Should we pray for the lost?

frumanchu · Jul 7, 2003

Romanbear said:
Why do you assume that you know what Arminians believe.

Because I was one and because I've spent quite a bit of time discussing these matters. I've spent the last two years alone almost exclusively debating these issues in other forums. I don't know the individual thoughts of each Arminian, but I know what Arminianism and most of its variants teach. I do not make these statements out of blind ignorance.

We believe in choice. That man has the opportunity to either accept Christ or reject Him. The cutoff place is death, or being turned over to a reprobate mind.

As do we. The problem is that you believe in a choice that does not exist...a choice predicated on God's willing that each and every individual person be saved. The choice you promote is not merely accepting or rejecting Christ, but rather the ability to choose whether or not to cooperate with God's sovereign will. Faith is the instrumental cause of our justification. The efficient cause lies with the Creator.

As far as those who never had a chance. I don't know and I don't believe anyone else does either. There are a lot of questions that I have as well that are not answered in the Word.To theorize about them to try to make sense of them is ludicrous because men are only men and are wrong most of the time when they do this. Example; In Christ day the priest the scribes and the Pharisees were all wrong about the coming of the Messiah. To try to answer some of our questions gets very frustrating indeed,but be patient someday you'll have all the answers. It seems to me that most of the Calvinist I've spoken with, all seem to be in a hurry to know all there is to know. There are things yet still in the Bible that haven't been revealed and won't be until God is ready for them to be.

The problem with that argument is that you've reduced your own position as well to a matter of opinion. Either you believe Scripture is completely silent on the matter, or you're attempting to remove Scripture as a means of deriving the truth.

Who on God's earth ever said that doctrine had to be logical to be fact. Did God's word say any where that everything we want to know is in the scriptures? It doesn't say this does it?.

No, everything we may want to know is not contained therein. But everything we NEED to know is.

This seems to be a regular activity that Calvinist participate in. Where you have your own definitions for words that aren't logical to you. You take all and any and add to them to make the word seem logical. Calvinist do the same to John 3:16 when Christ was clearly speaking to Nicodemus. By saying that whosoever is only referring to the elect is absurd. From Nicodemus's response I don't think he understood what Christ was speaking about. Even though there is an apocryphal book known as the book of Nicodemus. No one knows if the man was ever really saved.

My own definitions for words? Much as the KJVOnly crowd would like to deny, translations are NOT divinely inspired and are subject to error and misinterpretation. I submit to you that if you translated the Greek pas the exact same way in every single instance in Scripture, you will have a jumbled mass of contradictions and non-sensicle statements. The simplest example is 1 Timothy 6:10. The same word translated as 'all' in 2 Peter 3:9 is translated 'all kinds of' in 1 Tim 6:10 (unless you're using your 'perfect' 1610 KJ Authorized in which case it is indeed 'all). Since all means all, I would like you to explain to me how money was at the root of Lucifer's rebellion, Adam and Eve's sin, Abel's murder, and all other sins.

The 'whosoever' in John 3:16 refers indirectly to the elect, not directly. The statement is a conditional one: IF you believe, THEN you will be saved. Regardless of your position on election and it's nature, the fact remains that in the end those who ARE saved ARE the elect and the unsaved ARE NOT the elect, whether it was according to foreknowledge or by God's sovereign decree. So the 'whosoever' does refer indirectly to the elect in that the elect are those who meet the condition of believing unto salvation.

Your argument stems from lazy scholarship, plain and simple. You apply scholarship only when it suits your point, then discard it when convenient.

How about .
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I already know what your response will be but my question will throw you. If we have no choice why does Christ stand at the door and Knock?And why are we given the choice to open the door a clear decision is required. I'll bet you were already to tell me how we are dead and can't hear unless regenerated.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Re Rom 10:13, see John 3:16 above.

Already know my response? Why do you assume you know what Calvinists believe ?!?

For starters, as is often pointed out but apparently falls on deaf ears, the context of this verse does not jibe with your application. Further, as explained above and countless other times, it is still a conditional statement and speaks nothing to man's ability or inability to meet the condition, regardless of context. At least you're consistent in your logic, faulty as it is. Indeed, if we have no choice according to you, why do we need to believe at all? Why do we have to make the choice at all if we're 'forced' into it? Your error is in man's will and desires in his unregenerate state.

You sound like a Greek scholar do you have a PHD in Greek? Or at least a 2000 year old greek dictionary. Why should I want to reinterpret the Bible. The Bible doesn't need our interpretation. and the more you interpret it the father away from the truth you become.

Again, lazy scholarship. I by no means am a Greek scholar, but thanks to the miracles of modern technology I have easy access to the same tools used by men for centuries in Biblical studies. The Bible does absolutely need our interpretation in order to apply it to our lives. That is not to say that truth is subject to interpretation, but that it is revealed to us through PROPER interpretation. If you read everything at 'face value' you would be quite far from where you need to be. History has shown this time and again in heresies derived from loose interpretations of one or two verses and undue focus on them.

As I said in my previous post I have been labeled an Arminian by Calvinist. When this first happened to me I didn't know what he was talking about. When I found out I was a little irritated. I know who Jacobus Arminius was. I know that he studied at Calvin's college and while there turned half of that college of Calvinist into Arminians. A very remarkable man, but I follow no man. I follow Christ. I follow no doctrine as laid out by men but follow the doctrine of Christ.

