well as the fountains from the earth (Gen. 7:11;8:2). There is a theory known as the canopy theory that states it had never rained on the earth up to the time of Noah and that a mist watered the plants (Gen. 2:6-6). The theory goes on to state that there may have been a heavy cloud or water vapor layer over the entire earth and that it was this canopy of water that became torrential rains during the flood period.
Did the flood cover all the earth? Yes it did. The depth of the flood waters is described in Gen. 7:19 as covering "all the high mountains under the entire heavens." Also, there are many references in the Bible to it being global: Gen. 6:1,4-5,12,13,17,19;7:4,6,10,19;8:3;9:15. There were 40 days of rain (Gen. 7:12), 110 days of flooding (Gen. 7:24) and 221 more days of draining (Gen. 8:1-5,13-14). That is a total of 371 days of flooding that covered the mountains. That could not be a local flood.
Could the ark really contain all the animals of the world? Again the answer is "Yes." But let's look at the last question in more detail. The ark took about 120 years to build. Noah was 480 years old when he began the work and he had the help of his wife, three sons, and his son's wives. He probably hired local people to help in the construction.
The dimensions of the ark have a ratio of six to one. The Ark was six times longer than it was wide. This is the best ratio for modern ship building. Model stability tests have shown that the design is stable for waves up to 200 feet high and that the ark could have rotated 90 degrees and still righted itself.
The volume of the ark would be 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high. This equals 1,518,750 cubic feet and is comparable to 569 modern railroad boxcars. Therefore each boxcar, by comparison, would be 1,518,750 ÷ 569, or 2,669 cubic feet of space. The average size of an animal on the earth is smaller than a cat. But, just to keep it safe let's consider the average size of an animal to be a sheep. The average double deck stock car holds 240 sheep. The Ark capacity would be about 569 x 240 equaling 136,560 animals of that size. However, that still is not accurate for our needs. Since most birds, reptiles, and amphibians are much smaller, let's double the boxcar capacity for them. Therefore, the boxcars could each hold 480 different kinds of birds, reptiles, amphibians.
Noah had to take two or seven of every kind of animal on the earth. Though it is not really known exactly what is meant by a biblical kind, it is generally considered to be animals that are fertile within their own groups. Any dog can breed with any dog, therefore, dogs are one kind. It would only be necessary to bring representatives of each kind since the parents could produce offspring that would carry the genetic information for all variations within their kind.

Classification . . . . Number of Species . . . . Number of Kinds on the Ark
Mammals . . . . . . . . .3,700 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3,700 (a few live in water).
Birds . . . . . . . . . . . . 8,600 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60,200 (seven pairs according to
Gen. 7:3)
Reptiles. . . . . . . . . . .6,300 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,300
Amphibians. . . . . . . .2,500 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,500
Fishes. . . . . . . . . . . .20,600. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Other marine life . . . 192,605. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Insects . . . . . . . . . . . 850,000 . . . (Since insects are very small, and a great many could be stored in a small area, calculation would be difficult.)
Total . . . . . . . . . . . .1,072,305 . . . . . . . . . . . . .72,700
The total number of mammals would be 3,700 times two pair which equals 7,400 animals. 7,400 divided by 240 = 31 boxcars used.
Since Gen. 7:3 says to take seven pairs of every bird then the total for birds would be 8,600 times two pair times 7 or 120,400 animals. 120,400 ÷ 480 = 250 boxcars. The reptiles and amphibians would be 6,300 plus 2,500 or 8,800. 8,800 times two pair equals 17,600 animals. 17,600 divided by 480 = 37 boxcars.
The total number of boxcars used would be 318 with a total number of animals at 145,400. There would be 251 boxcars left over. That means that only 56% of the ark would be used for storing the animals. Obviously, then, the rest of the space would be used for food for the people and animals and sleeping quarters. In addition, considering that insects are extremely small, it is easily conceivable that they could be housed in part of the remaining space.
It should also be considered that many animals can hibernate. Additionally, predators and prey have been known to habitat peacefully together during situations of stress like fire, flood, or earthquake. In the Ark, normal animal behavior would probably have been different from normal. Specialists in animal behavior have noted that animals can sense danger and have often migrated to escape it. Perhaps God used their migratory instincts to get them to the Ark.
Though this is only a brief analysis, it should present enough evidence that the Ark account is certainly within the realm of possibility.

