question for reformationist/ predestined /elect believers

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I can eat 50 eggs

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Funny thought just crossed my mind. I've met a number of people that believe in predestination/election.

I just realized that everyone of these people also believe that they are part of the elect.

2 questions.

1. how do you know if you are elected?

2. Have you ever met anyone that believes in election, but doesn't think they were elected?

 

I just thought it was kind of funny that everyone I've evet talked to that believes this firmly believes they are one of the elect. 
 

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Today at 01:48 PM I can eat 50 eggs said this in Post #1

1. how do you know if you are elected?

If you have a sincere desire to do the Will of God and live your life in obedience to Him then you are not only elect but regenerate.

2. Have you ever met anyone that believes in election, but doesn't think they were elected?

I can't see how a person who is not regenerate would care one way or the other being that they don't truly believe in God anyway.  If a person is regenerate then they are elect.  You can't be regenerate and not be of God's chosen.  A person can be elect and not regenerate however.  Every single person I've ever met has been in the latter catagory at some point because it encompasses anyone who lived part of their life as a non-believer. 

Hope that helps.

God bless,

Don
 
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Hey Reform, since this thread is about asking you questions I would like to know do you know of any scriptures that say something like, "God elects people or his believers" or something like "God has predestined all believers".. something like that .. I would like to at least give your point of view a fair look and see if I can learn something more from it by having an open mind.

Missy
 
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SoccerAaron

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Here are some scripture proofs for Unconditional Election, if that's what you mean.

Unconditional Election

Exodus 33:19
19 And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the Lord before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."

Psalms 65:4
4 How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You To dwell in Your courts. We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple.

Matthew 11:27
27 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Matthew 22:14
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:22
22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.”

Matthew 24:24
24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.”

Matthew 24:31
31 "And He will send forth His angels with ‘a great trumpet’ and ‘they will gather together’ His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”

Mark 13:20
20 "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.”

Luke 18:7
7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

John 6:37
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”

John 6:65
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

John 8:47
47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

John 10:26
26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

John 13:18
18 "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.'”

John 15:16
16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”

John 17:2, 9
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life…
9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;”

John 18:37
37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

Acts 13:48
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:28-39
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things ? If God is for us, who is against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things ?
33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect ? God is the one who justifies;
34 who is the one who condemns ? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword ?
36 Just as it is written, "For Your sake we are being put to death all day we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels , nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 9:8-23
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son."
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived * twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger."
13 Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate my power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole Earth."
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory.

Romans 11:5-8
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8 just as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day."

Ephesians 1:4-6
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Colossians 3:12
So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5
4 knowing , brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 1:8-9
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

2 Timothy 2:10
10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Titus 1:1
1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

1 Peter 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

1 Peter 2:9
9 But you are “a chosen race,” a royal “priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession,” so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

1 Peter 5:13
13 She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark.

Revelation 13:8
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Revelation 17:8
8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come .

Revelation 17:14
14 "These will wage war against the Lamb , and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."
 
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Reformationist

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I would also add these:

Ephesians 1:11,12
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Jude 4
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Also, it is not just certain things coming to pass.  There are verses which speak pointedly of God's purpose being fulfilled through the avenue of the ungodly:

Acts 4:27,28
"For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

God bless
 
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sbbqb7n16

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I would say that that is because election by God is a spiritual principle :) Natural men don't understand spiritual stuff

1 Cor_2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

With all that scripture posted above me ^^^^^^^^^^^

I don't see how anyone can argue :) Have a great day!
 
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Hoonbaba

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1. how do you know if you are elected?

I don't.  But I believe I am of the elect who will remain in God

2. Have you ever met anyone that believes in election, but doesn't think they were elected? 

I haven't met any =P

As for scriptural references to predestination. Check out Rom 8:29-30, Eph 1:5,11

For those who don't know, I'm turning Catholic, yet I still hold on to much of the 5 points of Calvinism ;)

-Jason
 
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9-iron

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29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

You have a buddy who is working late and will miss the big game. You decide to tape it for him. When he gets off work you sit down and watch the game with him again. A wide-out breaks free and heading deep down the side-line, you buddy is screaming he's open...he's open. Now you watched the game live so you know what is going to happen. That is how God is, He already knows who will accept Him.
The above scripture says 'whom He foreknew'. My interpretation is since He already knows who will accept Him, He goes ahead and grants them the inheritance they have in Christ in the Kingdom. Now God's Kingdom is not of this world and it has no end. I can't see where that means He chooses who will accept Him and who won't. I haven't established a hard believe one way or the other on predestination so this thread really caught my eye. I don't want to get into a heated debate over it, but would really like for you guys to share a little more insight with me.....Thank You...
 
