• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

THE GREAT CONTROVERSY in Baltimore, Maryland

Freth

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 11, 2020
1,895
2,213
Midwest, USA
✟714,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Thanks Bob for addressing my questions. If, as you say, THE GREAT CONTROVERSY does not make converts and is not being used as an evangelistic text by your church, then why are you mailing it to everyone in Baltimore? Personally, I think a good telephone directory would probably be more relevant and useful to most folks.

I don't understand why you're still stuck on this point. It is a common practice to pass out tracts and books by most Christian denominations, and even mail them to people. Over the years I've received a large number of tracts and even personally written letters from Christians of other denominations, and none of them were requested. Occasionally I'll have them knock on my door. I don't get upset, I smile, because it means someone out there cares about my salvation.

I've already shown that the book isn't biased in any way toward our denomination. It doesn't ask the reader to contact us or seek out our church. It presents history and Biblical topics to the reader so that they can be informed, and hopefully make the decision to repent and be saved.
 
Upvote 0

Freth

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 11, 2020
1,895
2,213
Midwest, USA
✟714,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
What would you think if you received a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church in the mail some fine day?

Something you might not understand about Seventh-day Adventists... We read written works from various denominations as part of our Bible study, and we even watch sermons from various other denominations. The goal being to rightly divide the truth according to what the Bible says.

I've already read a bit of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I don't own a physical copy, so I would most likely add it to my library and use it for research into Catholic beliefs and compare it to scripture. This is what any Christian should do, actively test all things.

I don't understand the animosity. We're all Christians.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
32,081
14,561
74
✟469,748.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I don't understand why you're still stuck on this point. It is a common practice to pass out tracts and books by most Christian denominations, and even mail them to people. Over the years I've received a large number of tracts and even personally written letters from Christians of other denominations, and none of them were requested. Occasionally I'll have them knock on my door. I don't get upset, I smile, because it means someone out there cares about my salvation.

I've already shown that the book isn't biased in any way toward our denomination. It doesn't ask the reader to contact us or seek out our church. It presents history and Biblical topics to the reader so that they can be informed, and hopefully make the decision to repent and be saved.
Actually, I am quite surprised at the longevity of this thread. I have started numerous thread here, all of which quickly faded, but this thread seems to have developed legs of its own. I merely respond to those, such as yourself, who wish to post on it.

If you believe the Bible to be the Word of God and the only inspired communication from God to man, why don't you mail Bibles instead of a book written by a mere mortal? It would be far less expensive. The American Bible Society sells very inexpensive Bibles.

One of the problem that I perceive is that virtually all Americans either have at least one Bible or have ready access to the Bible. However, very few have access to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, so it would be in the greater interest of the Catholic Church to mail everyone a CCC instead of a Bible, don't you think?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
17,925
9,693
51
The Wild West
✟966,619.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
If you believe the Bible to be the Word of God and the only inspired communication from God to man, why don't you mail Bibles instead of a book written by a mere mortal? It would be far less expensive. The American Bible Society sells very inexpensive Bibles.

Also you have the Gideons who place them free of charge in hotels and prisons.
 
Upvote 0

Freth

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 11, 2020
1,895
2,213
Midwest, USA
✟714,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Actually, I am quite surprised at the longevity of this thread. I have started numerous thread here, all of which quickly faded, but this thread seems to have developed legs of its own. I merely respond to those, such as yourself, who wish to post on it.

If you believe the Bible to be the Word of God and the only inspired communication from God to man, why don't you mail Bibles instead of a book written by a mere mortal? It would be far less expensive. The American Bible Society sells very inexpensive Bibles.

One of the problem that I perceive is that virtually all Americans either have at least one Bible or have ready access to the Bible. However, very few have access to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, so it would be in the greater interest of the Catholic Church to mail everyone a CCC instead of a Bible, don't you think?

Our denomination has a focus on Bible prophecy, and getting the word out about end time events. If a person can read about church history and end time events, it might pique an interest in reading the Bible, where just receiving a Bible may not, as many people grew up with a dusty Bible in their house, but never once picked it up to read it. Bibles are commonplace, and often ignored in the household.

Recently, an independent SDA ministry called Heritage & Hope Ministries (YouTube) went to Washington DC and handed out thousands of Great Controversies during the 250 year celebration. They were well-received.

Why not Bibles? Christian Nationalism is on the rise and prophecy is being fulfilled. What Ellen wrote over a hundred years ago concerning Bible prophecy is actually coming to pass. It is about present truth, so that people can see what is happening in real-time that is fulfilling Bible prophecy.