Sophismata · Aug 1, 2003

Very interesting, very interesting indeed. Yet, does this number include the estimated 95% of species that have ever lived which are now extinct such as dinosaurs, trilobites, labryinthodonts, et al. I've seen estimates for number of currently living mammals to be 4,500. Also, how could have fish survived global food considering it significantly throws off their habitat by disturbing ocean currents and things of the like.

Frumious Bandersnatch · Aug 1, 2003

oneiric said:
http://www.carm.org/questions/noahsark.htm

One issue that is often raised against Christianity is Noah's Ark and the Flood. Did it really happen? Did the flood really cover the whole world? Is there enough water on earth to cover all the land? Could the ark really hold two of every kind of animal in the world? Though these might be intimidating questions, the answer to each is a resounding, "Yes."
God said to Noah in Genesis 6:14-16, "So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks" (NIV). According to God's Word, Noah built the ark. Eight people entered it and all humanity died in the ensuing flood.
Did the flood really happen? Yes. Jesus said in Matt. 24:37-39 that the flood happened. If you can't trust Jesus, you can't trust anyone. As far as physical evidence goes there are numerous sedimentary deposits world wide which suggest a universal flood. There are countless fossil deposits world wide (For fossilization to occur organisms must be buried rapidly with sediment.). Every major culture has a flood legend. Of over 200 flood legends, 95% say the flood was universal; 70% say survival depended upon a boat; 66% say the wickedness of man was the cause; 88% say there was a favored family; 66% say the remnant was warned; 67% say animals were also saved; 57% say the survivors ended up on a mountain; 35% say birds were sent out; 9% say eight people were saved; and 7% mention a rainbow.
Is there enough water to flood the entire earth? Absolutely! If the earth were perfectly spherical the oceans would cover all the land by more than a mile in depth. The biblical account is that it rained for 40 days and nights in which the floodgates of the heavens were opened up as well as the fountains from the earth (Gen. 7:11;8:2). There is a theory known as the canopy theory that states it had never rained on the earth up to the time of Noah and that a mist watered the plants (Gen. 2:6-6). The theory goes on to state that there may have been a heavy cloud or water vapor layer over the entire earth and that it was this canopy of water that became torrential rains during the flood period.
Did the flood cover all the earth? Yes it did. The depth of the flood waters is described in Gen. 7:19 as covering "all the high mountains under the entire heavens." Also, there are many references in the Bible to it being global: Gen. 6:1,4-5,12,13,17,19;7:4,6,10,19;8:3;9:15. There were 40 days of rain (Gen. 7:12), 110 days of flooding (Gen. 7:24) and 221 more days of draining (Gen. 8:1-5,13-14). That is a total of 371 days of flooding that covered the mountains. That could not be a local flood.
Could the ark really contain all the animals of the world? Again the answer is "Yes." But let's look at the last question in more detail. The ark took about 120 years to build. Noah was 480 years old when he began the work and he had the help of his wife, three sons, and his son's wives. He probably hired local people to help in the construction.
The dimensions of the ark have a ratio of six to one. The Ark was six times longer than it was wide. This is the best ratio for modern ship building. Model stability tests have shown that the design is stable for waves up to 200 feet high and that the ark could have rotated 90 degrees and still righted itself.
The volume of the ark would be 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high. This equals 1,518,750 cubic feet and is comparable to 569 modern railroad boxcars. Therefore each boxcar, by comparison, would be 1,518,750 ÷ 569, or 2,669 cubic feet of space. The average size of an animal on the earth is smaller than a cat. But, just to keep it safe let's consider the average size of an animal to be a sheep. The average double deck stock car holds 240 sheep. The Ark capacity would be about 569 x 240 equaling 136,560 animals of that size. However, that still is not accurate for our needs. Since most birds, reptiles, and amphibians are much smaller, let's double the boxcar capacity for them. Therefore, the boxcars could each hold 480 different kinds of birds, reptiles, amphibians.
Noah had to take two or seven of every kind of animal on the earth. Though it is not really known exactly what is meant by a biblical kind, it is generally considered to be animals that are fertile within their own groups. Any dog can breed with any dog, therefore, dogs are one kind. It would only be necessary to bring representatives of each kind since the parents could produce offspring that would carry the genetic information for all variations within their kind.