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sad astronaut

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9-iron said:
You have a buddy who is working late and will miss the big game. You decide to tape it for him. When he gets off work you sit down and watch the game with him again. A wide-out breaks free and heading deep down the side-line, you buddy is screaming he's open...he's open. Now you watched the game live so you know what is going to happen. That is how God is, He already knows who will accept Him.
The above scripture says 'whom He foreknew'. My interpretation is since He already knows who will accept Him, He goes ahead and grants them the inheritance they have in Christ in the Kingdom. Now God's Kingdom is not of this world and it has no end. I can't see where that means He chooses who will accept Him and who won't. I haven't established a hard believe one way or the other on predestination so this thread really caught my eye. I don't want to get into a heated debate over it, but would really like for you guys to share a little more insight with me.....Thank You...

That's a good way of looking at things. I don't necessarily believe one way or the other. One thing my parents, who are reformed baptist, don't understand, is this... The fact that God knows what happens in the future does not mean He determines it (He determines some things, the rest he allows IMO). What I'm saying is that God's omniscience of the future alone does not debunk free will, but it seems that a lot of people believe this is the case. God is not bound by time the way we are, but we sometimes put God in a box and think that He is. I never see limited atonement as an issue, because either way (free will or pred.), God knows who will accept Him.
 
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sad astronaut said:
The fact that God knows what happens in the future does not mean He determines it (He determines some things, the rest he allows IMO).

sad astronaut, what is it that you believe causes a person to accept God? The reason I ask is because you say that God "knows the future" and because He "knows the future" then He knows who will accept Him and who won't and the inference I get from your post is that He bases His sovereign election on man's freely made choice. Is that your belief? If so, I ask, what is it that causes a person to accept God?

Thanks,
God bless
 
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silverpie

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I can eat 50 eggs said:
Have you ever met anyone that believes in election, but doesn't think they were elected?

 

I just thought it was kind of funny that everyone I've evet talked to that believes this firmly believes they are one of the elect. 

Right now, that is an issue I am faced with--the only conclusion I can reach from my life is that election/predestination is true, and that my predestination is hell. I desperately want to not believe it, but it seems inevitable.
 
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MissytheButterfly said:
Hey Reform, since this thread is about asking you questions I would like to know do you know of any scriptures that say something like, "God elects people or his believers" or something like "God has predestined all believers".. something like that .. I would like to at least give your point of view a fair look and see if I can learn something more from it by having an open mind.

Missy




ephesians 1:4 According as He [GOD THE FATHER vs 3] in Him [JC] before the foundation of the world,................

Romans 8:29 For whom He did fore know, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God Hath before ordained that we should walk in them

another word to look up in a strong concordance is CHOSE or CHOSEN interesting word study

How the Trinity in its persons saves us.

Father - picks the [planner]
JC -died for are sins [doer]
HS -put us into Christ......... Titus 3:5 [behind scenes..doer]
 
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Reformationist said:
sad astronaut, what is it that you believe causes a person to accept God? The reason I ask is because you say that God "knows the future" and because He "knows the future" then He knows who will accept Him and who won't and the inference I get from your post is that He bases His sovereign election on man's freely made choice. Is that your belief? If so, I ask, what is it that causes a person to accept God?

Thanks,
God bless

Matt 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? ......

mark 10:24 the disciples
Mark 10:26 .........who then can be saved?
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the begiining who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 From that time many of his disciples went back and walked no more with Him

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chose you twelve, and one of you is a devil? [Judas]

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God
1 cor 2:10 But God revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit seartheth all things, yea , the deep things of God.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God......................

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He[God] saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit



Basicly Holy Spirit conviences US to belief plus he holds back Satan from blinding us while we are being told the GOOD NEWS with out GOD WE ARE HELPLESS TO BELIEVE

GLORY TO BE TO GOD
 
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A. believer

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silverpie said:
Right now, that is an issue I am faced with--the only conclusion I can reach from my life is that election/predestination is true, and that my predestination is hell. I desperately want to not believe it, but it seems inevitable.

On what basis do you say that? Why do you believe that you're predestined to hell?
 
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Drotar

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I can eat 50 eggs said:
Funny thought just crossed my mind. I've met a number of people that believe in predestination/election.

I just realized that everyone of these people also believe that they are part of the elect.

2 questions.

1. how do you know if you are elected?

