• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Dozens hospitalized with cyclosporiasis as cases of gastrointestinal illness spike in 31 states

Gunny

Remnant
Site Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,347
310
United States of America
✟126,890.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not all hippies and feminist are atheist. Your sister has a huge hate with Christian religion. It sounds like something bad happened to her in the church. Or some church person turned her against God. There's a lot of hypocrites in church. Hippies are free spirits, happy and with life. I don't see them being keeping their kids away from religions. Atheist might not practice religion. But I've known Atheist allow their kids to go to church, with a friend. Some Atheist even put their kids in Catholic or Christian school.
Not all hippies and feminist are atheist. Your sister has a huge hate with Christian religion. It sounds like something bad happened to her in the church. Or some church person turned her against God. There's a lot of hypocrites in church. Hippies are free spirits, happy and with life. I don't see them being keeping their kids away from religions. Atheist might not practice religion. But I've known Atheist allow their kids to go to church, with a friend. Some Atheist even put their kids in Catholic or Christian school.
My sister was an outstanding English teacher for many years. Unfortunately, she married an atheist that was an outstanding math teacher. After a year of marriage my sister had a catatonic episode at the age of twenty. She ended up in a mental hospital that kept her for a month which included shock treatments that were designed to treat her severe depression. I love my sister. I don't have many blood kin left.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: DaisyDay
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
31,367
17,802
Here
✟1,647,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It looks like it's best to grow your own food. Until our government cares about our food safety. I'm guessing meat will be next to make people sick.
The issue is in this instance was imported foods...we can inspect everything domestically 10 times over, if we're going to allow imports from countries that are less rigorous, short of doing expensive testing on every single head of lettuce that comes from Mexico to the US, doesn't sound like much could have prevented this in terms of US regulatory efforts.

I'll see if I can dig up the one local news article about it (there's been several, since Ohio has been one of the harder hit states)

Basically, the lettuce was coming from central Mexico (FDA and US Health inspectors don't have eyes on that the same way they would for a domestic operation)

Contamination causing this pathogen comes from human feces. To put it bluntly, the speculation in the article was that it was either a case where the farm hands were dropping their drawers and "relieving themselves" there in the field rather than using a bathroom facility (perhaps due to poor labor conditions and worker protections in that part of Mexico), or that the water treatment infrastructure in the area wasn't doing such a good job with the "treatment" part, and sewage was finding its way into the irrigation water.


That said, it sounds like a large number of people impacted were the result of eating at Taco Bell (though a few said they got it elsewhere)

If there's a silver lining, it's that it'll make more people think twice before eating fast food (which people shouldn't be eating regularly anyway...especially taco bell lol...pretty sure explosive "Hershey squirts" was a normal part of the process anyway)

 
  • Haha
Reactions: Gunny
Upvote 0

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
Site Supporter
May 12, 2011
10,690
11,457
PA
✟526,755.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
The issue is in this instance was imported foods...we can inspect everything domestically 10 times over, if we're going to allow imports from countries that are less rigorous, short of doing expensive testing on every single head of lettuce that comes from Mexico to the US, doesn't sound like much could have prevented this in terms of US regulatory efforts.

I'll see if I can dig up the one local news article about it (there's been several, since Ohio has been one of the harder hit states)

Basically, the lettuce was coming from central Mexico (FDA and US Health inspectors don't have eyes on that the same way they would for a domestic operation)
1. Supposedly (if you believe the FDA) the test was a false positive, so we don't actually know where the contaminated produce originated.

2. Food packaged in other countries for sale in the US still has to meet the same food safety standards as food packaged in the US, and facilities can be inspected by the FDA or USDA. Imported foods are further randomly tested at the port of entry. What has changed recently is that major cuts to those agencies have resulted in significant reductions in staff and/or funding available for inspections.

 
  • Informative
Reactions: DaisyDay
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
31,367
17,802
Here
✟1,647,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
1. Supposedly (if you believe the FDA) the test was a false positive, so we don't actually know where the contaminated produce originated.

2. Food packaged in other countries for sale in the US still has to meet the same food safety standards as food packaged in the US, and facilities can be inspected by the FDA or USDA. Imported foods are further randomly tested at the port of entry. What has changed recently is that major cuts to those agencies have resulted in significant reductions in staff and/or funding available for inspections.

They've also stressed that a false positive doesn't clear Taylor Farms, and all signs still point to them

Your reporting has frequently mentioned Taylor Farms. Has cyclospora been traced back to any produce not produced by that company?

