Hey, no problem. I really admire your ability to say sorry. It takes a lot of humility to do that. I started another thread and posted my reasons there why I disagree with Ltd Atonement. You can check it out there.
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Andrew said:Excuse me, but preaching and teaching that Christ did not die for all men but only some is the "heresy, vile and disgusting", not the other way round.
Christ died for all, plain and simple, not just a special group, which I'm sure the hyper Calvinists somehow include themselves in by virture of their own doctrine!
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
The 2 verses wld not make sense if Christ did not shed his blood for the sins of all men.
Drotar said:Now what motivates us- the fact that we know that the word of the Lord WILL NOT return void,a nd that whatever God ordains WILL come to pass. Not maybe. Not hopefully. Will. We know that our God is UNSTOPPABLE at accomplishing whatever He so wills.
Drotar said:(BTW, in this I differ with Sproul. This is also why I had to edit my last paper on sin and salvation- instead of believing that regeneration is a reversing of our old nature, I think that more accurately it is a creating of a second, new nature, and the slow fatality of the old. I think that by calling regeneration a reversing of our old nature, it places too little emphasis on the fact that that old nature is still present. In fact, some may unintentionally forget to add into their theology that the old nature wasn't technically reversed because then it wouldn't be present.
I say it was "fatally wounded" and dying but not dead, thus requiring our perseverance and cooperative effort of sanctification to putting to death the old desires of the flesh.)
Maximus said:I voted that God's purpose was to make salvation actual for all people. Before you all jump to conclusions, let me say that I am not a Universalist.
But, since the OP was asking about God's purpose, that is my answer. God wants everyone saved (1 Tim. 2:3-6). That was His purpose in becoming a man and dying for the sins of the world (John 3:16).
He did not do that just to make salvation possible.
Jesus' life, His death on the Cross, His descent into hell, and His resurrection, actually secured the salvation of all of mankind in the objective sense. It is finished. Salvation, in this sense, is completely by grace, not by anything any ordinary fallen human can do, including having faith.
Yet we know that not all people will be saved.
Why?
Because God has chosen to apply the grace secured by His Son through faith (Eph. 2:8-10): the kind of faith that manifests itself in works of righteousness (James 2) and no other kind.
Since God desires all people to be saved (1 Tim. 2:3-6), and it is apparent that not all people will be saved (Matt. 25:31-46), what can it be that is thwarting God's desire?
Must be the free will of man, who can choose (Joshua 24:15) to accept or reject God's gracious gift of salvation in Jesus Christ.
Andrew said:Excuse me, but preaching and teaching that Christ did not die for all men but only some is the "heresy, vile and disgusting", not the other way round.
Christ died for all, plain and simple, not just a special group, which I'm sure the hyper Calvinists somehow include themselves in by virture of their own doctrine!
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
The 2 verses wld not make sense if Christ did not shed his blood for the sins of all men.
Jerry_M said:and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; and therefore since it was the same which was everywhere preached, they might depend upon the truth of it, should have the greater value for it, and by no means relinquish it. This must be understood not of every individual creature, even human and rational, that was then, or had been in, the world; but that it had been, and was preached far and near, in all places all over the world, to the Gentiles as well as to the Jews; who are sometimes styled "every creature", "the creature", "the whole creation", "all men", &c. see Mar_16:15 ***_2:11; and of this, the first preaching of the Gospel by Peter after our Lord's resurrection, was an emblem and pledge, Act_2:14; and some time after that, the sound of all the apostles went into all the earth, and their words to the end of the world:
servingtheking said:The intent was to make salvation possible for all people, even if only a few accept it.
Yes anyone that truly accepts Christ as their savior recieves salvation.
Excellent question reformationist, I believe that he only saved those that accept him. He makes salvation possible for all people through his death, and saves those who accept him as their savior. I honestly think that a solid argument can be made for either opinion.
servingtheking said:1 Timothy 2:3-4
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
God desires all of us to be saved through his plan, but since part of his creation is in hell, salvation isn't automatic. Jesus' death provided an opportunity for God's plan to work, yet some still go to hell.Do all men REALLY have an equal (read fair) opportunity to be saved? Or are some more equal than others?