Classification . . . . Number of Species . . . . Number of Kinds on the Ark
Mammals . . . . . . . . .3,700 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3,700 (a few live in water).
Birds . . . . . . . . . . . . 8,600 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60,200 (seven pairs according to
Gen. 7:3)
Reptiles. . . . . . . . . . .6,300 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,300
Amphibians. . . . . . . .2,500 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,500
Fishes. . . . . . . . . . . .20,600. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Other marine life . . . 192,605. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Insects . . . . . . . . . . . 850,000 . . . (Since insects are very small, and a great many could be stored in a small area, calculation would be difficult.)
Total . . . . . . . . . . . .1,072,305 . . . . . . . . . . . . .72,700
The total number of mammals would be 3,700 times two pair which equals 7,400 animals. 7,400 divided by 240 = 31 boxcars used.
Since Gen. 7:3 says to take seven pairs of every bird then the total for birds would be 8,600 times two pair times 7 or 120,400 animals. 120,400 ÷ 480 = 250 boxcars. The reptiles and amphibians would be 6,300 plus 2,500 or 8,800. 8,800 times two pair equals 17,600 animals. 17,600 divided by 480 = 37 boxcars.
The total number of boxcars used would be 318 with a total number of animals at 145,400. There would be 251 boxcars left over. That means that only 56% of the ark would be used for storing the animals. Obviously, then, the rest of the space would be used for food for the people and animals and sleeping quarters. In addition, considering that insects are extremely small, it is easily conceivable that they could be housed in part of the remaining space.
It should also be considered that many animals can hibernate. Additionally, predators and prey have been known to habitat peacefully together during situations of stress like fire, flood, or earthquake. In the Ark, normal animal behavior would probably have been different from normal. Specialists in animal behavior have noted that animals can sense danger and have often migrated to escape it. Perhaps God used their migratory instincts to get them to the Ark.
Though this is only a brief analysis, it should present enough evidence that the Ark account is certainly within the realm of possibility.

So now all you have to do is explain how a 600 year old man and 7 family members cared for all these animals on a big wooden boat for year. Not that they would have had to because a wooden boat that size would not have been seaworthy.

The flood of Noah is falsified by geology, paleontology, biogeography, biodiversity and archeology to start with. Many of the falsifications are on the board right now with no answers from creationists.

Why don't you try to answer some of them. No one else has.

Sophismata · Aug 1, 2003

and... how to fit the other ~19 million species of now-extinct animals and... how he collected these animals considering their habitat is endemic to certain geographical regions (did he go around the world collecting animals?). Your suggestion of migratory patterns is questionable considering that some animals would have had to cross oceans to achieve this.
and... how the massive pile up of defecation did not cause problems within the Ark wether it be 1 million or 20 million species on the Ark, that's a copious amount of fecal matter.
and... how your statement "predators and prey have been known to habitat peacefully together during situations of stress like fire, flood, or earthquake." applies to living harmoniously in very cramped conditions inside an Ark.

Pete Harcoff · Aug 1, 2003

Sophismata said:
how he collected these animals considering their habitat is endemic to certain geographical regions (did he go around the world collecting animals?).

Who knows. Many flood-proponents invoke God at whim to clear up any problems with things like Noah gathering and caring for the animals, etc.

Sophismata · Aug 1, 2003

Who knows. Many flood-proponents invoke God at whim to clear up any problems with things like Noah gathering and caring for the animals, etc.

Well, at that point you get circular reasoning. consider the following axioms:

1. Invisible Pink Unicorns exist and are composed of virtual particles
2. Upon death, your soul will be converted into virtual particles and lack of belief in these deities will result in eternal and infinitely painful rape.
3. Invisible Pink Unicorns created the Earth and Universe by flatulations.
4. Invisible Pink Unicorns made the Earth and Universe look somewhat like cosmology, archaeology, and biology predicts, and not like the source of flatulation, as a test of faith.

prove me wrong!

Pete Harcoff · Aug 1, 2003

Sophismata said:
Well, at that point you get circular reasoning.