The Great Controversy can then be used as a companion to studying Bible prophecy, as it quotes scripture regularly throughout. The reader would then seek to own a Bible.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
32,081
14,561
74
✟469,748.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Our denomination has a focus on Bible prophecy, and getting the word out about end time events. If a person can read about church history and end time events, it might pique an interest in reading the Bible, where just receiving a Bible may not, as many people grew up with a dusty Bible in their house, but never once picked it up to read it. Bibles are commonplace, and often ignored in the household.

Recently, an independent SDA ministry called Heritage & Hope Ministries (YouTube) went to Washington DC and handed out thousands of Great Controversies during the 250 year celebration. They were well-received.

Why not Bibles? Christian Nationalism is on the rise and prophecy is being fulfilled. What Ellen wrote over a hundred years ago concerning Bible prophecy is actually coming to pass. It is about present truth, so that people can see what is happening in real-time that is fulfilling Bible prophecy.

The Great Controversy can then be used as a companion to studying Bible prophecy, as it quotes scripture regularly throughout. The reader would then seek to own a Bible.
I am curious now. Is Christian Nationalism a good thing or not? Personally, I have not observed the slightest evidence of it where I live, unless you count the supporters of our President as Christian Nationalists.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
54,767
12,371
Georgia
✟1,222,411.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
What would you think if you received a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church in the mail some fine day?
I have an old copy of it in the book' The Faith Explained" in my library , I would appreciate an updated form if there is one.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
54,767
12,371
Georgia
✟1,222,411.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I am curious now. Is Christian Nationalism a good thing or not? Personally, I have not observed the slightest evidence of it where I live, unless you count the supporters of our President as Christian Nationalists.
I like a lot of things in it.

But I would not like to see a "religious test" applied before allowing someone to vote, or that had civil penalties attached to giving this or that answer to the text.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
54,767
12,371
Georgia
✟1,222,411.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Thanks Bob for addressing my questions. If, as you say, THE GREAT CONTROVERSY does not make converts and is not being used as an evangelistic text by your church, then why are you mailing it to everyone
I personally am not bulk mailing it out and I don't think I ever said that it presents no doctrine, no Bible teaching etc.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
40,509
30,296
Pacific Northwest
✟869,896.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Something you might not understand about Seventh-day Adventists... We read written works from various denominations as part of our Bible study, and we even watch sermons from various other denominations. The goal being to rightly divide the truth according to what the Bible says.

I've already read a bit of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I don't own a physical copy, so I would most likely add it to my library and use it for research into Catholic beliefs and compare it to scripture. This is what any Christian should do, actively test all things.

I don't understand the animosity. We're all Christians.

Allow me to be honest. I don't really believe you. Perhaps there are SDAs who do. But my experience over the last 15 years has shown me that knowledge of non Seventh Day Adventist churches is exceptionally limited and small. I have seen brazen misrepresentation of non SDA sources; and never in the entire time I've been on Christian Forums have I ever seen a genuine even the tiniest attempt to learn.
Have you ever read the Catholic Catechism outside of an anti-Catholic, official Seventh Day Adventist source? Have you ever read the Book of Concord itself? Have you read any of the Confessional texts of the Presbyterians or Methodists?

I simply don't believe you when you say "We read written works from various denominations as part of our Bible study".

I do, however, believe that you probably get pre-packaged spoon-fed portions that serve the interests of your organization. But never a fully free-conscience act of reading material in its own proper context.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
54,767
12,371
Georgia
✟1,222,411.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married

1. Why? Why deluge a large city with your denomination's key text, if in actual fact, you really believe that the Bible alone is the basis of all of your beliefs, as many of our SDA friends here at CF assert.

The gook is a commentary on the history of the Christian church from the time of Christ to today.

It is not a list of "because I said so' statements and is not of the form "here is a bunch of doctrines to believe"

Adventist practice is not to go read the book Great Controversy and have it tell you what doctrine to believe any more than any other Christian commentary on Christian history be expected to include Christian teaching.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
54,767
12,371
Georgia
✟1,222,411.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Allow me to be honest. I don't really believe you. Perhaps there are SDAs who do. But my experience over the last 15 years has shown me that knowledge of non Seventh Day Adventist churches is exceptionally limited and small.
My experience is that around half of the members of the SDA churches I have attended were either members of another denomination before becoming SDA or their parents were. That may not be the case in the SDA churches you have been a member of... but that is what I see.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
32,081
14,561
74
✟469,748.00
Faith
Non-Denom
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
17,925
9,693
51
The Wild West
✟966,619.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
If a person can read about church history

The issue on this point is that the The Great Controversy is not recognized by scholars including many members of your own denomination as a reliable source of information concerning the history of Christianity. In particular it contains information pertaining to the Roman Catholic Church and the history of the Byzantine Empire and concerning denominations which is not historically accurate.

