The Absurdity of Losing Salvation

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Ave Maria

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butxifxnot said:
I was not talking about God taking it away. I said that it cannot be taken away, but you can give it up.
Hey Butxifxnot. I wasn't disagreeing with you when I said made that quote. I was merely affirming what I believe. Sorry if there was any misunderstanding there.
 
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Ave Maria

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butxifxnot said:
Read the parable of the sower. There are such things as false converts.
True. I fully agree that there are such things as false converts. However, I am not a false convert. I know that I am saved! Praise God! :clap:
 
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Faith In God

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Holly3278 said:
Hey Butxifxnot. I wasn't disagreeing with you when I said made that quote. I was merely affirming what I believe. Sorry if there was any misunderstanding there.
Oh. okay. anyway, there are such things as false conversions as well as the true conversions. the true ones are the 'elect' and the only way they are 'predestined' is that God knows the future. the false are backsliders, who never slid forward in the first place.

This is in reference to a post you made a little while back, i think.
 
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Lynn73

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slim said:
Hebrews 6:4 For when people have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become sharers in the Holy Ghost and tasted the goodness of God's Word and the powers of the world to come and then have fallen away it is impossible to renew them so that they return from their sin, as long as for themselves they keep executing the Son of God on the stake all over again and keep holding him up to public contempt. For the land that soaks up frequent rains and then brings forth a crop useful to its owners receives a blessing from God: but if it keeps producing thorns and thistles, it fails the test and is close to being cursed; in the end , it will be burned.
This Scripture is one that is used to support losing your salvation quite often. IMHO this Scripture isn't talking about truly saved people. One can be enlightened and taste the heavenly gift (key word being taste, NOT eat or partake) and not truly be saved. People can hear the gospel, be around Christians and be enlightened by that and taste what it might be like, hear about Jesus and all that without ever truly accepting Him as Savior. I'm also thinking of the Scripture about the dog returning to it's vomit but I don't know where it's at. Nowhere are Christ's followers called dogs. These are unsaved people imho. Christ's followers are referred to as sheep.
 
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Ave Maria

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butxifxnot said:
Oh. okay. anyway, there are such things as false conversions as well as the true conversions. the true ones are the 'elect' and the only way they are 'predestined' is that God knows the future. the false are backsliders, who never slid forward in the first place.

This is in reference to a post you made a little while back, i think.
Hi buxifxnot. Thanks for explaining. But are you implying that I am a false convert?
 
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Ave Maria

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Lynn73 said:
This Scripture is one that is used to support losing your salvation quite often. IMHO this Scripture isn't talking about truly saved people. One can be enlightened and taste the heavenly gift (key word being taste, NOT eat or partake) and not truly be saved. People can hear the gospel, be around Christians and be enlightened by that and taste what it might be like, hear about Jesus and all that without ever truly accepting Him as Savior. I'm also thinking of the Scripture about the dog returning to it's vomit but I don't know where it's at. Nowhere are Christ's followers called dogs. These are unsaved people imho. Christ's followers are referred to as sheep.
I agree with your interpretation. I don't know if that is the true interpretation or not but it sounds logical to me. However, there is another interpretation of those verses that I have heard that makes logical sense. I am going to quote the Bible verse so anyone looking at this post can understand it easier.

[bible]Hebrews 6:4-6[/bible]

Basically this verse that it is impossible to renew someone who was once enlightened, had tasted of the heavenly gift, and who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and who have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, to renew such a person to repentence. I don't think this verse is saying that it is utterly impossible but that it might be impossible for humans to renew such a one to repentence. Basically, only God's divine discipline or whatever can bring them back to God.

I'm sorry, it is hard to explain this position. A pastor at a Fundamentalist Baptist church once told me this explanation as I was struggling with this verse.

Anyway, here is waht my Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary says about Verses 1-8:

