Oregon Diocese 1st to file bankruptcy, wont be the last

JPPT1974 · Jul 7, 2004

Well, the RC needs to keep their business to themselves.
But Don't make Bush the Scapegoat at all.
Just because Edwards has now in the race doesn't change the race except bring excitement to it.

2001MustangGT · Jul 7, 2004

burrow_owl said:
I don't think the compensation is excessive at all, given that the RCC was more than happy to absorb losses from smaller settlements, all the while continuing to shuffle abusive priests into different posts.

If it takes legal awards so big that it puts a few dioceses into chapter 11 for the Church to alter its behavior, so be it.
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Its funny, but I think I agree with this too in a way.
Darn I cant rep you again so soon! LOL

Scally Cap · Jul 7, 2004

Here, I just found this on the Religious Tolerance website--it summarizes several data sources. I must have been remembering (somwhat inaccurately) the Time article.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm

Existential1 · Jul 7, 2004

2001MustangGT said:
You consider yourself responsible for this as well? The whole of human society is not responsible for this scandal anymore than you are responsible for 15th century slavery. The responsiblity is on those Church leaders and the institution that they control.

That part of the human society, which continues to run the resources of being which which acted in the RC Church to mediate these abuses: remain co-responsible. These resources can be specifically RC; or they can be more general resources.
Likewise. If continue to partake of being, which originally was active in the bringing about of 15C slavery: then I remain implicated in that slavery.
The responsibility for what GWB and TB do in Iraq, is also mine; for these same reasons.

2001MustangGT said:
Some of this kinda lost me. Your big words I understand, but the sentences are kinda complex. It seems here that you are supporting institutional change, but earlier you were against it. Can you clear this up for me a bit?

I am not at home with institutional change which is driven from an alternate institutional ground. I'm more at home with the idea of reformation and redemption: which entails re-entry to the grounds of an institution; and a renegotiation of perspective drawn from that ground.
I am a God and Christ person: and for me, even if religious or spiritual perspective is not involved; things are changed fundamentally, through a re-entry to God, and the emergence of a fresh faith or dispensation from this.
So institutional change yes; but through God: where I would read you as asking for the same thing, in your own terms.

2001MustangGT said:
What that the thing you just expressed, or is there something else?

Beyond what I had expressed at that point.
It's this personal responsibility matter: where, if a dispensation I partake of has led to something; then as a dispensation user, its down to me too.
For the thing to be sorted out, the dispensation has to be refreshed or renegotiated.
Again I could go back to the German example. Yes, a particular German may not have done this or that: but many Germans, even those who actively opposed Hitler, recognised that they had to take a collective responsibility, and for everyhting; and they set out to remove from their way of life, anyhting that had led directly to Hitler's ascendancy.

Existential1 · Jul 7, 2004

burrow_owl said:
I don't think the compensation is excessive at all, given that the RCC was more than happy to absorb losses from smaller settlements, all the while continuing to shuffle abusive priests into different posts.

If it takes legal awards so big that it puts a few dioceses into chapter 11 for the Church to alter its behavior, so be it.
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SH fannied around, and brought the world down on his country.
The Iraqi people had failed to, on their own, remove the leadership that had led them into this.
The RC congregation had failed to remove the leadership which has led them to this abuse consequence circumstance.
I am concerned, where the mechanisms of change come down hard, on either the Iraqi people, or the RC congregation.
That the fabric of either peoples life be torn, because of faults which lie with leadership, makes me feel that our instruments of reparation are too crude.

A USA Today/Gallup poll taken during 2002-MAR found that:

72% of Roman Catholics say the church leadership has done a bad job dealing with sexual abuse by priests,

74% say that the church is more concerned with protecting its own image than with solving the problem. 13

burrow_owl · Jul 7, 2004

I am concerned, where the mechanisms of change come down hard, on either the Iraqi people, or the RC congregation.

As we all are, I think, but the alternative is worse. It's not a pleasant decision to go after the Church writ large, but it was one that had to be made.

Polycarp1 · Jul 7, 2004

Scally Cap said:
Crud, and me without my notes. I clearly remember reading an article about this in some major news magazine, most likely Newsweek (?), that quoted several priests or former priests who estimated the rate of homosexuality among seminary students to run at about 40%. Of course, I don't have the reference handy, although I suppose I could Google it.

Good responses by those who elaborated on my first musings about celibacy rules and inappropriate sexual activity. I understand that it is a very complex issue and hope I didn't give the impression that I was arbitrarily simplifying it.