Caroline Hopkins Legaspi:
As of now, no. But we can’t interpret that to mean that other products are in the clear. Traceback investigations are very difficult and time consuming, and we may be looking at a number of disparate cyclospora outbreaks with different sources. There’s strong epidemiological evidence linking the Midwest-centered outbreak to iceberg lettuce that Taylor Farms sourced from central Mexico.




As far as #2, while on paper they have to meet the same standards, actual enforcement and inspection frequency/protocol differ greatly.


1784731300136.png


Couple of obvious challenges and caveats.

Obviously the logistics, it's easier to get to domestic facilities distance wise.

The other is the random/unannounced nature of the domestic inspections (that can happen at anytime without warning) keeps companies on their toes so to speak.

The same can't happen for international inspections unless you're working with a very friendly cooperative (non-corrupt) government.

We can't send inspectors secretly into a foreign land (in their official capacity) without entities from the other country getting notified.

In the US a domestic facilities could have the "suits" show up without warning at 3pm today for a surprise inspection that they didn't know was coming, so their stuff better be in order. Non-domestically, that's not possible for all countries.

We can likely work something out with a nation like Canada to let their government now "Hey, we've got some FDA fellas heading in to inspect that food canning facility to make sure everything's up to snuff... don't let them know we're coming", and they'd likely comply - or we could just flat out trust their own internal inspector reports which are probably even stricter than ours and rubber stamp it.

That's not going to be true of a country like Mexico. Too much money changing hands and too much corruption at multiple levels of government down there, the idea that we'd be able to show up for a surprise inspection without someone down there finding out about it well in advance in order to "tidy up before the guests arrive" isn't going to be realistic in a lot of cases.



Mexico is disproportionately represented in terms of their footprint regarding imported food outbreak situations.

Information was available on the region of origin for 177 (91%) outbreaks. Latin America and the Caribbean was the most common region implicated, followed by Asia (Technical Appendix). Thirty-one countries were implicated; Mexico was most frequently implicated (42 outbreaks). Other countries associated with >10 outbreaks were Indonesia (n = 17) and Canada (n = 11).
 
  • Informative
Reactions: DaisyDay
Upvote 0

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
Site Supporter
May 12, 2011
10,690
11,457
PA
✟526,755.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
They've also stressed that a false positive doesn't clear Taylor Farms, and all signs still point to them
I'm aware.
As far as #2, while on paper they have to meet the same standards, actual enforcement and inspection frequency/protocol differ greatly.


View attachment 381658
Number of inspections is a meaningless statistic - I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that there are far more domestic food facilities than there are foreign facilities importing to the US.
Couple of obvious challenges and caveats.

Obviously the logistics, it's easier to get to domestic facilities distance wise.

The other is the random/unannounced nature of the domestic inspections (that can happen at anytime without warning) keeps companies on their toes so to speak.

The same can't happen for international inspections unless you're working with a very friendly cooperative (non-corrupt) government.

We can't send inspectors secretly into a foreign land (in their official capacity) without entities from the other country getting notified.

In the US a domestic facilities could have the "suits" show up without warning at 3pm today for a surprise inspection that they didn't know was coming, so their stuff better be in order. Non-domestically, that's not possible for all countries.
Those are certainly potential challenges, but unless you have some insight into how the process actually works, I would be hesitant to speak so authoritatively on it. For example, they could (and, I believe, do) hire 3rd-party auditors rather than flying US government officials out.

Mexico is disproportionately represented in terms of their footprint regarding imported food outbreak situations.

Information was available on the region of origin for 177 (91%) outbreaks. Latin America and the Caribbean was the most common region implicated, followed by Asia (Technical Appendix). Thirty-one countries were implicated; Mexico was most frequently implicated (42 outbreaks). Other countries associated with >10 outbreaks were Indonesia (n = 17) and Canada (n = 11).
Notably, that article only covers data up to 2014. The FDA wasn't empowered to enforce US food safety standards on foreign producers until the Food Safety Modernization Act of 2011 - which the article points out:
New rules under the Food Safety Modernization Act of 2011, including the Preventive Controls Rule for Human Food, Produce Safety Rule, Foreign Supplier Verification Program, and Accreditation of Third Party Auditors, will help to strengthen the safety of imported foods by granting FDA enhanced authorities to require that imported foods meet the same safety standards as foods produced domestically
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
31,367
17,802
Here
✟1,647,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Those are certainly potential challenges, but unless you have some insight into how the process actually works, I would be hesitant to speak so authoritatively on it. For example, they could (and, I believe, do) hire 3rd-party auditors rather than flying US government officials out.