We’re also not talking about a subject which can easily be compressed into one book - the Cambridge History of Christianity is nine volumes, for example.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sophia7
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
32,081
14,561
74
✟469,748.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I like a lot of things in it.

But I would not like to see a "religious test" applied before allowing someone to vote, or that had civil penalties attached to giving this or that answer to the text.
I have not actually met anyone who has any expectation that religious belief would be a basis for voting. The current thrust in voting restriction seems to be centered on restricting absentee voting and other (alleged) abuses of the voting system. Some have read into this scenario a racist content, which might be true in some of the deep South states. There is also a xenophobic content, as well, with Mexicans, in particular, being singled out for being illegal voters.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
32,081
14,561
74
✟469,748.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I personally am not bulk mailing it out and I don't think I ever said that it presents no doctrine, no Bible teaching etc.
This thread is not at all about you, so I am perplexed that you assume that my questions are personally directed at you. It is your denomination, the SDA, which is engaging in this mailing. From your position within the SDA, do you believe that THE GREAT CONTROVERSY is an exceedingly valuable book, worthy of being read by everyone, and thus worth the expense and effort of mailing it to every postal address in Baltimore?
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
17,925
9,693
51
The Wild West
✟966,619.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I have an old copy of it in the book' The Faith Explained" in my library , I would appreciate an updated form if there is one.


That is the only official catechism of the Roman Catholic Church ( @bbbbbbb also linked to a copy of it hosted elsewhere, but this link takes you directly to the Vatican’s official website ).

This has been explained to you before.

So I asked chatGPT 5.6 Sol at the maximum Thinking setting “Why do Adventists use unofficial or local books about Roman Catholicism even when encouraged to refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church?”

The answer it generated:

The main reason is that many popular Adventist treatments of Catholicism are constructing a prosecutorial case, not describing Catholic theology on its own terms. They want concise statements that can be presented as admissions against interest. Older catechisms and apologetic manuals are splendid for this purpose: short questions, blunt answers, minimal context, and no tiresome theological distinctions interfering with the handout.

The Baltimore Catechism originated with the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore in 1884 and functioned as the national American catechism for generations. The USCCB now describes it as a historical “minor catechism,” while the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the present universal reference text. (USCCB) The Faith Explained, by contrast, is Leo Trese’s private 1959 exposition of the older catechetical framework, not an act of the Catholic magisterium. (Internet Archive)

Why the older books persist​

1. Adventist literature inherits quotation chains​

A great deal of Adventist anti-Catholic literature was assembled before the CCC appeared in 1992. Later writers frequently copied the references from earlier evangelistic books rather than researching Catholic teaching again from primary sources. Thus a quotation from a 1940s or 1970s catechism passes from tract to sermon to website, acquiring the patina of sacred bibliographic tradition, humanity’s preferred substitute for checking things.

A booklet currently hosted by Amazing Facts, for example, supports numerous claims about Catholic authority, confession, celibacy, Mary, and the sacraments by citing John Hardon’s Question and Answer Catholic Catechism, William Cogan’s A Catechism for Adults, Gerald Williams’s Contemporary Catholic Catechism, John Scholl’s New Catechism of the Catholic Faith, and John O’Brien’s Faith of Millions. Most are private handbooks from the 1970s rather than the current universal catechism.

2. The old sources provide better “Catholic admissions”​

The Baltimore style says:

Who has this power?
The priest has this power.
The CCC is more likely to spend several paragraphs explaining:

  • what power means;
  • whose power it ultimately is;
  • how Christ acts through a sacrament;
  • what the minister does and does not do;
  • the biblical and patristic basis;
  • the limits imposed by canon law.
That makes the CCC much better theology but markedly worse ammunition for a twenty-minute prophecy seminar. A sentence such as “the priest really forgives sins” can be detached and made to sound as though Catholicism teaches that Father O’Malley personally owns a small franchise in divine mercy. The CCC’s more exact account would force the critic to engage Catholic categories rather than substitute a deliberately crude interpretation.

3. “Imprimatur” is often confused with “official doctrine”​

Popular polemics routinely treat these categories as interchangeable:

  • written by a Catholic priest;
  • published by a Catholic publisher;
  • carrying an imprimatur;
  • used in Catholic instruction;
  • official declaration of the Catholic Church.
They are not interchangeable. An imprimatur means that the competent authority found nothing contrary to Catholic faith or morals in the publication. It does not make every sentence the Church’s definitive or preferred formulation, nor does it turn the author into a dicastery with a typewriter. (USCCB)

A private catechism may accurately express Catholic doctrine, but it remains a secondary witness. It should not take precedence over a current universal catechism, council document, canon, or papal text.