On another, largely non-Christian board which I belong to, there were reflections by a number of ex-seminarians regarding that supposed 40% figure. From anecdotal evidence, the conclusion was reached (by a consensus of those men) that the "culture" at some seminaries was conducive to turn-a-blind-eye homosexual activity, and for obvious reasons attracted gay would-be seminarians. At other seminaries, there was no evidence or even rumors of such activities.

This is of course not conclusive of anything, but it would suggest that statistical results relative to the question are easily skewed by what sample is used and where from.

Lillithspeak · Jul 7, 2004

I find it interesting that others claim that the Church is not responsible for this behavior and should continue to exist because of it's "good works" and because of those who don't abuse others. Well, guess what, this particular church has endorsed, condoned, participated in and sponsored many horrendous acts throughout history. Just when does this church become responsible for the acts of it's members? We hold the KKK responsible for their acts of viciousness, we hold skinhead-white surpremacists responsible for the acts of their members but when it comes to "the church" suddenly, it isn't responsible for it's members. These are "isolated" acts of bad people.

Well, I say bull. They have an organization that has promoted many heinous acts and they darn well should be taken apart, brick by brick, golden statue by golden statue, priceless painting by priceless painting, until they have used up all of their resources to pay these victims every possible dime there is for what was done to them. You cannot give back a childhood, you cannot give back a sense of self that was totally smashed apart by rape, you can only give up your monetary wealth and serve a life term in prison, but how many are doing that?

I have not one iota of respect left for the catholic church and seriously don't understand those who still attend. They should be reduced down one small building in which to hold services for less than 100 people per parish, and be prohibited from owning anything other than that, certainly no schools, which might give them more time to spend on re-examining their spiritual growth rather than growing their fat bank accounts to ever more bloated status.

Ampmonster · Jul 8, 2004

2001MustangGT · Jul 8, 2004

Ampmonster said:
...

can you elaborate on that?

Existential1 · Jul 8, 2004

2001MustangGT said:
can you elaborate on that?

. . .

Minimalist trinity.

Polycarp1 · Jul 8, 2004

ufonium2 · Jul 11, 2004

I'd also like to see stats comparing per capita child molestation rates amongst clergy of all religions and denominations in the US, preferably done before the media decided to latch on to the RCC and its pedophelia situation.

We all know the US media has a habit of latching on to something, often for no apparent reason, and running it into the ground. For instance, Laci Peterson. That was a horrible crime, but by no means a rare one. She probably wasn't even the only pregnant woman in the US murdered that day, but to watch the news you would think it was the only time in history that something like that happened. Same with these missing persons cases that inexplicably dominate the news sometimes. Hundreds, probably thousands, of people go missing in this country every day, but the media picks two a year to cover and has the whole country talking about them.

I feel that this is what happened with the RCC. If the first pedophile clergy news story that broke had been about a pedophile Baptist minister, the media would've latched on to that and dug up all the dirt it could find on Baptist ministers for the last 50 years. Then, by the safety in numbers theory, more sexually abused Baptist kids would come out of the woodwork, generating even more media coverage which leads to more allegations, and so on. It's media gold: a self-perpetuating news story.

Given the way the media works in the US, I find it entirely plausible that the actual rate of pedophelia among Catholic clergy is no higher than any other religion or denomination. Unfortunately, the only thing we have to go on is the frequency of reported sexual abuse, which I believe has been distorted by the media to the point of irrelevance. So, the only data that has a chance of being unbiased would have to have been generated before this whole thing broke, probably ten years ago at least.

the_cheat · Jul 11, 2004

Lillithspeak said:
They should be reduced down one small building in which to hold services for less than 100 people per parish, and be prohibited from owning anything other than that, certainly no schools, which might give them more time to spend on re-examining their spiritual growth rather than growing their fat bank accounts to ever more bloated status.

May I ask how such a thing could be accomplished legally?

And out of mere curiosity, who would take over the education of the students currently in Catholic schools? The public school systems of this country are overwhelmed as it is.

notto · Jul 11, 2004

ufonium2 said:
I'd also like to see stats comparing per capita child molestation rates amongst clergy of all religions and denominations in the US, preferably done before the media decided to latch on to the RCC and its pedophelia situation.

We all know the US media has a habit of latching on to something, often for no apparent reason, and running it into the ground. For instance, Laci Peterson. That was a horrible crime, but by no means a rare one. She probably wasn't even the only pregnant woman in the US murdered that day, but to watch the news you would think it was the only time in history that something like that happened. Same with these missing persons cases that inexplicably dominate the news sometimes. Hundreds, probably thousands, of people go missing in this country every day, but the media picks two a year to cover and has the whole country talking about them.