Labels are just that, labels. Your theology is Arminian in character whether you're an Arminian by profession or not. If you want to label me 'white' or 'caucasian' but I insist I'm just a man, it doesn't change the fact that I'm a white man. I'm not using the term Arminian in a derogatory manner, merely as an expedient means of categorizing your theology. Where it digresses from historic Arminianism I will give due credit and attention. What remains is that a rose by any other name smells the same

There were no Calvinist before Augustine and I've never met a Jew who believed in Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, Limited Atonement,Total depravity of man, and Perseverance of the saints. none of these things are listed in the Bible but are only in the Calvinist logical mind.

I see. I'll remember next time someone bring up the trinity that the term itself does not appear in Scripture and therefore God is only triune in the mind of man and not in actuality. Of course, the doctrine of the Trinity is logically derived from Scripture and therefore evil.

At the end of your post it says Sola Scriptura. This isn't appropriate for Calvinist it should read ("Sola Scriptura and Logical conclusion").

You're neither the first nor the last to make such assertions, and you're every bit as wrong as they. Nevertheless, to accuse me of reasoning out the things of God and constructing logically sound cases for the truths of Scripture is by no means insulting and I think is rather both a testament to the consistency of Reformed Apologetics and the depths to which men, even believers, can be deceived and blinded by their pride.

nobdysfool · Jul 7, 2003

Romanbear said: Who on God's earth ever said that doctrine had to be logical to be fact. Did God's word say any where that everything we want to know is in the scriptures? It doesn't say this does it?. This seems to be a regular activity that Calvinist participate in. Where you have your own definitions for words that aren't logical to you. You take all and any and add to them to make the word seem logical.

If I may, I'd like to address what you said. Let me ask you a question. What is logic? Is it a system of thought that stands diametrically opposed to God, or is it just a systematic way of being able to think clearly and precisely, building upon truth to discern more truth? I would propose that it is the latter. Logic is what allows us to understand God's universe, and God's Word. God gave us a mind capable of reasoning. Why would He then expect us to "turn off your mind, relax and float downstream" where spiritual things are concerned? Is there something inherently illogical about spiritual things that prevent us from understanding them logically? If so, please show me in the Word where that is taught. Is the Book of Proverbs the Word of God? It is crammed with logical statements and truths. Wisdom is logical.

The fact is, God's ways, His Laws, and His precepts are imbued and infused with a logic so perfect, so completely consistent and so deep that it boggles the mind. God's logic is spiritually discerned, by that I mean that the Holy Spirit is the One who will open it up to you. Truth is logical at its very heart and core. It has to be. Otherwise, it couldn't be true. We're not talking about Spock here, we're talking about being able to understand that if A is true, and B follows from A, and C follows from B, then B should also be true, and C should also be true. But if B is not true, then C cannot be true, and A should be re-examined, to see why B, which followed from A, is not true, since a false conclusion cannot be logically inferred from a true premise, unless the premise is also flawed, or misunderstood.

I have an inherent mistrust of any doctrine which I am told to "just accept, don't think about it". Any doctrine which cannot stand the scrutiny of logic is suspect from the start. God gave me a mind, and He expects me to use it, with His help and enlightenment.

Reformationist · Jul 7, 2003

Romanbear said:
Hi Reformationist;

Hello yourself! :wave:

I'm not saying you aren't Christian but, are you sure?. You see your description of how people become Calvinist fits so perfectly with the parable of Christ that concerns the seed that fell by the way side. You sprang up fast and then wilted away because you had no root. Meaning you lost intrest and went after something more intresting to you. If you had root then you wouldn't have left the first doctrine which you admit was Arminianism.

Huh??!! That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The fact that I left a church that teaches a false theology doesn't mean that I fell away from faith in Christ. On the contrary, the reason I didn't stay in that environment is because they, like you, attribute too much to man and very little to God. I didn't go after something "more interesting" to me. I was personally seeking to understand the Gospel that is centered on Christ. If the church I was attending was preaching an anthropocentric Gospel then to stay would be folly.

I realize that it's nonsense to you to read this in the Bible and then formaulate in your mind that your sin can be put back on you for being unforgiving after becomming Christian. but if you believe the Bible as you say you do then you'll have to admit that this is true.

LOL! I believe the Bible, every word of it. What I don't believe is that your interpretation of the Gospel is accurate.

As Far as moving around in the Bible. It's necessary when questions take you there.

I agree but there should be some continuity to your thought process and I don't happen to see any of that in your theology.

As far a continuity. Where is your's? This is what it sounds like to me. You first start out in Arminianism then switch in midstream to Calvinism because it's more appealing to you.

The Truth is appealing...

I don't know,but there isn't much continuity in this. Then you try to say that I don't show much continuity but, I'm still believing the same doctrine I started with. Sort of sounds like a guilty conscience where the guilty trys to place suspicion on someone else to hide there own wrong doings.

LOL! Oh I'm guilty alright. However, by the grace of God I have come to see the Truth of the Gospel, at least as much as my finite mind and limited study of the Gospel has allowed. You keep acting like the fact that I once entertained a man centered theology and now I believe a God centered theology that means I'm inconsistant. To continue in falseness is foolishness. When I realized that the Gospel, as preached by those in the Arminian camp, was inaccurate my only options were to continue in what I knew to be untrue or seek the Truth. I have found that in the views of the reformers that echos the Truth of the Gospel.

Are you feeling sort of shorted out!, because this is my field and can tell you right away where the short is.All You need is a little light with two leads

What's your field, religion?

God bless

Reformationist · Jul 7, 2003

Romanbear said:
God's word interprets itself How can we assume we know what God is thinking.

Again I ask, how do you know what the Word means if it is in any way not explicit?

