What was God's eternal purpose in Christ's atonment?

calgal · Jul 20, 2003

HopeTheyDance said:
The more I read on..the more I am inclined to agree with Ref, Knight and Obi-wan(Woody)...still learning though, and may never make up my mind completely.....Thank God for His Grace

I am with you and would like to add Drotar to the list of Calvinist jedi masters.

Reformationist · Jul 20, 2003

servingtheking said:
The intent was to make salvation possible for all people, even if only a few accept it.

So all the verses that say that Jesus "came to save" really mean that Jesus came to "make salvation possible?"

Could you share some verses that lead you to believe this? Thanks.

Yes anyone that truly accepts Christ as their savior recieves salvation.

Ummm...you said His intent was to "make salvation possible for all people." Whether they "accept" is a different issue, right?

Excellent question reformationist, I believe that he only saved those that accept him.

So His death was limited in it's atonement? See, the part that confuses me about this "unlimited" view of atonement is that very few people believe it yet so many act as if they do.

Here's the difference between my view of limited atonement and your view of limited atonement:

Reformationist - Christ's death, while unlimited in value, was limited in purpose. The purpose of Christ's propitiatory death is to provide actual salvation by virtue of a vicarious imputation.

servetheking - Christ's death was unlimited in value and unlimited in purpose. The purpose of Christ's propitiatory death is to provide the possibility of salvation to all people ever created.

Reformationist - God is effective in accomplishing the salvation of every last person that He sent His Son to die for.

servetheking - God is effective in accomplishing no person's salvation. He merely accomplished all people's possible salvation. Man must add his own belief to the work of Christ for that work to be of any benefit to him.

Reformationist - Those who are saved look to Christ as their Savior because they were saved by His Works of redemption.

servetheking - Those who are saved can look to Christ as the Provider of the possibility of salvation.

Reformationist - God accomplishes what He sets out to accomplish.

servetheking - God accomplishes His purpose sometimes but sometimes His own creation thwarts His plan.

You see servetheking, you and I both believe in a "limited atonement." You just see the limitations as something that are the result of man's works, i.e., he refuses Christ's gift. I, OTOH, see God as completely sovereign and able to bring about His desires. Man cannot thwart His sovereign plan.

God bless

servingtheking · Jul 20, 2003

Reformationist said:
So all the verses that say that Jesus "came to save" really mean that Jesus came to "make salvation possible?"

Could you share some verses that lead you to believe this? Thanks.
God bless

1 Timothy 2:3-4
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

God desires all of us to be saved through his plan, but since part of his creation is in hell, salvation isn't automatic. Jesus' death provided an opportunity for God's plan to work, yet some still go to hell.

Romans 1:16

"For I am not ashamned of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and then the Greek."

I see this verse as all those who choose to believe in the Gospel are saved, like the Greeks. They were not God's choosen people but through Christ's death salvation was made possible for them if they believed.

Drotar · Jul 20, 2003

To be fair, you must also consider all the verses I posted as well.

There are several explanations for 1 Tim. 2. I get this one so often it's crazy. First, the book was written to the elect. People who were already Christians. Check the context, and it could be eschatological.

I don't think so though. I think that God "does not delight in the death of the wicked." He doesn't ENJOY sending people to hell. We BOTH believe that. But He is a just God and a sovereign God. His desire differs from His decree. It breaks His heart to have to punish His children, as I'm sure it will hurt us when we're fathers. But beyond emotions, He must and chooses to do what is right. My pastor once told me, "He mourns over the reprobate, though their condemnation is their own. He rejoices over the elect, though He purposed their salvation." In other words, He doesn't enjoy justly sentencing people to the consequences of their actions. But He does what is right.

Romans 1:16 has nothing to do with LA. But while it's there, we as Calvinists do believe that all who want to be saved, and that all who choose Jesus will be saved. The only problem is that since our nature is sinful, NOBODY WANTS TO CHOOSE GOD unless first He calls and regenerates and convicts them. In other words, it is the result of God's action, and only that, that creates a desire to be saved. All who believe the gospel will be saved. But no one can repent unless God FIRST acts. For if sin is our nature, without God's help how can we repent of that which we love?

TTYL Jesus loves you!