2. Have you ever met anyone that believes in election, but doesn't think they were elected?

 

I just thought it was kind of funny that everyone I've evet talked to that believes this firmly believes they are one of the elect. 

The Bible (apostle Paul) told us to do good works to make our election certain. The question you're asking is exactly what he means. Works are the fruit of faith. If there has been no change in the fruit you bear, then what is to say that the tree (your nature) itself has changed? The difference between eternal security ad perseverance of the saints is that one system of theology places an emphasis on the fruits of a transformed life. That's why I'm a POTS advocate all the way.

No, because it violently conflicts with what we all want to hear. The fact that Arminianism is the theological sysem atheists believe in really makes me wonder if it's Biblical. TTYL Jesus love syou!
 
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Luchnia

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I am always amazed at the different views that exist on predestination. Is man predestined, or is man's conformity predestined? Is the plan of God predestined and man can conform or not? Does God make man conform to His plan?

One thing to question is something that is always brought up: Dead men cannot choose. It is sort of implied that God smacks a man into believing and he cannot choose otherwise. How does the Word substantiate this opinion?

Here is a thought. If spiritually dead men cannot choose, then how did they become dead in the first place? If they are not able to choose, then that would make God liable for making them spiritually dead. Did this happen with Adam? If you believe this then please substantiate how God made Adam fall and how He is liable for Adam's fall? That would make God a part of darkness by predestining Adam to sin. If there is no darkness in God, how can he make a man sin?

It seems that spiritually dead men choose all the time. Thousands of times a day. They choose the remain spiritually dead. I have hung out with many spiritually dead men. I have also hung out with spiritually dead men that chose Christ and are now spiritually alive. They choose life, or death. A murderer can choose to continue to murder, or he can choose to stop.

Just not sure where the opion that dead men cannot choose God thing came into the picture.

Word up!
 
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SoldierofChrist

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Think of it this way. This is fairly basic.

Man sinned. Because man sinned, man deserves punishment because God is perfectly Holy. God sent Jesus Christ to those whom He chose out of His ultimate grace and mercy. He did not choose some people to go to hell... He merely left them what they very much deserve, what we all deserve... to be punished.

Here is a thought. If spiritually dead men cannot choose, then how did they become dead in the first place? If they are not able to choose, then that would make God liable for making them spiritually dead.

I don't think I would go that far. Man became dead in sin after the fall, after the decision was made to disobey God. We have free will in our daily decisions, what Calvinism teaches is that we don't have free will in deciding to come to Christ, because we are dead in our sins and cannot choose what is right without God's help.

Romans 3

10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

You can't really argue with this verse. I don't think there is any way to get around it. It plainly says no one seeks after God. But people do, right? God's children seek after Him, which means that God must hold the part of drawing the person to Himself for someone to become righteous in His sight.

Did this happen with Adam? If you believe this then please substantiate how God made Adam fall and how He is liable for Adam's fall? That would make God a part of darkness by predestining Adam to sin. If there is no darkness in God, how can he make a man sin?

Well I think Adam sinned on the part of his own free will. We have the will to sin and choose certain things. For instance, I have the will to choose where I go to College or what kind of shampoo I want to use. I also have the will to choose to gossip or run through a red light. When it comes to choosing God, however, that's something we cannot do, for none of us choose what is good on our own.

I'm a fairly new adherant to Calvinism so forgive me if that doesn't clear up everything for you! If not, perhaps my other reformed brethren may be able to help you out! =)

Word yo!
 
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Bastoune

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SoldierofChrist said:
Think of it this way. This is fairly basic.

Man sinned. Because man sinned, man deserves punishment because God is perfectly Holy. God sent Jesus Christ to those whom He chose out of His ultimate grace and mercy. He did not choose some people to go to hell... He merely left them what they very much deserve, what we all deserve... to be punished.

Scripture?!?

I don't think I would go that far. Man became dead in sin after the fall, after the decision was made to disobey God. We have free will in our daily decisions, what Calvinism teaches is that we don't have free will in deciding to come to Christ, because we are dead in our sins and cannot choose what is right without God's help.

How do you interpret Acts 7:51: "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit"


Also, why all the constant admonishments toward sinning after coming to the knowledge of truth, warnings not to fall away which are abundant, etc. and he told me that that is so the elect can persevere. But if the elect is the TRUE elect, they will persevere anyway, it's a given. Nothing you can do can change that! So why warn about falling away and that there is only judgment (Hebrews 10:26-28 for example), if there really is no danger for it since the elect will persevere?
 
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