It's not so much circular as it is ad-hoc and completely unverifiable.

Which is why I usually grant all the God-invoked miracles necessary to make Noah's Ark and the flood possible. But it's the effects of the flood on the world, however, that creationists cannot simply invoke God to explain (unless they want to argue that God deliberately covered his tracks; which is an undebatable point and not theologically sound, anyway).

MartinM · Aug 1, 2003

oneiric said:
The average size of an animal on the earth is smaller than a cat

Whaat? OK, there are a lot of beetles and all, but...cite?

Supanova · Aug 2, 2003

Being a Christian - I have no problems in believing the account of the flood. I don't know lots and lots about this topic... except what the bible tells me, but here a few thoughts on some of the questions (as far as I can answer them).

Frumious Bandersnatch said:
So now all you have to do is explain how a 600 year old man and 7 family members cared for all these animals on a big wooden boat for year. Not that they would have had to because a wooden boat that size would not have been seaworthy.

The flood of Noah is falsified by geology, paleontology, biogeography, biodiversity and archeology to start with. Many of the falsifications are on the board right now with no answers from creationists.

Why don't you try to answer some of them. No one else has.

When you consider the ages of the people back in the beginning of this world - Noah was a mere youngster at 600 years old! (e.g. Adam died at 930yrs, Seth- 912yrs Enosh- 905yrs, Cainan - 910yrs - Jared lived til 962yrs!) and the fact that Adam had been made physically perfect so those few future generations would not have had the same effects that old age has nowadays.

Why wouldn't the boat have been seaworthy? God told him exactly how to build it - like Oneiric quotes, the most stable boat designs today are based on the same dimensions and as God knows best in all situations, I think it was probably a remarkable vessel.

About the animals on-board - God said:
" Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive." Genesis 6:20 NKJV - so Noah just had to wait for them to arrive.
Up until the flood there were no predators or prey -
' "Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.' Genesis1:30 NKJV
so there wouldn't have been a problem with keeping animals apart etc.

and Noah and family would have been veggies..
"And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food." Genesis 1:29 NKJV - which is why in Genesis 6:21 is says "And you shall take for yourself of all food that is eaten, and you shall gather it to yourself; and it shall be food for you and for them."

Size/space-wise: I would have thought most of the animals etc. would have been youngsters - take up less space and more breeding years available. (they couldn't have been eggs etc. as they wouldn't have known whether they were male or female). And also, as quoted before, there was no need to take 100 different breeds of dog on-board, just one type.

The world was very different before the flood - and a lot of our ideas about how animals etc behave today come from life after the flood. This is a hard thing to comprehend if you aren't a bible-believing person!

I wish I knew more about what actually happened, but I know it will all be made clear when I finally meet my maker! But maybe some of this may help any non-christians see where the christian's view comes from.

Frumious Bandersnatch · Aug 2, 2003

When you consider the ages of the people back in the beginning of this world - Noah was a mere youngster at 600 years old! (e.g. Adam died at 930yrs, Seth- 912yrs Enosh- 905yrs, Cainan - 910yrs - Jared lived til 962yrs!) and the fact that Adam had been made physically perfect so those few future generations would not have had the same effects that old age has nowadays.

I have always wondered what those people did when their teeth wore down to nothing. Do you suppose pre-flood humans grew endless sets of teeth like sharks? I guess they must have had telomerase in their fibroblasts to keep their tendons and the dermal part of their skin from degenerating.

Why wouldn't the boat have been seaworthy? God told him exactly how to build it - like Oneiric quotes, the most stable boat designs today are based on the same dimensions and as God knows best in all situations, I think it was probably a remarkable vessel.

The largest wooden boats ever built were much smaller than the ark and they leaked when they flexed under wave action even though braced with steel. The tendency of a beam to flex under load goes as the cube of its lengths so building models won't tell you much about this problem. Here we have a giant wooden boat with no method of steering that was supposed to have survived a year long flood that rearranged all the world's geology. Absurd!

Up until the flood there were no predators or prey -

This is also absurd. Do you think sabre tooth tigers(Smilodon Fatalis) and tyranosaurs and velociraptors had those big teeth and claws for eating fruits and nuts or grass? Besides there is clear evidence of predation in the fossil record that was supposedly deposited by the flood. We have discussed this here before. I'll look for the links if I have time.