It sounds like it's on the importer to a larger degree than it domestic situations in order to try to fill the gaps left by the FDA not being able to inspect every foreign food facility we're buying from.

But the corruption issues would still come into play.

Even if you found what you thought was a reputable inspector/auditor, with some countries, you never really know.


Like if I was planning on importing some carrots from Canada, and I found food inspection contracting org in Ontario that's accredited by their provincial/city governments, I can feel pretty confident that any inspection reports are on the up & up, and that the likelihood of the inspector being "juiced in" with the local city government or having some sort of shady financial kickback situation with the facility owner is going to be relatively low. That's not going to be true for all countries.

There are some areas where it's a really possibility that a food/health inspector is "on the take" or is pressured to sweep things under the rug to make sure the facility doesn't get shutdown because someone "important" (whether it be in government or in organized crime...or both) has a stake in it

It's not a coincidence that the region that's had the worst track record on this happens to be the region where the corruption is higher.

If you saw the stats before in the other link
The Indonesian fish industry actually has a less egregious track record on this than the Latin American farm/produce industry.
 
Upvote 0

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
Site Supporter
May 12, 2011
10,690
11,457
PA
✟526,755.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat

It sounds like it's on the importer to a larger degree than it domestic situations in order to try to fill the gaps left by the FDA not being able to inspect every foreign food facility we're buying from.

But the corruption issues would still come into play.

Even if you found what you thought was a reputable inspector/auditor, with some countries, you never really know.


Like if I was planning on importing some carrots from Canada, and I found food inspection contracting org in Ontario that's accredited by their provincial/city governments, I can feel pretty confident that any inspection reports are on the up & up, and that the likelihood of the inspector being "juiced in" with the local city government or having some sort of shady financial kickback situation with the facility owner is going to be relatively low. That's not going to be true for all countries.
If you read up on the subject, you'll find that the FDA has a 3rd-party auditor certification process.

I'm not saying that the system is perfect, or that it's not subject to corruption (guess what - the same is true of the US food inspection system; I have a friend who works in the industry, and he's got some stories). I'm just pointing out that your "Hurr durr, there's nothing we can do about this because it's in dirty Mexico!" act is specious.
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

Perfect in every way.
Jul 14, 2015
16,894
10,204
53
✟445,239.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Your sister has a huge hate with Christian religion. It sounds like something bad happened to her in the church. Or some church person turned her against God.
I know this is not the point of the topic but this some people simply are not convinced by the the claims of the Bible and were never Christian in the first place.
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
31,367
17,802
Here
✟1,647,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
If you read up on the subject, you'll find that the FDA has a 3rd-party auditor certification process.

I'm not saying that the system is perfect, or that it's not subject to corruption (guess what - the same is true of the US food inspection system; I have a friend who works in the industry, and he's got some stories). I'm just pointing out that your "Hurr durr, there's nothing we can do about this because it's in dirty Mexico!" act is specious.
So what would be your proposal? (throw infinite amounts of money at it, or try to tie to some sort of cutbacks made by a member of the Trump admin to serve a broader narrative isn't the sort of thing I'm looking for)

Given that this happens disproportionally in Mexican and Central American imports compared to the stuff we get imported from Canada, Europe, and Asia - and that same pattern was true long before this current admin - means there's clearly something unique happening or some sort of breakdown in the chain.

A third party auditor certification process isn't necessarily the "shield" people may think it is, it only proves

FSVP requires importers to verify their foreign suppliers, and on-site auditing is one permitted method, but the rule only requires a "qualified auditor", not anyone who's actually an FDA accredited inspector in the same way a domestic inspector would be.

Given how corrupt the business and regulatory climate is in Mexico and Central America, how do you the auditor you're working with down there is a strict no-nonsense guy who calls balls & strikes, vs. someone who has an "in" with the people who run the facility and are willing to rubber stamp things if the money is right?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
Site Supporter
May 12, 2011
10,690
11,457
PA
✟526,755.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
So what would be your proposal? (throw infinite amounts of money at it, or try to tie to some sort of cutbacks made by a member of the Trump admin to serve a broader narrative isn't the sort of thing I'm looking for)
Why must I provide a proposal? You made incorrect statements. I corrected them.
Given that this happens disproportionally in Mexican and Central American imports compared to the stuff we get imported from Canada, Europe, and Asia - and that same pattern was true long before this current admin - means there's clearly something unique happening or some sort of breakdown in the chain.