Drotar · Jul 20, 2003

Man, I'm so happy about the poll results! I can't BELIEVE that there are so many Calvinists on these forums. I'm going to celebrate- (yeah, I'm a nerd).

Reformationist · Jul 21, 2003

servingtheking said:
1 Timothy 2:3-4
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

God desires all of us to be saved through his plan, but since part of his creation is in hell, salvation isn't automatic. Jesus' death provided an opportunity for God's plan to work, yet some still go to hell.

As Drotar relayed, this is speaking of God's benevolence. Though God is Just in punishing the wickedness of man He does not delight in the necessity to do so.

Romans 1:16

"For I am not ashamned of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and then the Greek."

I see this verse as all those who choose to believe in the Gospel are saved, like the Greeks. They were not God's choosen people but through Christ's death salvation was made possible for them if they believed.

Huh? All this says is that those who believe in the saving work of the Lord shall be saved. It says nothing about the "possibility" of salvation, nor does it imply a universalistic atonement.

God bless

Reformationist · Jul 21, 2003

Drotar said:
I don't think so though. I think that God "does not delight in the death of the wicked." He doesn't ENJOY sending people to hell. We BOTH believe that.

I agree.

But He is a just God and a sovereign God. His desire differs from His decree.

Again, I agree.

It breaks His heart to have to punish His children, as I'm sure it will hurt us when we're fathers.

Umm...when you say "His children" to whom are you referring?

My pastor once told me, "He mourns over the reprobate, though their condemnation is their own. He rejoices over the elect, though He purposed their salvation."

Nicely said.

Romans 1:16 has nothing to do with LA. But while it's there, we as Calvinists do believe that all who want to be saved, and that all who choose Jesus will be saved. The only problem is that since our nature is sinful, NOBODY WANTS TO CHOOSE GOD unless first He calls and regenerates and convicts them.

Well said Drotar.

In other words, it is the result of God's action, and only that, that creates a desire to be saved. All who believe the gospel will be saved. But no one can repent unless God FIRST acts. For if sin is our nature, without God's help how can we repent of that which we love?

Good question.

God bless

Drotar · Jul 21, 2003

Ugh, glad you caught that. I still have my mormon roots that I'm trying to get rid of. I keep calling everyone God's children.

Noo! This is why I can't be a Calvinist jedi master lol.

Reformationist · Jul 21, 2003

Drotar said:
Ugh, glad you caught that. I still have my mormon roots that I'm trying to get rid of. I keep calling everyone God's children.

Noo! This is why I can't be a Calvinist jedi master lol.

LOL!!

Knight · Jul 21, 2003

Drotar said:
Ugh, glad you caught that. I still have my mormon roots that I'm trying to get rid of.

Try not. Do or Do Not. There is no Try.

servingtheking · Jul 21, 2003

thats the first time I have heard star wars in any connection with mormanism

Bastoune · Jul 22, 2003

Reformationist said:
I'm sure that I'm biased but this makes sense to me and it actually answers my question. The alternative, which many seem to be fine with accepting, is that God's purpose in sending His Son to die was to save all people but it's okay that God fails as long as human free will is maintained.

Let me reiterate to all who answer the question in my OP is that I'm not asking whether Christ's sacrifice atoned for all or only for some but rather, what was God's purpose in sending His Son.

Thanks,
God bless

How does God "fail" if not everyone is saved? Did God then not also "fail" with Adam and Eve who did not even have the taint of original sin in them when they sinned?

Before I expound, think a minute about Judas Iscariot.

I'll be back.

Reformationist · Jul 22, 2003

Bastoune said:
How does God "fail" if not everyone is saved?

I don't believe God failed if everyone is not saved because I don't believe God's purpose/intent in sending His Son was to accomplish the salvation, or even accomplish the possibility of salvation, for all people. I believe that God accomplishes exactly what He set out to accomplish, which is the salvation of His elect. I do not believe that man is autonomous, regardless of his disposition towards God. All people are subject to God. The Plan of God is not subject to the will of His creation.

Did God then not also "fail" with Adam and Eve who did not even have the taint of original sin in them when they sinned?