Let me put it this way. You draw up a set of plans for an electrical circut. Not anyone can read a schematic but to those who can, they understand it perfectly. They know exactly what you want. The way they arrive at the correct knowledge as to what you want is by the symbols you have written down. They mean only one thing. Todays language isn't this way so we try to define what is said for most words this is simple, but for some of the compositions it's not so easy. Now lets say were back to the schematic. It's simple it can only mean one thing. The Bible is this way but over the years language has changed an example; We don't know if good is bad or bad is good because the same term means completely different things. This is where we run in to trouble when trying to define what Gods word says.

Okay. I'm with you so far...

If I define it and say it means one thing and you say it means something else then someone has to be wrong.

Of course. There is also the possibility that we can both be wrong...

You on one hand defined it your self and I let God do that for me.

And how does He do that for you? What method does God use to reveal the Truth of His Word to you?

Here is How you find out. Get on your knees and pray to God to give you an answer and do it with sincerity, pray with ernest and you'll find the answer because God will give it to you.

Pray, wow! Never thought of that...

I do pray. What happens when you ernestly pray for the Truth and I ernestly pray for the Truth and we come up with different understandings?

If you have to interpret it then you're admitting that you don't understand it. Therefore You have to make sense of it. So you interpret it.

Okay, sense you believe you understand it so well, without interpretation, please explain the Trinity, if you believe in the Triune Godhead. The Word is not explicit in every single verse. It says nothing about one of the major beliefs of Christianity, the Trinity. Yet, according to you, you don't need to interpret the Gospel so I'd love to hear how you justify a belief in the Trinity, if you hold one.

Haven't you ever listened to God?.

Of course.

Very little of this post actually comes from my mind, but I'm led as to what to say.

I seriously doubt the Holy Spirit leads you to say what you've said in this post.

frumanchu · Jul 7, 2003

Romanbear said:
As far a continuity. Where is your's? This is what it sounds like to me. You first start out in Arminianism then switch in midstream to Calvinism because it's more appealing to you. I don't know,but there isn't much continuity in this. Then you try to say that I don't show much continuity but, I'm still believing the same doctrine I started with. Sort of sounds like a guilty conscience where the guilty trys to place suspicion on someone else to hide there own wrong doings. Are you feeling sort of shorted out!, because this is my field and can tell you right away where the short is.All You need is a little light with two leads

You started out a reprobate, unregenerate man dead in your trespasses. Assuming you are indeed a believer, righteous in Christ I have to by the same standard declare you inconsistent because you no longer believe what you believed before. If you're still believing the same doctrine you really started with...well, that explains a great deal.

Accusing him of displacing guilt by focusing on others is just rediculous and without any merit.

ZiSunka · Jul 7, 2003

I always pray that the lost will have many oppprtunities to hear the gospel, and that God will do whatever it takes to make their hearts receptive, and that they will not die until they make a real decision one way or another.

frumanchu · Jul 7, 2003

lambslove said:
I always pray that the lost will have many oppprtunities to hear the gospel, and that God will do whatever it takes to make their hearts receptive, and that they will not die until they make a real decision one way or another.

Actually, they've already made the decision. The prayer should be that they change their minds

Romanbear · Jul 7, 2003

Hi Nobody's fool; :wave:

The first time you sat down and read the Bible (weather whole or in part),made absolutely no since to you with out the use of logic. This is why you use it. Do you also use this when reading a news paper, Or do you allow the person writing it to describe what is happening to you? After all we read things all the time that aren't logical.Gods word is foolishness to those who are perrishing. You Can't arrive at truth with logic. You have to have God's help. You only get the help when you believe in Christ. Plain and simple.
I believe in letting God Himself speak to me through his word. He directs me through it. I can't allow my self to throw up a wall made of logic and then deny what is truth because it isn't logical.
A quote from you;
I have an inherent mistrust of any doctrine which I am told to "just accept, don't think about it".
My Reply;
I like you do not trust something in which is told me to just accept. I like to think of my self as having a berean nature. In that I don't take anyone's word for it. I have to check it out. I search the scriptures daily to see if what is said is true.
There are five points or peddles to the tulip and not one is found in scripture. Election is true but it is not unconditional. There is grace but it is not irresistible. Man is depraved but not totally. There is atonement but is only limited by man's choice not God. And perseverance is something we have to do in order to continue in God's grace. Calvinism is a doctrine that IMHO is illogical . It is illogical because it is assumed and twisted and made from very few scriptures.
The Bible says, God is love. If so then what kind of love is this, that is forced by irresistible grace. What kind of love from the men He has created is without choice. There is no love that is forced. The logic of Calvinism, this is not logical. This is nonsense...
In Christ;

Romanbear

nobdysfool · Jul 7, 2003

Romanbear said:
Hi Nobody's fool;
The first time you sat down and read the Bible (weather whole or in part),made absolutely no since to you with out the use of logic. This is why you use it. Do you also use this when reading a news paper, Or do you allow the person writing it to describe what is happening to you? After all we read things all the time that aren't logical.Gods word is foolishness to those who are perrishing. You Can't arrive at truth with logic. You have to have God's help. You only get the help when you believe in Christ. Plain and simple.

This highlights something that has a great deal to do with this discussion. You may think you know what I said, but you haven't grasped what I said. Logic is not the filter through which I read the Word, it is the result of understanding what I have read. God's Word, and His Truth, are so logical once He enlightens you to see it, that it is amazing. God's logic makes perfect sense when He allows you to see from His perspective.