I feel that this is what happened with the RCC. If the first pedophile clergy news story that broke had been about a pedophile Baptist minister, the media would've latched on to that and dug up all the dirt it could find on Baptist ministers for the last 50 years. Then, by the safety in numbers theory, more sexually abused Baptist kids would come out of the woodwork, generating even more media coverage which leads to more allegations, and so on. It's media gold: a self-perpetuating news story.

Given the way the media works in the US, I find it entirely plausible that the actual rate of pedophelia among Catholic clergy is no higher than any other religion or denomination. Unfortunately, the only thing we have to go on is the frequency of reported sexual abuse, which I believe has been distorted by the media to the point of irrelevance. So, the only data that has a chance of being unbiased would have to have been generated before this whole thing broke, probably ten years ago at least.

I think that most churches, when presented with a pedophile leader, would expell them from their ranks.

The issue here is not only that the abuse happened, it is that it was covered up and allowed to florish within the structure of the church. It was swept under the rug and those who were abusers were allowed to stay in positions that allowed them to abuse again.

Lillithspeak · Jul 11, 2004

the_cheat said:
May I ask how such a thing could be accomplished legally?

And out of mere curiosity, who would take over the education of the students currently in Catholic schools? The public school systems of this country are overwhelmed as it is.

I think a talented attorney could come up with a scenario or two to accomplish the necessary legal maneuvers. Take their confiscated funds and increase the public schools.

I've long advocated eliminating the tax exempt status of churches, especially the very wealthy ones who have gold mines, millions in art treasures, colleges, amusement parks, crystal cathedrals and all manner of other real property. Why should they build a monumentally rich empire and pay no taxes? :scratch:

the_cheat · Jul 11, 2004

Lillithspeak said:
I think a talented attorney could come up with a scenario or two to accomplish the necessary legal maneuvers. Take their confiscated funds and increase the public schools.

I seriously doubt it. Even if one could seize the Church's assests, I can't imagine how it would be legally possible to restrict the size of the buildings they use, locations, and congregation numbers, without violating the Bill of Rights. And even all the funds of the Catholic Church wouldn't solve our school system's problems - the problem with the US public school sytem is not, despite the rhetoric that suggests that throwing money at the issue will make it magically resolve, a lack of funds. It's apathy, mismanagement, underqualified personnel, lack of accountability and societal devaluation of education. Without the Catholic school system, I don't know what some communities would do.

And I'm a public school teacher, by the way.

2001MustangGT · Jul 11, 2004

the_cheat said:
I seriously doubt it. Even if one could seize the Church's assests, I can't imagine how it would be legally possible to restrict the size of the buildings they use, locations, and congregation numbers, without violating the Bill of Rights. And even all the funds of the Catholic Church wouldn't solve our school system's problems - the problem with the US public school sytem is not, despite the rhetoric that suggests that throwing money at the issue will make it magically resolve, a lack of funds. It's apathy, mismanagement, underqualified personnel, lack of accountability and societal devaluation of education. Without the Catholic school system, I don't know what some communities would do.

And I'm a public school teacher, by the way.

Excellent post!

I will readily admit that the American society is very dependent on private religious and non-religious schools. Catholic schools are definitely included in that list.

Private schools do generally offer slightly superior education than public schools, from what Ive heard. (My roommate is also a public school teacher!

)

Trying to restrict religious organizations is illegal. The whole point of this OP is that change needs to come from within the Church. Not that we need government to rip it apart, cause we dont. The Church is doing a fine enough job damaging itself already. What the church needs is serious reform.

the_cheat · Jul 11, 2004

2001MustangGT said:
Excellent post!

I will readily admit that the American society is very dependent on private religious and non-religious schools. Catholic schools are definitely included in that list.

Private schools do generally offer slightly superior education than public schools, from what Ive heard. (My roommate is also a public school teacher! )

Trying to restrict religious organizations is illegal. The whole point of this OP is that change needs to come from within the Church. Not that we need government to rip it apart, cause we dont. The Church is doing a fine enough job damaging itself already. What the church needs is serious reform.

Thank you for the support, and please do buy your roomie a beer for me. The endless debate between public schools and private schools is not one, I expect, which will be resolved anytime soon; and there are any number of districts where the public schools do as well as or outperform the private. It is a travesty that this is not the case across the country, but until it is, we must continue to rely in part on the initiatives of private educators. Credit where credit is due; the Catholic church is to be commended, in my opinion, for providing decent primary education to kids who might otherwise not receive any passable academic instruction - in the US, certainly, but in other countries as well and to a greater degree. The focuses and quality of the Catholic education may be debatable, but the fact that Catholic schools have been, for many children across the globe, the only literacy training available, is, to my mind, not up for debate.

I entirely agree that the Catholic Church does need reforms, and that the only way both legally and logically for those reforms to occur is from within.

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