If God desires something can he not bring it to pass?Romans 1:16
"For I am not ashamned of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and then the Greek."
Context means everything / At this time the jews felt they were the elect of God and they held the way to salvation. It was the purpose of Christ to ingraft other limbs on that vine (the symbol of Israel) .So over and over you read that God wishes all men or jews and gentiles because the message was being given to the jews that they were no longer Gods exclusive people. All( PAS) does not always mean all without exception . It often means a limited part of a group.
You have quoted Roman 1:16. What do you do with the rest of Romans?
Rom 3:10**
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11**
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
clear stated unregenerated man does not want or seek God
I see this verse as all those who choose to believe in the Gospel are saved, like the Greeks. They were not God's choosen people but through Christ's death salvation was made possible for them if they believed.
Are you saying that Jesus did not die for anyone?
Bastoune said:How does God "fail" if not everyone is saved? Did God then not also "fail" with Adam and Eve who did not even have the taint of original sin in them when they sinned?
Before I expound, think a minute about Judas Iscariot.
I'll be back.
servingtheking said:How so? [color]=red]Am I able to boast becasuse I recived and accepted Gods free gift of His Son?[/color] Didn't Christ die for the sins of the world? Therefore doesn't everyone have an opportunity to be saved? God knows who will accept this gift and who will go to hell.
I do believe I will. If God had wanted to save everyone he would have made man without a choice to do good or evil, right? He wouldn't have given man a choice.
If God made the world and all that was in it and it became what it is today, isn't it by the sinful choices of the humankind? The possibility for salvation is possible to all men becasue Christ died for all therefore all have died. So if we chose not to accept the greatest gift of salvation that is given to all through Christ then we are ****** to hell are we not?
Becasue if you don't believe that Christ died to forgive your sins, then you will go to hell. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You can't not believe in God and say, well I don't have to listen to his comandments because my sins are paid for by the Atonement. Isn't it Paul that said that our Liberty in Christ is not a liscence to sin?Yes God is immutable and I believe there is a hell.
If you are looking for a verse try 1 Corinthians 1:3-9
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
Andrew said:Excuse me, but preaching and teaching that Christ did not die for all men but only some is the "heresy, vile and disgusting", not the other way round.
Christ died for all, plain and simple, not just a special group, which I'm sure the hyper Calvinists somehow include themselves in by virture of their own doctrine!
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
The 2 verses wld not make sense if Christ did not shed his blood for the sins of all men.
Drotar said:It was either Grace Unknown or Willing to Beleive.
I'll try to find it. Give me a sec...
Ah, I stand correctd. Sorry about that. Here's where I got messed up:
"What is generated anew is the person's nature."
It's on the topic "Regeneration and Dispensationalism". I find ocmments like that occasionally in his writing.
Then again, I also found, "Something is added to the human nature, namely the indwelling presence of the Holy SPirit."
In Lorraine Boettner, I remember reading something about regeneration being the "reversing of our old nature's polarity." Or soemething like that. Right now, my task is to make extra clear that regeneration is the ADDING, not the CHANGING of our nature. I'm pretty sure that I heard him say that it was the changing of our old nature, I've heard it somewhere... Oh well, yu're a bigger Sproul guy than I. I think you're right on this one.
TTYL Jesus loves you!
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. - 2 Peter 2:1
(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. - 1 Timothy 4:10
Reformationist said:I don't know bro. I don't think there is a substantial theological difference between "changing our nature" and "giving us a new nature." I will say that, at least from a theological pespective, as long as we don't say that God adds to our fallen nature without transforming us into the image of Christ then we'll be fine. Obviously this transformation is not, in reality, instantaneous but legally, according to justification, we are holy in God's eyes. But, as I said, there is a very real transformation but I would personally explain this as learning to live for our regenerate nature, which is now our natural nature, and learning to die to our fallen nature which still compels us to disobey God.
As always, it's been a pleasure reading your insight.
God bless