I would never say that any Christian should try to understand the Word apart from the Holy Spirit, so you're preaching to the choir here. Logic is based in truth. It is a method of explaining truth. It is used to separate truth from lies. As such, it is useful when comparing opposing doctrines, but using it to determine doctrine is not the best, although all true doctrine is ultimately logical. But the logic is discerned by the Holy Spirit, who enlightens the believer, allowing them to perceive the logic.

Yes, we read things or hear things all the time that are not logical, but when we realize it, don't we usually discard the illogical? At least mentally healthy people do. What I discern you to be saying however, is that spiritual truth is either not logical or cannot be understood or explained logically, which is not true, and also an illogical argument, if that's what you believe.

I believe in letting God Himself speak to me through his word. He directs me through it. I can't allow my self to throw up a wall made of logic and then deny what is truth because it isn't logical.

Truth is always, ALWAYS, logical. If it seems illogical, it is either because you are not understanding it properly, or you have come to a wrong conclusion. God's ways, His creation, and His dealings with men are very precise and very meticulous, which are hallmarks of a logical mind behind them. Logic by its very definiton is precise and meticulous. Illogic is imprecise and sloppy by comparison. Nothing about God can be said to be imprecise or sloppy. So logic is a feature of Truth. logic is not your enemy, nor God's enemy, it is part and parcel of His Truth.

A quote from you;
I have an inherent mistrust of any doctrine which I am told to "just accept, don't think about it".
My Reply;
I like you do not trust something in which is told me to just accept. I like to think of my self as having a berean nature. In that I don't take anyone's word for it. I have to check it out. I search the scriptures daily to see if what is said is true.
There are five points or peddles to the tulip and not one is found in scripture. Election is true but it is not unconditional. There is grace but it is not irresistible. Man is depraved but not totally. There is atonement but is only limited by man's choice not God. And perseverance is something we have to do in order to continue in God's grace. Calvinism is a doctrine that IMHO is illogical . It is illogical because it is assumed and twisted and made from very few scriptures.

So you believe in Conditional Election, Resistable Grace, Partial Depravity of man, Unlimited Atonement, and Conditional Perserverance based on man's continued effort. Am I stating them correctly? Those terms aren't found in scripture either, so I could say your beliefs are just as unscriptural as you say mine are. I would say that we can eliminate that particular argument, because it is equally applicable to both sides, therefore they cancel each other out.

Now, we're left with actually looking at these doctrines. You say that man is depraved, but not totally. So then, what part of man is still righteous? That's what you're saying. What part of unregenerate man is still in fellowship with God? If you say no part, then man IS totally depraved, which the Word most definitely supports. Romans 1, 3:10-18, 8:5-8.

Total Depravity is the heart of Calvinism, so it is essential to the understanding of Calvinism. I cannot stress this enough. Man became totally cut off from God when he sinned, and within just a few generations was so bad, so depraved, that God wiped out all of mankind except for 8 people. Noah's family repopulated the earth, but man once again became so wicked and depraved that God used Israel (who themselves weren't exactly paragons of virtue with any consistency) to wipe out many of the worst of them. Look around you today. Is the world seeking after God? Are they not all depraved and totally given over to sin? Sinful man does not seek God, he seeks to replace Him with a god who approves of their wickedness. You know this to be true! Sin corrupts the whole man, not just bits and pieces of him. There is no such thing as just a little bit of sin, or just lesser sins. Man is either sinful or he is not. If he is sinful, he is totally sinful. That's not my opinion, that's God's Word.

The Bible says, God is love. If so then what kind of love is this, that is forced by irresistible grace. What kind of love from the men He has created is without choice. There is no love that is forced. The logic of Calvinism, this is not logical. This is nonsense...

You want to exalt His Love to be the prime motivation for all He does, but you're defining that Love in emotional, human terms. God's attributes do not exist in a heirarchal order, with one (Love) being pre-eminant and the others being subservient to that one attribute. God's actions are in concert with all His attributes in a perfect symphony of motive, action and result.

You do not understand what Calvinists mean by Irresistable Grace. You think that we're saying God is forcing His Grace on someone. That is not true at all. When God draws someone to Himself, He opens their eyes to see their true condition (total depravity), and then shows them the Grace He offers (undeserved favor), and the person responds to that Grace in the only way he wants to, by receiving it. All choice is based on desire. We all have a built in desire to live. When God shows you the real choice you have (life or death), you will choose life, willingly and gladly! Until God opens their eyes, man doesn't know, or care to know, what his final fate will be, and actually thinks that he can cheat it somehow. Even if he's heard some of the Gospel, until God grants Grace to him, he will not choose it. It is not just hearing the Gospel that will cause men to choose God, it is hearing the Gospel mixed with God's Grace that makes it possible for man to choose God. All choice is based on desire, and the unregenerate man does not desire to know God, therefore that choice is not one he will make, or can make. So the idea of free will and man having a choice is really the same thing that Satan tempted Eve with: the Lie of Eden.

You say Calvinism is not logical, but I can prove to you that Arminianism is the belief that is not logical. You on the one hand reject logic, until it suits your purpose to use it. That, in itself, is illogical.

frumanchu · Jul 7, 2003

I actually formulated a quite extensive list of Scriptures in support of the Five Points in response to your number 28, bear, but I was offline at the time and accidently hit 'preview post' thus wiping out the entire cached post. Time permitting I will re-collect the verses and post them tomorrow.

:sigh:

There's an hour of my life I'll never get back...

Reformationist · Jul 8, 2003

Romanbear said:
Hi Nobody's fool;
You Can't arrive at truth with logic. You have to have God's help. You only get the help when you believe in Christ. Plain and simple.