There is no parallel of Adam and Eve's relationship with God prior to the Fall found in created man post-Fall so to discuss the similarities between pre-Fall man and post-Fall man adequately we must take into account the state in which each were created.

I'm not sure I understand your question. Maybe you could rephrase it.

Before I expound, think a minute about Judas Iscariot.

What about him?

I'll be back.

When you come back please take note of the following rule set forth by the owner of this MB:

3) Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.

Bastoune · Jul 24, 2003

You had stated, "The alternative, which many seem to be fine with accepting, is that God's purpose in sending His Son to die was to save all people but it's okay that God fails as long as human free will is maintained."

And I didn't understand what you meant in assuming God "fails" if Christ were to die for all people yet not all people get to Heaven. That's at the root of my confusion. I didn't understand your comment quoted above.

When I asked if God "failed" if Adam and Eve sinned and fell from grace (and they were created without Original Sin; it's from them that we inherit it but they didn't have it in them when created)?

Reformationist · Jul 24, 2003

Bastoune said:
And I didn't understand what you meant in assuming God "fails" if Christ were to die for all people yet not all people get to Heaven. That's at the root of my confusion. I didn't understand your comment quoted above.

If I could not look to Christ's life and death as efficacious in propitiating the wrath of God against my sinfulness, pray tell, what exactly would I be so grateful for? Should I count it all joy because Christ died so that I "just might" end up persevering? Should I worship the Lord because He made it "possible" that I be saved? Sorry Bastoune, I don't think that glorifies any of the Godhead.

The confusion, in my opinion, is a result of you and I having a difference of opinion on what exactly God sent Christ to accomplish. I think Christ's mission was our actual salvation. From what I understand of the Catholic teaching, His mission was merely to provide the "possibility" of salvation to all people and the defining difference in those who do end up saved and those who don't is found in the creation, not the Savior. Sorry but I don't think that glorifies God in the least. I think that glorifies man.

When I asked if God "failed" if Adam and Eve sinned and fell from grace (and they were created without Original Sin; it's from them that we inherit it but they didn't have it in them when created)?

It's funny you bring this up. I was just reading about this very thing.

Tell me, why do you think that a creation that God had pronounced "good" would make the choice to rebel? The Lord said that a "good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit" (Matt 7:18). "Cannot" is not a reference to permission, but rather ability. Jesus is saying that it is not possible for a "good tree," which is what Adam and Eve were, to do bad works. It's against their very nature. Yet, I doubt that anyone would argue that their original act of transgression wasn't bad. Of course it was bad. It was mutiny against God Himself.

Tell me, how can a creation that is "good" commit a bad work if the Lord Himself said that a "good tree cannot bear bad fruit?"

God bless

calgal · Jul 24, 2003

servingtheking said:
thats the first time I have heard star wars in any connection with mormanism

Mormons make good Imperial Storm Troopers.

Drotar · Jul 25, 2003

calgal said:
Mormons make good Imperial Storm Troopers.

They make good wookies. I can never for the life of me make out any coherency in whatever they try to communicate.

Drotar · Jul 25, 2003

May I add to Reformationists's post that if only 10% of the world's population are actually saved and God intended to save all, then God's eternal plan of salvation has a 10-1 failure rate. That means that for everyone 1 person God saves, Satan is nine times more effective at soul-winning.

I would not fear that God, I'd feel sorry for Him. Did God succeed in what He intended to accomplish? TTYL Jesus loves you!

CCWoody · Jul 26, 2003

servingtheking said:
1 Timothy 2:3-4
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

God desires all of us to be saved through his plan, but since part of his creation is in hell, salvation isn't automatic. Jesus' death provided an opportunity for God's plan to work, yet some still go to hell.

Ahhh, yes, the favorite "pet verse" of those who claim that Jesus only made man saveable: That He has done His part, His work, and now it is up to man to do the rest. But, the very nature of such a construction delcares that man must complete the work of salvation. And, despite the non-Calvinist's protestations to the contrary, if God did not do all the work of salvation, then the Atonement is not complete and man must finish the work.

This would give man a cause for boasting and glory in the presence of God.

Yet, if God has completed all the work of the Atonement, then I will simply ask: Why, then, are not all men saved?

You will answer: Because of unbelief?