Matthew Henry Concise Commentary said:
Verses 1-8 Every part of the truth and will of God should be set before all who profess the gospel, and be urged on their hearts and consciences. We should not be always speaking about outward things; these have their places and use, but often take up too much attention and time, which might be better employed. The humbled sinner who pleads guilty, and cries for mercy, can have no ground from this passage to be discouraged, whatever his conscience may accuse him of. Nor does it prove that any one who is made a new creature in Christ, ever becomes a final apostate from him. The apostle is not speaking of the falling away of mere professors, never convinced or influenced by the gospel. Such have nothing to fall away from, but an empty name, or hypocritical profession. Neither is he speaking of partial declinings or backslidings. Nor are such sins meant, as Christians fall into through the strength of temptations, or the power of some worldly or fleshly lust. But the falling away here mentioned, is an open and avowed renouncing of Christ, from enmity of heart against him, his cause, and people, by men approving in their minds the deeds of his murderers, and all this after they have received the knowledge of the truth, and tasted some of its comforts. Of these it is said, that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance. Not because the blood of Christ is not sufficient to obtain pardon for this sin; but this sin, in its very nature, is opposite to repentance and every thing that leads to it. If those who through mistaken views of this passage, as well as of their own case, fear that there is no mercy for them, would attend to the account given of the nature of this sin, that it is a total and a willing renouncing of Christ, and his cause, and joining with his enemies, it would relieve them from wrong fears. We should ourselves beware, and caution others, of every approach near to a gulf so awful as apostacy; yet in doing this we should keep close to the word of God, and be careful not to wound and terrify the weak, or discourage the fallen and penitent. Believers not only taste of the word of God, but they drink it in. And this fruitful field or garden receives the blessing. But the merely nominal Christian, continuing unfruitful under the means of grace, or producing nothing but deceit and selfishness, was near the awful state above described; and everlasting misery was the end reserved for him. Let us watch with humble caution and prayer as to ourselves.

Also, I believe the verse you referred to at the end of your post is this:


[bible]2 Peter 2:20-22[/bible]
 
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Faith In God

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Holly3278 said:
Hi buxifxnot. Thanks for explaining. But are you implying that I am a false convert?
? no...I did not mean it that way, but if you feel it does, then I'm sorry

Quote:
Originally Posted by: Rebirth In Flames

If a man claims to be saved, then leads a life as if he were not saved; then he was not saved to begin with. It’s as simple as that.

[you]
No offense but how do you know?! Who are you to judge?? You have heard of backsliding I suppose? I was saved at around the age of 13 and have backslid almost constantly since then but I KNOW I am saved!
[end]
a backslide means you weren't saved at that time, but was a false convert. now? I wouldn't know.
 
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Lynn73

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Thanks for sharing those other interpretations, Holly, and for finding that verse I was talking about. That one about God bringing someone back, even if humans can't, was interesting.

I forgot that there's a Bible search tool I found here at CF, I should've used it. But you see what I mean?

2 Peter 2:20-2220 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Does this sound like a true believer who is turning from Christ? Not to me. It sounds like someone who is maybe seeking something and through being around Jesus or learning about Him, receives knowledge about Him and temporarily escapes the things of the world while he's learning and being around true believers but then this person turns back to the world. It says, it would be better if they'd never known the way, than to know it and turn from it. But the real clue is the dog turning back to his own vomit and the pig to the miry mud. There's been no change, the dog is still a dog and the pig is still a pig. They have no new nature. Some passages that make it seem one can lose their salvation, upon a closer look, just might not be saying that at all. And there are also passsages that imply we cannot lost it. Both can't be right.
 
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Thunderchild

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after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
Of course these are not true believers - they only escape from the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord. How could anyone possibly think that such an escape is only available to the true believer?
 
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Thunderchild

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When you buy a ticket to (say) a movie, or to take a journey on a plane - you are pre-destined to see that movie, or pre-destined to be in the place at journey's end. Of course, if you don't turn up to the movie or you disembark the plane en-route, that pre-destination comes to nothing. Pre-destination is by no means a foregone conclusion.

Changing the meaning or correct concept of a word to make it suit a doctrine doesn't validate the doctrine.
 
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nb_christseeker

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We broke the law. Breaking the law ever results in a curse. Jesus took the curse of the breaking of the law upon himself. He was condemned and hung on a tree and died, to pay for that curse. Thus, the curse of the law is gone. All our sins went into him and all the curse fell upon him. His sinless life deserved a blessing, but he received the payment of a curse.

Those who completely obey the law receive a blessing. No mere human completely obeys the law. Jesus completely obeyed the law. He deserved a blessing, but that blessing then falls on those who believe in him. That blessing is the Holy Spirit, God himself, living in us and sealing us and leading us. "It is finished" is a cry of victory. Its a cry that the system of law and sin and death is over and done with.

Jesus said that his blood "sealed" the new covenant of the remission of sins. Who has eaten the body and drank the blood of The Christ, The High Priest of God? You are sealed into the new covenant of God's mercy. He took the curse of the law on himself, and gave the blessing to us, because we have faith that he did just that and rose from the dead to prove it. I quote Mark 3:28-30 over and over cuz people don't seem to get it. The curse of the law was cancelled, taken out on Jesus. The wrath, the FULL wrath of God was poured out on Jesus. That's why he came.