I'd love for you to explain something to me. You say, "you can't arrive at the truth with logic. You have to have God's help." Right? So, a person gets presented with the Gospel and he is unable to believe until God gives him His grace (help) which enables him to believe, right? But then you say you don't get the help until you believe. I'd love to hear how a person can get God's help to believe if they only get that help when they believe. That is a complete contradiction.

I search the scriptures daily to see if what is said is true.

I'll ask you again. If you don't interpret Scripture, which is itself a illogical assertation, yet you believe you understand Scripture what is it that you are searching for on a daily basis? It seems to me that when you hear someone's explanation of a biblical passage you look to the Scriptures and see if it jives with your own interpretation of those passages and if it doesn't then you just say they're wrong because they interpret the Gospel while you "let God's word speak to you." Please provide one example of one, single, solitary evangelist (aside from Christ) or theologian that says they don't interpret Scripture.

There are five points or peddles to the tulip and not one is found in scripture.

Riiiiiight. Some of the most learned biblical scholars in the history of man, who have studied the Bible relentlessly for many decades, many of whom actually teach theology, have built their beliefs based on years of prayer and study and you say that no part of that theology is found in Scripture. Riiiiiiight.

Election is true but it is not unconditional.

I absolutely agree. There are conditions. The conditions upon which our salvation is based just aren't met by us.

There is grace but it is not irresistible.

Man can, and does resist the grace of God. Man does not, nor can he resist the sovereign decreed Will of God.

Man is depraved but not totally.

The Fall of man resulted in the radical corruption of man's nature. "Total" is a term that is often misunderstood to mean "utter." Man is not as bad as he can possibly be. The corruption of his nature, however, has extended to all parts of his being.

There is atonement but is only limited by man's choice not God.

So the atonement that was divinely provided by the Creator of all things created, to include you, is limited by the creation. Yeah. Real God centered view you got there....

And perseverance is something we have to do in order to continue in God's grace.

How does one "continue in" grace which is unmerited by it's very nature?

Calvinism is a doctrine that IMHO is illogical . It is illogical because it is assumed and twisted and made from very few scriptures.

LOL! I seriously doubt you've ever spent much time even studying the reformed faith. Your apparent understanding, or should I say lack of understanding, of it shows that very clearly.

The Bible says, God is love. If so then what kind of love is this, that is forced by irresistible grace. What kind of love from the men He has created is without choice. There is no love that is forced. The logic of Calvinism, this is not logical. This is nonsense...

This whole discussion is becoming nonsense and non-edifying. I'll pray for you that God will enlighten you to His Truth and the Sovereign Plan He has for His creation.

God bless

frumanchu · Jul 8, 2003

There are five points or [petals] to the tulip and not one is found in scripture.

OK. I'll bite. Let's take a look.

Election is true but it is not unconditional.

"All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." (Mt 11:27)

"For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 22:14

"These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful." Rev 17:14

"And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elects sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days." Mark 13:20

"... knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God." 1 Thess 1:4

"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thess 2:13

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved." Eph 1:4

"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." Rom 9:16

"...who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus ?n?before time began" 2 Tim 1:9

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you." John 15:16

"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

"And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;" Acts 18:27

"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thess 2:13,14

There is grace but it is not irresistible.

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12,13

"And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." Deut 30:6

"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." Ezek 36:26,27

"For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will." John 5:21

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" Eph 2:1,5

"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Matt 11:25-27

"To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that Seeing they may not see,And hearing they may not understand." Luke 8:10

"He said to them, But who do you say that I am?
Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." Matt 16:15-17

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14

"Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14

"...in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will." 2 Tim 2:25,26

"John answered and said, A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven" John 3:27

"I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then ?h?neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase." 1 Cor 3:6,7

Man is depraved but not totally.

"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Gen 2:16,17

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" Eph 2:1,5

"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" Col 2:13

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies." Ps 58:3

"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." John 3:19,20

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." Rom 8:7,8

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14

"..to the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled." Titus 1:15

"Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!" Job 14:4

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil." Jer 13:23

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

"And He said, Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." John 6:65

"As it is written:
There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips;
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes. Rom 3:10-18

To Be Continued...

frumanchu · Jul 8, 2003

Continuing...

There is atonement but is only limited by man's choice not God.

"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." Matt 1:21

"And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, ?g?but the will of Him who sent Me. ? This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:35-40

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep...I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father. John 10:11,14-18

"Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Fathers name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathers hand." John 10:24-29

"Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are...I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word...Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them. John 17:1-11, 20, 24-26

"Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." Acts 20:28

"And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." Heb 9:15

And perseverance is something we have to do in order to continue in God's grace.

"And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me." Jer 32:40

"What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish." Matt 18:12-14

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathers hand." John 10:27-29

"Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Rom 8:30

"...so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." 1 Cor 1:7-9

"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it." 1 Cor 10:13

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." Eph 1:13-14

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Eph 4:30

"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it." 1 Thess 5:23,24

"And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!" 2 Tim 4:18

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." 1 John 2:19

"For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world our faith...And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God....And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." 1 John 5:4, 11-13,20

"To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ" Jude 1

"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy...Be glory and majesty,Dominion and power,Both now and forever." Jude 24,25

Some of these passages speak to multiple points, but for the most part I chose not to post them multiple times.

Calvinism is a doctrine that IMHO is illogical . It is illogical because it is assumed and twisted and made from very few scriptures.

The doctrine of the Trinity has its basis on fewer Scriptures than I just posted here, yet I don't see you arguing that doctrine.

The Bible says, God is love. If so then what kind of love is this, that is forced by irresistible grace. What kind of love from the men He has created is without choice. There is no love that is forced. The logic of Calvinism, this is not logical. This is nonsense...