Well, is not this unbelief a sin, which you will claim that God made an Atonement? Why then should this sin hinder a man in his salvation more than any other for which the Lord Atoned?

But, you have an even bigger problem with this verse:

What do we know but that God is immutable.
And, what do we all agree, but that there will be an everlasting place of torment.

When the Lord makes a promise, we ought to be out of doubt that He knows, and can and will perform what He promises; otherwise, we will be accounting Him neither true nor faithful, which is UNBELIEF, the height of irreverence, and a denial of the Most High Himself! And how can we be sure and certain, unless we know that certainly, infallibility, immutably, and necessarily, He knows, wills and will perform what He promises? We should be sure that God wills, and will execute His will, necessarily and immutably. Otherwise, where is the foundation of our assurance that what God wills for us will be executed necessarily and immutably?

Yet, the Arminian will tell me that it is God's expressed will and desire to save all men everywhere without any exception.

My specific question is this: Seeing that the Arminian can only resolve the existence of souls in perdition with a change in God's will for them from one of a will to save to a will to destroy forever and noting that this of necessity means that God's will is NOT immutable,...

then, what specifically is the foundation of their assurance that what God wills for us will be executed necessarily and immutably?

I'll let you chew on these questions a while before I explain to you that this verse doesn't even get you where you want with the Atonement. There are a number of reasons why this is so, but even were I to grant the non-Calvinist assertion that all must mean all everywhere without any exception, instead of the more Biblically accurate all men everywhere without any distinction, you would only strengthen the Calvinist position with that verse.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

servingtheking · Jul 27, 2003

CCWoody said:
This would give man a cause for boasting and glory in the presence of God.

How so? Am I able to boast becasuse I recived and accepted Gods free gift of His Son? Didn't Christ die for the sins of the world? Therefore doesn't everyone have an opportunity to be saved? God knows who will accept this gift and who will go to hell.

CCWoody said:
Yet, if God has completed all the work of the Atonement, then I will simply ask: Why, then, are not all men saved?

You will answer: Because of unbelief?

I do believe I will. If God had wanted to save everyone he would have made man without a choice to do good or evil, right? He wouldn't have given man a choice. If God made the world and all that was in it and it became what it is today, isn't it by the sinful choices of the humankind? The possibility for salvation is possible to all men becasue Christ died for all therefore all have died. So if we chose not to accept the greatest gift of salvation that is given to all through Christ then we are ****** to hell are we not?

CCWoody said:
Well, is not this unbelief a sin, which you will claim that God made an Atonement? Why then should this sin hinder a man in his salvation more than any other for which the Lord Atoned?

Becasue if you don't believe that Christ died to forgive your sins, then you will go to hell. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You can't not believe in God and say, well I don't have to listen to his comandments because my sins are paid for by the Atonement. Isn't it Paul that said that our Liberty in Christ is not a liscence to sin?

CCWoody said:
What do we know but that God is immutable.

And, what do we all agree, but that there will be an everlasting place of torment.

Yes God is immutable and I believe there is a hell.

CCWoody said:
When the Lord makes a promise, we ought to be out of doubt that He knows, and can and will perform what He promises; otherwise, we will be accounting Him neither true nor faithful, which is UNBELIEF, the height of irreverence, and a denial of the Most High Himself! And how can we be sure and certain, unless we know that certainly, infallibility, immutably, and necessarily, He knows, wills and will perform what He promises? We should be sure that God wills, and will execute His will, necessarily and immutably. Otherwise, where is the foundation of our assurance that what God wills for us will be executed necessarily and immutably?

CCWoody said:
then, what specifically is the foundation of their assurance that what God wills for us will be executed necessarily and immutably?

I am sorry I do not understand who you mean by "their" if you mean Christians isn't it in the Bible, and if you don't than you mean unbelievers. There are no fence sitters. And unbelievers need no assurance becasue they are not going to heaven unless something calls them to accept Christ.

If you are looking for a verse try 1 Corinthians 1:3-9

3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

What was God's eternal purpose in Christ's atonment?

What was God's eternal purpose in Christ's Atonement?

To make salvation possible for all people

To make salvation actual for all people

To make salvation possible for His elect

To make salvation actual for His elect

Other (please explain)

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