The world was very different before the flood - and a lot of our ideas about how animals etc behave today come from life after the flood. This is a hard thing to comprehend if you aren't a bible-believing person!

I think you will find that many Bible believing people don't believe in your interpretation of the Bible. What is hard to comprehend is how any intelligent person could believe in the myth of the worldwide flood in spite of all the evidence against it.

Now how do you supposed 8 people cared for thousands of different types of animmals on a giant boat during a year long flood? Have you ever cared for farm animals without modern farming methods? I have. Do you know any people who work as vetrinarians in zoos or as animal trainers? I do. Do you know how many people zoos need to care for far fewer animals of far fewer different types? To care for one tenth of the number of different kinds of animals alleged to be on the ark typically takes about 10 times the number of people alleged to be on the ark and that is under far better conditions and with far more modern conveniences than could have been on the ark.

The you have the problem of post ark survival with all those hungry predators, a totally unworkable predator prey ratio and a world devastated by being under the waters of a flood that supposedly rearranged all the world's geology during a year long inundation.

Then you need to explain how all the unique animals found in many regions of the world got to places where they exist without the company of other animals who supposedly came off the ark with them.

http://www.christianforums.com/t40474&page=1

The Frumious Bandersnatch

JohnR7 · Aug 2, 2003

Frumious Bandersnatch said:
The flood of Noah is falsified by geology, paleontology, biogeography, biodiversity and archeology to start with. Many of the falsifications are on the board right now with no answers from creationists.

Your English is better than mine, so really there is no excuse for you to make a false statement like this. Noah's flood as we read it in the Bible has never been falsified and it never will be falsified.

What is being falsified is the theory or interpretation that it was a world wide flood and that all the mountains were under water. If you look at it from the viewpoint of science, then Noah's flood was a local flood and the only animals he had room for on his ark were the biodiversified animals from the area Noah was from. Which happened to be the Tigris Euphrates Valley area. The Ark is believed to have landed north of there in Armenia. Even to this day the Armenians have preserved ancient books and records that no other group of people were able to preserve.

There were two or three floods in this area that wiped out whole civilizations and Noah's flood could have been anyone of those. The were two or three civilizations wiped out. Then when the water drained other people would go in and farm the area because flood planes makes for really good farming land.

Noah really only needed to know a little bit about science to know that there was a flood coming. Even though the people would not believe him. Later on they built levys and damns so that they used a more advanced way of dealing with the floods than Noah did with his Ark.

But the Ark is still a very important type or symbol in the Bible. If people better understood the shaddows and types in the Bible and their spiritual meaning, then they would have a better understanding of what went on in the natual and in the physical world.

If people can not understand what went on in the natural, then how are they going to understand it's spiritual meaning?

Pete Harcoff · Aug 2, 2003

Supanova said:
Up until the flood there were no predators or prey -

So where did the Earth's predators (and there are a LOT of them) come from?

Frumious Bandersnatch · Aug 2, 2003

John, you are right. You will notice that I almost always specify that I mean the worldwide flood. The flood of Noah is not falsified as a local flood, which I have said several times before. I just happened to forget this time.

The Frumious Bandersnathc

JohnR7 · Aug 2, 2003

Frumious Bandersnatch said:
Now how do you supposed 8 people cared for thousands of different types of animmals on a giant boat during a year long flood?

You have to consider God's miracle of supply. They did not have to fill the food bins, because they never went empty. Just as when Isreal lived in the desert for 40 years and their shoes did not wear out and they did not have to replace their clothing. So God would have kept the animals groomed. Also, there would not have been as much of a mess to clean up after, because their food would have been what God provided for them and closer to what they needed. So there would not have been as much waste, compared to them eating a diet different from the one that God intended for them.

In the natural perhaps. But your not taking the miracle power of God into consideration. If what you were saying is true, then this world would be a impossible place to live in. Sometimes we have to put a little bit of work and effort into it. But God makes up for what we can not do and everything works out just fine.

It amazes me when people just do not see how much God is an active part of the world we live in. At least you do not have to wonder how all the animals got into the Ark. The Bible clearly says that God did it.

Frumious Bandersnatch · Aug 2, 2003

You have to consider God's miracle of supply. They did not have to fill the food bins, because they never went empty.