If the Bible says God is love and the God shown in the Scriptures doesn't sound like a loving God, guess whose definition needs modification

BTW, didn't you accuse me within the last few days of relying to heavily on logic in my assertions? And now you're saying they're illogical? I'm confused...which is it?!?

Romanbear · Jul 8, 2003

Hi Nobodies fool; :wave:

A quote from you;
This highlights something that has a great deal to do with this discussion. You may think you know what I said, but you haven't grasped what I said.
My reply;
I grasped what you said.You just didn't make your self clear.

When man uses his own interpretation of Gods word, then he comes up with false doctrines . In my Conversation with Reformationist.He kept saying he has to interpret and his logic is the result. Not once did he use the terms God's interpretation or God's logic. Mans own of these two are seldom right in comparison to God's. Of coarse God's word is truth, but we only understand it, in whole, as truth, when He enlightens us with the understanding we need.When we are called or drawn by the spirit we have just enough understanding to grasp our convictions and to know we need a savior from our sins.
Conditional Election;

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

This was what Christ preached. This was His message. Notice that repentance always comes first

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Sounds like conditions to me. No where in scripture does it say we are made to believe. We are not regenerated before we believe. This also is no where to be found in scripture.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
We are risen with him through faith without faith we are not quickened

Grace; ( Favor )

If it were not resistible then all man would be saved because of His will.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Depravity of man; Doesn't exists in the Bible and some here have gone so far as to call man reprobate. How ever this is the meaning I think best suits this term.
2. Abandoned in sin; lost to virtue or grace.

If so then there is no election for these.

Depraved is a temporary condition that is only permanent upon death.If man is dead then there is no second chance. and if his spirit is dead then he is as well...

Unlimited Atonement;

Put simply God can save all, if he so desires.The only thing that will cause Him to desire your salvation is your belief in Him and His son. The blood of Christ the most valuable thing to ever be on this earth. It's power to save is unlimited ours is the next move. To Believe...

Perseverance;
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Eph 6:18 says to me we should pray always in earnest in the spirit and continuing in earnest for all saints this is suggesting that it is we who continue in our faith otherwise there would be no faith for faith is the hope for which is not seen. Salvation is the gift not faith although it can be strengthened

A quote from you;

You want to exalt His Love to be the prime motivation for all He does, but you're defining that Love in emotional, human terms.

My Reply;

Truthfully now, there is no way you could know this since you don't know me. You are assuming that you know what my emotions are but you don't, nor could you.

A quote from you;

You do not understand what Calvinists mean by Irresistable Grace.

My Reply;

You're right. I don't or should I say. How could I when in every forum I've been to I meet those Calvinist who do not believe all of there own tulip.There are hyper Calvinist Partial Calvinist and Calvinist who don't know anything about what they're claiming and just saying they are to keep from being embarrassed.

There was a time when I thought that Calvinism must be alright but that was before I read the institutes of Christianity. Before I studied Calvinism to see what they believe. No it didn't change my beliefs it made them stronger.
May God bless you

In Christ;

Roamnbear

Romanbear · Jul 8, 2003

Hi Reformationist; :wave:

I don't spend all day at the computer answering questions read the reply to No bodies fool. Since his post concerned what I said to you. The three of you seem to want to flood me out with questions. To make post shoter should I take one question at a time and ignore the rest.
May God bless you.
In Christ;

Romanbear

Reformationist · Jul 8, 2003

Romanbear said:
Hi Reformationist;
I don't spend all day at the computer answering questions read the reply to No bodies fool. Since his post concerned what I said to you. The three of you seem to want to flood me out with questions. To make post shoter should I take one question at a time and ignore the rest.
May God bless you.
In Christ;
Romanbear

I'm going to go ahead and remove myself from this equation. I hope that you find enjoyable discussion with the other posters. On the bright side, that is one less poster to "flood you with questions."

God bless

nobdysfool · Jul 8, 2003

Romanbear said:
Hi Nobodies fool;
A quote from you;
This highlights something that has a great deal to do with this discussion. You may think you know what I said, but you haven't grasped what I said.
My reply;
I grasped what you said.You just didn't make your self clear.

When man uses his own interpretation of Gods word, then he comes up with false doctrines . In my Conversation with Reformationist.He kept saying he has to interpret and his logic is the result. Not once did he use the terms God's interpretation or God's logic. Mans own of these two are seldom right in comparison to God's. Of coarse God's word is truth, but we only understand it, in whole, as truth, when He enlightens us with the understanding we need.When we are called or drawn by the spirit we have just enough understanding to grasp our convictions and to know we need a savior from our sins.

I don't think you have a real clear understanding of how one goes about studying the Word, and learning about the doctrines of the faith. Everything I've read from you sounds like you trying to reason it out, and what you're coming up with is a very man-centric view of salvation. You need to study very carefully what Frumanchu posted to you. In those scriptures you will find support for and exposition of the 5 points of Calvinism, or the TULIP.

Conditional Election;

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

This was what Christ preached. This was His message. Notice that repentance always comes first

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Sounds like conditions to me. No where in scripture does it say we are made to believe. We are not regenerated before we believe. This also is no where to be found in scripture.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
We are risen with him through faith without faith we are not quickened

You misunderstand Election. Election is totally the work of God. Man has no input in it. God has Elected those whom He has chosen from before the foundation of the world. There is nothing that man can do to "get Elected", and there is no way for the Elect to "get unelected". Election is not salvation. Salvation has conditions. Election doesn't. Election insures salvation, at the proper time, when God calls that person in time.