The entire argument of "losing salvation" revolves around this "me me me" "my salvation" attitude. The selfishness involved in arguing for the loss of salvation shows a lack of faith in the "finished" work of the cross. The pain Christ endured is immense, and more than makes up for our sin.

Christ's death is the FOUNDATION. But in 1Corinthians 3, Paul talks about adding on top of that foundation hay, straw, or wood; or gold, silver, and precious stones. We need to separate these two issues.

Your sins after you HAVE the foundation, are like the wood hay and straw. Jesus clearly said we would be judged for our works, with the hay etc burning up. If you do anything good, ie anything Jesus told us to do, that's like laying gold etc on TOP of the foundation of our salvation.

Our filthy rags works don't earn us salvation; faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ and belief that he is the Messiah, truly God and truly man, truly risen from the dead, belief in the Amazing Grace and Mercy of the Lord God, that's the foundation.

Once we receive the Holy Spirit though, we can finally, through the grace of God and by His leading, do works that are more akin to gold, silver, and precious stones, that simply ADD TO but NOT REPLACE the foundation of salvation.

If you reject the foundation though, ie reject the whole "Jesus rose from the dead" thing as well as other foundational doctrines, then perhaps you lose your foundation. But no christian in their right mind, after tasting how good God is, would reject Christ. Those who have, the latter condition is probably far worse than the former condition. They have no hope, unless by some miracle they renew their faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is leading us to be merciful as God is merciful... if you really don't think God is merciful, then chances are you won't be merciful. We love because God loved us first. That's how we know what love even is. Jesus is love.

Trust in God. Trust in God. Trust in God. Trust in God. Trust in God.

might I add, Trust in God.

there's the foundation, and then the hay or gold you add on top of it. don't get them confused.
 
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PianoGuy

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Hey everyone, this doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved has always been a pet peeve of mine because it leads to antinomianism and undermines living Holy unto the Lord. It's awful to see so many people being led astray by such an abominable doctrine. Now all of you OSAS people - don't get upset. I didn't say you were abominable - I said what you believe is abominable. This forum topic is called "The absurdity of losing salvation". Catchy phrase - but I think we should rename it to "The reality of losing salvation".

PianoGuy
 
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AVBunyan

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PianoGuy said:
I said what you believe is abominable. This forum topic is called "The absurdity of losing salvation". Catchy phrase - but I think we should rename it to "The reality of losing salvation".

PianoGuy
The teaching that takes away from the work of Calvary seems to me to be abominable - to say that one can add to the work at Calvary to me is abominable. To say that what Christ did at Calvary was not sufficient is abominable.

The gospel is found in I cor. 15:1-5 - either Christ died for your sins or He didn't - which is it?

If one says he can possibly lose salvation then I would say he maybe has yet to have obtained it. Maybe God has yet to reveal the true gospel (I Cor. 15:15) to him. Maybe this person is blind to the gospel of God's grace.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Some of you folks need to really reason though this for your salvations' sakes. by saying you can lose your salvation then YOU are counting on YOU either doing or not doing something to keep keep your salvation. If this is the case then those of you who think you can lose it are in actuality trusting you and not Christ. It cannot be both - one or the other - your or Christ - which is it?


Christ died for my sins - that settles it for me - my sins are gone. Are yours?

It appears some of you may not have this issue of justifcation settled yet. You might want to get it settled - are you counting on Christ or you - again, can't be both.


God bless :wave:
 
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PianoGuy

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AVBunyan said:
Some of you folks need to really reason though this for your salvations' sakes. by saying you can lose your salvation then YOU are counting on YOU either doing or not doing something to keep keep your salvation. If this is the case then those of you who think you can lose it are in actuality trusting you and not Christ. It cannot be both - one or the other - your or Christ - which is it?


Christ died for my sins - that settles it for me - my sins are gone. Are yours?

It appears some of you may not have this issue of justifcation settled yet. You might want to get it settled - are you counting on Christ or you - again, can't be both.


God bless :wave:

Well, I certainly don't believe that our good works can get us to heaven - our righteousness is as filthy rags. AVBunyan, you implied that I was "adding to the work on the cross". That's a negative - Christ's work was an atonement for all the sins of mankind and is the only propitiation for our sins accepted by the Father. But, if you believe that in order to become a Christian one must repent and believe in the Lord Jesus and His work on the cross for us, you have admitted that there are conditions to salvation. Is that "adding to the work on the cross"? Hardly. These are requirements for salvation. The logic of this argument (that we can do nothing to affect our salvation) falls apart on itself! You had to do something in order to get saved, you had a way in - it is called faith! Logic should tell us that if there is a way in, there is a way out! We have to have faith to please God, there is no salvation without faith. God does not believe for us - we must believe for ourselves.