4. Older language fits the Adventist continuity argument​

Within traditional Adventist prophetic interpretation, historical Roman Catholicism is not merely background. Its institutional claims, relationship with civil power, and expected eschatological role form part of the prophetic framework. The General Conference’s official statement on Catholicism explicitly links the historical Catholic system, church-state relations, and expected future religious oppression. (General Conference SDA)

Consequently, many Adventist polemicists approach post-Vatican II Catholic language with suspicion. They regard older books as revealing what Rome “really believes,” while newer language is treated as diplomacy, camouflage, or public relations. That assumption often operates before the texts are compared. The argument then becomes conveniently immune to evidence:

  • If the CCC agrees with the old quotation, Rome has not changed.
  • If the CCC qualifies it, Rome is concealing its real teaching.
  • If the CCC contradicts the alleged quotation, the contradiction proves Rome is deceptive.
It is a marvelously self-sealing method, rather like designing a smoke detector that interprets the absence of smoke as proof that the fire has become cunning.

5. The older works are easier to quote​

The Baltimore Catechism is public-domain, compact, and arranged in numbered questions. Older apologetic handbooks often contain memorable declarative sentences. By contrast, the CCC is organic and cross-referenced. Individual paragraphs frequently depend upon surrounding paragraphs.

That explains convenience, but no longer excuses poor practice. The CCC is freely available online, searchable, numbered, and hosted by both the Vatican and the USCCB. John Paul II promulgated it as a “sure norm for teaching the faith,” while later Vatican material calls it the Church’s sure and authentic reference text. (Vatican)

6. It is not universal even within Adventism​

Some Adventist publications do use the CCC correctly. An Amazing Facts edition of America in Bible Prophecy, for example, explicitly identifies the second edition of the CCC and cites paragraph numbers for its claims. (Manna)

So Adventists plainly know that the CCC exists and know how to cite it. The persistent use of older manuals in other material is therefore not merely ignorance. It is usually some mixture of:

  • inherited source lists;
  • editorial laziness;
  • preference for sharper quotations;
  • belief that preconciliar sources are more candid;
  • and the rhetorical usefulness of avoiding Catholic explanations of Catholic terminology.

The fair standard​

For present Catholic teaching, one should begin with the current CCC or its Compendium, then follow its references to councils, papal documents, canon law, or other magisterial sources.

For historical Catholic teaching, the Baltimore Catechism or another period source may be entirely appropriate, provided it is identified by date, jurisdiction, audience, and authority.

For a private Catholic author, one may say, “Leo Trese explained the doctrine this way.” One should not silently transform that into, “The Roman Catholic Church officially declares...”

So the recurring Adventist habit is not usually about finding the most authoritative statement of Catholic belief. It is about finding the most rhetorically useful Catholic-sounding sentence. Those are regrettably different enterprises.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
32,081
14,561
74
✟469,748.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Allow me to be honest. I don't really believe you. Perhaps there are SDAs who do. But my experience over the last 15 years has shown me that knowledge of non Seventh Day Adventist churches is exceptionally limited and small. I have seen brazen misrepresentation of non SDA sources; and never in the entire time I've been on Christian Forums have I ever seen a genuine even the tiniest attempt to learn.
Have you ever read the Catholic Catechism outside of an anti-Catholic, official Seventh Day Adventist source? Have you ever read the Book of Concord itself? Have you read any of the Confessional texts of the Presbyterians or Methodists?

I simply don't believe you when you say "We read written works from various denominations as part of our Bible study".

I do, however, believe that you probably get pre-packaged spoon-fed portions that serve the interests of your organization. But never a fully free-conscience act of reading material in its own proper context.

The gook is a commentary on the history of the Christian church from the time of Christ to today.

It is not a list of "because I said so' statements and is not of the form "here is a bunch of doctrines to believe"

Adventist practice is not to go read the book Great Controversy and have it tell you what doctrine to believe any more than any other Christian commentary on Christian history be expected to include Christian teaching.
A scholarly commentary will cite the passages it is commenting upon. Thus, standard Bible commentaries cite the verses and passages for which they apply commentary, usually providing alternate views as part of the commentary.

I have not read THE GREAT CONTROVERSY, but am I correct in understanding that Mrs. White did not provide footnotes or endnotes citing her sources?
 
  • Useful
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
32,081
14,561
74
✟469,748.00
Faith
Non-Denom

That is the only official catechism of the Roman Catholic Church ( @bbbbbbb also linked to a copy of it hosted elsewhere, but this link takes you directly to the Vatican’s official website ).

This has been explained to you before.

So I asked chatGPT 5.6 Sol at the maximum Thinking setting “Why do Adventists use unofficial or local books about Roman Catholicism even when encouraged to refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church?”

The answer it generated:
Thank you!
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: The Liturgist