Grace; ( Favor )

If it were not resistible then all man would be saved because of His will.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Depravity of man; Doesn't exists in the Bible and some here have gone so far as to call man reprobate. How ever this is the meaning I think best suits this term.
2. Abandoned in sin; lost to virtue or grace.

If so then there is no election for these.

Grace is unmerited favor. It is Mercy, shown by God to whom He wills. All men are justly condemned and stand condemned for their sins before God. God chooses (Elects) some to be recipients of His Mercy, by His own choosing, and not for anything in them, or anything that they will do, or have done, or are doing. God's Justice will be carried out on the non-Elect, and it is justice, for "all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God." "There is none righteous, no, not one." "There is none that seek after God". So, unless God sheds His Grace and Mercy on them, they won't come. "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Romans 9:13-16)

Depraved is a temporary condition that is only permanent upon death.If man is dead then there is no second chance. and if his spirit is dead then he is as well...

Depravity is total for man, because it affects every part of his being. That is man's condition from the moment of conception. Unless God sheds His Grace and mercy on that man, it is permanent, because unregenerate man cannot and will not seek God. You argue for man to have a capability he does not have. His depravity prevents it.

Unlimited Atonement;

Put simply God can save all, if he so desires.The only thing that will cause Him to desire your salvation is your belief in Him and His son. The blood of Christ the most valuable thing to ever be on this earth. It's power to save is unlimited ours is the next move. To Believe...

Read very carefully what you just said. First you say that God can save all if He desires to. Then you say that man must make the first move (belief) in order to cause God to desire him. Scripture please! You're saying that God's desire to save is based on man's belief. That is totally illogical! Let's examine this closely. You say that God can save all if He desires to. What would cause Him not to desire to save all? Man's unbelief? OK...assuming that, then you say that if man believes, God will then desire to save him. Do you see what is going on here? Man is in control in this scenario. Man is calling the shots. That is totally unscriptural. I refer you back to Romans 9. It is God who makes those decisions, not man.

The Atonement of Christ is completely sufficient to save all who believe, but it is only effective (efficacious) for those who do believe. That makes the Atonement unlimited in potential, but Limited in Actuality (not all are saved). We have to deal with what is real here. Arguing for an Unlimited Atonement is meaningless, because it cannot be unlimited unless everyone is saved by it, a situation which is obviously untrue, unless you want to try arguing for Universalism.

Perseverance;

Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Eph 6:18 says to me we should pray always in earnest in the spirit and continuing in earnest for all saints this is suggesting that it is we who continue in our faith otherwise there would be no faith for faith is the hope for which is not seen. Salvation is the gift not faith although it can be strengthened

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:24-39 (emphasis mine)

That is what is meant by the Perserverance of the Saints. It is God who keeps us, not we ourselves. Our perserverance is the answer of a good conscience and grateful heart to God.

A quote from you;

You want to exalt His Love to be the prime motivation for all He does, but you're defining that Love in emotional, human terms.

My Reply;

Truthfully now, there is no way you could know this since you don't know me. You are assuming that you know what my emotions are but you don't, nor could you.

I am not talking about your own emotions, I'm talking about this sentimentalized idea of God as, in effect, pining away for the love of man, like a love-sick boy, wringing his hands and hoping that he will be loved. It's pathetic! God is the Sovereign Lord of Heaven, and all Creation. He is perfect and complete, and lacks nothing. He chooses to share His Love with those whom He has chosen. He doesn't need their love, He shares His. It is man who needs God's Love. It's all about God, and not about man.

A quote from you;

You do not understand what Calvinists mean by Irresistable Grace.

My Reply;

You're right. I don't or should I say. How could I when in every forum I've been to I meet those Calvinist who do not believe all of there own tulip.There are hyper Calvinist Partial Calvinist and Calvinist who don't know anything about what they're claiming and just saying they are to keep from being embarrassed.

I explained to you exactly what Irresistable Grace works like. God does not force, He merely enlightens, and enables man to choose that which he could not before. It is man who finds the Grace Irresistable, not God saying "you WILL recieve my Grace! Resistance is Futile!"

There was a time when I thought that Calvinism must be alright but that was before I read the institutes of Christianity. Before I studied Calvinism to see what they believe. No it didn't change my beliefs it made them stronger.
May God bless you

Then I propose to you that you did not understand Calvinism, or it wasn't presented properly to you. The things you have said here tell me that you do not understand it. It is obvious, for you have detailed every misconception, every distortion, and every mis-application of what Calvinists believe here. I have tried to answer to the best of my ability without bombarding you with scriptures in place of explanation. I quoted some scripture here, because it illustrated my points. Frumanchu gave you a lot of scripture to help you understand as well. I hope you can clear your mind and study these scriptures, so that you can see why we say what we do, and what we actually mean.

In Christ;

nobdysfool

frumanchu · Jul 8, 2003

Romanbear said:
Conditional Election;
This was what Christ preached. This was His message. Notice that repentance always comes first

That's not the issue. The issue is what leads one to repent in the first place. As was pointed out, all your verses refer to salvation, not election. We've explained numerous times that they are not the same thing, yet you persist in saying they are. Salvation is conditional. Election is not.

No where in scripture does it say we are made to believe. We are not regenerated before we believe. This also is no where to be found in scripture.

Just like the petals of the TULIP aren't, right? See posts 32 and 33.

If it were not resistible then all man would be saved because of His will. 2Pe 3:9

This is predicated on your demonstrably false interpretation of this verse. I've labored at great length to show for you and others that this verse DOES NOT and CANNOT argue God's will for each and every individual man to be saved.