A third party auditor certification process isn't necessarily the "shield" people may think it is, it only proves

FSVP requires importers to verify their foreign suppliers, and on-site auditing is one permitted method, but the rule only requires a "qualified auditor", not anyone who's actually an FDA accredited inspector in the same way a domestic inspector would be.

Given how corrupt the business and regulatory climate is in Mexico and Central America, how do you the auditor you're working with down there is a strict no-nonsense guy who calls balls & strikes, vs. someone who has an "in" with the people who run the facility and are willing to rubber stamp things if the money is right?
This is turning into a classic Gish Gallop. Neither you nor I has the required time or expertise to dive into the intricacies of food safety certification.
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
31,367
17,802
Here
✟1,647,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Neither you nor I has the required time or expertise to dive into the intricacies of food safety certification.
Do you have to be an expert on every single intricacy to be able to detect something's wrong with simple pattern detection?

"Hey we work with 39 different entities for this, and over a quarter of <insert issue here> problems comes from this one single entity, what's unique about this one entity?"


I don't know the intricacies of the internal combustion engine either, but if GM has more cases of engines blowing up than the next 10 automakers combined, I know "There's a GM problem"
 
Upvote 0

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
Site Supporter
May 12, 2011
10,690
11,457
PA
✟526,755.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Do you have to be an expert on every single intricacy to be able to detect something's wrong with simple pattern detection?

"Hey we work with 39 different entities for this, and over a quarter of <insert issue here> problems comes from this one single entity, what's unique about this one entity?"


I don't know the intricacies of the internal combustion engine either, but if GM has more cases of engines blowing up than the next 10 automakers combined, I know "There's a GM problem"
When the data you have to support that is over a decade old, it's hard to draw any meaningful conclusions.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Fact-Based Lifeform
Oct 17, 2011
49,299
51,587
Los Angeles Area
✟1,147,704.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)

Cyclosporiasis outbreak has affected about 1 in every 1,000 people in Michigan

More than 10,000 cases have been reported in Michigan during the outbreak investigation period, according to the state health department. The state is home to about 10.1 million people.

“We do have the outbreak under control,” US Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. said last week, noting the recall.

But illness can take a while to appear, and thousands of new cases were reported nationwide over the past week.

The CDC has identified more than 18,000 cases of domestic cyclosporiasis this season; 6,707 cases are confirmed, and about 11,500 others are undergoing further laboratory testing and analysis to determine whether the illness was acquired in the US.

According to a 2023 report from the US Department of Agriculture’s Food Safety Inspection Service, the largest cyclospora outbreak in the US on record [up to that point] led to about 1,500 cases and involved raspberries.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

re Member
Aug 28, 2007
29,315
20,807
Colorado
✟587,922.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Youd think that with the degrading of food safety and public health enforcement that libertarian principles would emerge to make us all even safer than before?

Or perhaps this is just the last trailing result of food safety statism - and we need to move even quicker toward regulatory liberty?
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
31,367
17,802
Here
✟1,647,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Youd think that with the degrading of food safety and public health enforcement that libertarian principles would emerge to make us all even safer than before?

Or perhaps this is just the last trailing result of food safety statism - and we need to move even quicker toward regulatory liberty?

It would seem as if there's still some enforcement and regulatory oversight.

A recall was just issued for a bunch of bacon from Canada

Not even because there was any confirmed illness, but simply because it didn't get re-inspected upon entry (but it did go through the full Canadian inspection process)


If it were me, I'd be focusing more of the finite time and resources on inspecting foods sourced from countries that have weaker (or more potentially corrupt) domestic inspection regimes. In the case of Canada, their food (and food safety) standards are higher than ours, so I'd be okay with redirecting half of the inspection staff currently at the Northern Border, down to the Southern Border, and pre-approving most packaged/sealed goods coming in from Canada.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

re Member
Aug 28, 2007
29,315
20,807
Colorado
✟587,922.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
It would seem as if there's still some enforcement and regulatory oversight.
Its a big swamp for one little DOGE to drain.

....If it were me, I'd be focusing more of the finite time and resources on inspecting foods sourced from countries that have weaker (or more potentially corrupt) domestic inspection regimes. In the case of Canada, their food (and food safety) standards are higher than ours, so I'd be okay with redirecting half of the inspection staff currently at the Northern Border, down to the Southern Border, and pre-approving most packaged/sealed goods coming in from Canada.
Seems reasonable. But I think its politically harder to announce a specific enforcement stand down than to just slowly starve the whole system of resources across the board.
 
Upvote 0