Those people who call themselves creation scientists claim that no miracles were required beyond God telling Noah to build the ark and sending the animals. Of course with a local flood it seems to me that only the animals in local area would need to be saved. I also think it very unlikely that any local flood lasted a year. However, the subject of this thread is the biological problems with the worldwide flood.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

JohnR7 · Aug 2, 2003

Frumious Bandersnatch said:
However, the subject of this thread is the biological problems with the worldwide flood.

Yes, there is a biological problem with saying all the animals in the world were on Noahs Ark. No matter if you could physically do it or not. The question is: How many dogs did Noah have on his Ark? Did he have two dogs? They how do we have so many different breeds of dogs today?

How many monkeys did he have? How did the monkeys get to the biodiverse areas they are in now? Why does it look like the individual biodiverse ecologys were established at a date before the flood?

There are lots of questions, and people who believe that all the animial in the world were on Noahs Ark, can not answer the questions. Although maybe Darwin could answer the question

There are perhaps a lot of people who would be willing to believe that a ancestor of all life on the earth was on Noah's Ark, if you could just show them how this would be possible. Even if the Ark were as big as all of texas, there is a distribution problem involved with how all the animals got to the ark and then how did they get back to where they came from.

Sophismata · Aug 2, 2003

Wow, John, you are starting to make at least some sense now.

In the natural perhaps. But your not taking the miracle power of God into consideration. If what you were saying is true, then this world would be a impossible place to live in. Sometimes we have to put a little bit of work and effort into it. But God makes up for what we can not do and everything works out just fine.

It amazes me when people just do not see how much God is an active part of the world we live in. At least you do not have to wonder how all the animals got into the Ark. The Bible clearly says that God did it.

But using the "Godidit" explination means it's not scientific, so why bother trying to explain something scientifically that by definition is not scientific?

JohnR7 · Aug 2, 2003

Sophismata said:
Wow, John, you are starting to make at least some sense now.

But using the "Godidit" explination means it's not scientific, so why bother trying to explain something scientifically that by definition is not scientific?

Why would it not be "scientific" as long as you can observe the effect. There are a lot of things in science that you do not see the cause, but you can observe the effect of that cause. From the effect you can start to understand something of what caused that effect.

I am not interested in a christianity that is powerless. That would be like a toothless tiger or lion. I want to see a demonstration of the power of God in my life and in the life of others in a powerful way and in a positive way, not just a feel good experance but changed lives and lives changed for the better. Drug addicts who are delivered from their addiction, alcoholics that are set free and their life, job and family restored. That is the sort of effects I am looking to see.

When we hear a testimony of someone who was at hell's gate and death's door and God reached out to them and they recovered. Science can say, yes they were going to die. Yes they are healthy now, we do not have an explaination. (Usually followed by: "Is there anything else we can help you with".) You can see the effect, but you can not see the cause with natural eyes. Science has no explaination for recovery other than maybe a "spontaneous remission" theory.

So even if science and christianity disagree over the "unseen" cause, they both can see and observe the effect of that cause.

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Jesus warns us not to let man made traditions to cause the word of God not to have an effect on us and on our lives.

Sophismata · Aug 2, 2003

Why would it not be "scientific" as long as you can observe the effect. There are a lot of things in science that you do not see the cause, but you can observe the effect of that cause. From the effect you can start to understand something of what caused that effect.

Yes, that is true, but with science, the effect can always be reproduced in laboratory conditions. For example, virtual particles can't, by definition, be observed directly but their effects can always be reproduced. An example of this is nuclear radiation, which is caused by the weak force and is an interaction of W+, W- or Z0 virtual vector bosons that can't be detected, but nuclear radiation can always be observed. Supernatural events and miracles can't be reproduced or directly observed, their cause is only speculation. If it were possible to reproduce, you could always get a person say a prayer in such a way that God would always respond. Faith is necesary for the belief in God, and faith is definetly not scientific.

Drug addicts who are delivered from their addiction, alcoholics that are set free and their life, job and family restored. That is the sort of effects I am looking to see.

Miracles as a cause for these effects is merely speculation because similar, and more valid, hypotheses can be contrived that do not involve supernatural intervention.

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