Depravity of man; Doesn't exists in the Bible and some here have gone so far as to call man reprobate. How ever this is the meaning I think best suits this term.

See posts 32 and 33 above.

Depraved is a temporary condition that is only permanent upon death.If man is dead then there is no second chance. and if his spirit is dead then he is as well...

I do not dispute that depravity is temporary in terms of potentiality in that the possibility exist that it may cease, and indeed death is the point of no return. The issue is who has the ability to dissolve the depravity, God or man? You say man. Scripture says otherwise.

Unlimited Atonement;
Put simply God can save all, if he so desires.The only thing that will cause Him to desire your salvation is your belief in Him and His son. The blood of Christ the most valuable thing to ever be on this earth. It's power to save is unlimited ours is the next move. To Believe...

Not WAIT A MINUTE! You just got done arguing per 2 Peter 3:9 that God desires that ALL men be saved. Now you say that if He so desires, He can save all. The questions begs...then WHY DOESN'T HE? The only thing that will cause Him to desire your salvation is your belief in Him and His Son? Not all men believe in Him and His Son, yet you contend He desires ALL men be saved. Or do you? I'm confused. Maybe the logic's getting in the way...

And for the hundredth time I will remind an Arminian that the doctrine of limited atonement refers to the efficacy of the atonement, NOT the sufficiency. Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all, but efficient only for the elect. Further, you still have to deal with the Scriptures above that show His atonement was intended for His sheep, NOT all men.

Perseverance;
Eph 6:18 says to me we should pray always in earnest in the spirit and continuing in earnest for all saints this is suggesting that it is we who continue in our faith otherwise there would be no faith for faith is the hope for which is not seen. Salvation is the gift not faith although it can be strengthened

Looks to me like you're interpreting. Let go and let God, man...

You're right. I don't or should I say. How could I when in every forum I've been to I meet those Calvinist who do not believe all of there own tulip.There are hyper Calvinist Partial Calvinist and Calvinist who don't know anything about what they're claiming and just saying they are to keep from being embarrassed.

I cannot speak to the theology of others you have encountered, but I know that Reformationist, nobdysfool, RnMomof7, CCWoody, drstevej, Calvinist_Dark_Lord, myself and most of the other Calvinists I've encountered here are very knowledgable and consistent in their Reformed views. You on the other hand have repeatedly misrepresented and distorted the Calvinist position with regularity. Either you do not really know Reformed theology or you are intentionally distorting it. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and laboring to explain the position as thoroughly and SCRIPTURALLY as possible.

There was a time when I thought that Calvinism must be alright but that was before I read the institutes of Christianity. Before I studied Calvinism to see what they believe. No it didn't change my beliefs it made them stronger.

Sounds to me like you have a weak stomach. Do yourself a favor and avoid Jonathan Edwards at all costs!

boughtwithaprice · Jul 9, 2003

When man uses his own interpretation of Gods word, then he comes up with false doctrines . In my Conversation with Reformationist.He kept saying he has to interpret and his logic is the result. Not once did he use the terms God's interpretation or God's logic. Mans own of these two are seldom right in comparison to God's. Of coarse God's word is truth, but we only understand it, in whole, as truth, when He enlightens us with the understanding we need.

The above quote is from Romanbear

God has given us two clear interpretations of soteriology which should settle this debate, but somehow I am still wondering. Let's try it anyway.

God communicates to man by using parables and analogies. The two analogies He has given us in regard to soteriology are the "Birth" analogy and the "Marriage" analogy. My fallen nature and logic do not come close to God's, but I do know what birth and marriage are.

Humans do not choose to be born, and marriages that are the happiest are where the male is the selector (elector). In the marriages where the female is the selector, the male is said to be "whipped" or "henpecked". "Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." Gen3:16 The church is the bride of Christ, we are female. Jesus is the selector. (elector) He is not whipped and henpecked.

Given these analogies from God, I believe Calvinism because, are you ready for the sound bites from James Carville?,

Christians are born-again, not made :scratch:

and

Are we not men? We are female.

Chew on that for awhile.

In Christ, Jerome

Romanbear · Jul 9, 2003

Hi Boughtwithaprice; :wave:

a quote from you;
Humans do not choose to be born, and marriages that are the happiest are where the male is the selector (elector). In the marriages where the female is the selector, the male is said to be "whipped" or "henpecked". "Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." Gen3:16 The church is the bride of Christ, we are female. Jesus is the selector. (elector) He is not whipped and henpecked.
My Reply;
I'm sure you didn't mean to, but your analogy of marriage is rather new, in comparison to the way it was 2000years ago. Actually the male had little to do with the choice, neither did the female. Marriages were arranged and contracts were signed without the input of either of the two getting married. Arranged marriages in those days were far more successful than male chosen are today. Marriages that are successful today are mutually agreed on , in most cases or it doesn't happen. You take my wife and I. We mutually agreed and we've been married since 1963. Yes I popped the question but she didn't have to say yes. She chose me as well. I still love my wife and always will. We've had a good life together.Actually she is the best thing since apple pie . Marriage to her has been a privledge.
In Christ;

Ray

Should we pray for the lost?

God's justice does not demand second chances

The original! Accept no substitutes!

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

God's justice does not demand second chances

It means 'yellow dog'

God's justice does not demand second chances

Active Member

The original! Accept no substitutes!

God's justice does not demand second chances

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

God's justice does not demand second chances

God's justice does not demand second chances

Active Member

Active Member

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

The original! Accept no substitutes!

God's justice does not demand second chances

Legend

Active Member

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