It makes sense to say that the same conditions that are required as essential to receive salvation must be present in order to maintain salvation. Is this works? If you consider a continuous reliance on the grace and mercy of God received through the atonement of Christ a work, go ahead, but I call it faith. I make no claim to merit, and my faith makes no pretense to merit. The other side of the issue is, if I cast off my faith in favor of disbelief (sin), I forfeit the present benefits of a relationship with Christ, cleansing from all sin. (1 Jn. 1:7) We are saved by faith through grace. We are required to have faith in order to have salvation. If we cease to have faith, the only conclusion is that the condition of salvation is no longer present, salvation is abandoned by us.
Logic says that if there is a way into salvation, there must be a way out! If we are free to "believe" and put our "trust" in Christ for salvation, we must conclude that we are just as free to reject Christ and His salvation. We cannot have free-will before belief, and not have free-will after belief. Such a concept is not to be found in Scripture. "For if the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

I hope this helps all of you guys understand that we can lose salvation - but that we never will lose it as long as we maintain our faith in God and believe in what he has done on the cross for mankind.

PianoGuy
 
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happyinhisgrace

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I am not 100% set on the "can lose or can't lose our salvation", thing, only about 99%. I do tend to lean towards "once saved, always saved". The more I study my Bible, the more I see this teaching in scripture. "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder". God has joined me to Jesus and nothing can distroy that union as far as I am concerned. I am absolutly convinced, for myself personally, that if I were to die this minute, I would be at the feet of Jesus the next. I believe in my eternal security with God. :clap:
 
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PianoGuy

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An additional note, Hebrews 3:14 says "For we are made partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." (KJV). Now what could "confidence" be referring to . . . . . . . . . FAITH obviously! The very definition of faith must include confidence or it will no longer be faith! Therefore, we are made partakers of Christ IF we hold our faith and trust in God steady until the end. Also in Hebrews 3:6 the Bible says "But Christ as a son over his house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the CONFIDENCE and the rejoicing of the hope firm until the end. Once again, the author has given the requirement (confidence and trust in God) to remain "in Christ". This confidence is our faith.
 
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happyinhisgrace

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PianoGuy said:
An additional note, Hebrews 3:14 says "For we are made partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." (KJV). Now what could "confidence" be referring to . . . . . . . . . FAITH obviously! The very definition of faith must include confidence or it will no longer be faith! Therefore, we are made partakers of Christ IF we hold our faith and trust in God steady until the end. Also in Hebrews 3:6 the Bible says "But Christ as a son over his house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the CONFIDENCE and the rejoicing of the hope firm until the end. Once again, the author has given the requirement (confidence and trust in God) to remain "in Christ". This confidence is our faith.
This brings to my mind, the question, "if someone is truly born again of the Holy Spirit and indwelled with that Holy Spirit, could they ever really turn from the very God that lives within them through the Holy Spirit"? I don't know how I will view it months from now or even years from now but as it is right now, I tend to think that if someone is born again and then at some point completely loses their faith in God, they were not really born again to start with. How could one deny the very Spirit of God Almightly that lives within them as believers?
 
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PianoGuy

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happyinhisgrace said:
"What God has joined together, let no man put asunder". God has joined me to Jesus and nothing can distroy that union as far as I am concerned.:clap:
Well, the Bible did say in Matthew 19:6 and in Mark 10:9, "What God has joined together, let not man put asunder." (KJV) - but Jesus was referring to marriage, not salvation. But even if he were referring to salvation, the words "let not man put asunder" does not say that man cannot put the union asunder. People divorce all the time - they are capable of this "putting asunder" of their relationship. So if he were talking about salvation, the ability to put your relationship with God "asunder" is still there. His words do not say it is impossible - he simply says not to do it! Hope this helps,

PianoGuy
 
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PianoGuy

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happyinhisgrace said:
This brings to my mind, the question, "if someone is truly born again of the Holy Spirit and indwelled with that Holy Spirit, could they ever really turn from the very God that lives within them through the Holy Spirit"? I don't know how I will view it months from now or even years from now but as it is right now, I tend to think that if someone is born again and then at some point completely loses their faith in God, they were not really born again to start with. How could one deny the very Spirit of God Almightly that lives within them as believers?
Where in the Bible does it say that if a Christian has the Spirit of God, that he will never turn from it? You can guess all you want, but the Bible never says that a Christian cannot deny the Spirit that lives within him.

PianoGuy
 
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