Catholic Marriage

I'm curious as to whether a Catholic priest actually told you this was the case, or if you've done a bit of research and assumed your findings are correct?

Your background is a bit like mine, although I was not Catholic until I made the decision to ;join the church.

My father was an atheist Catholic (raised in the Catholic church but lost his faith). My mother was a nominal Anglican. They married in a Presbyterian Church in 1953 as back then the rules were strict regarding Catholics and non-Catholics marrying (this was pre-Vatican II).

I don't have proof but I suspect my mother sweet talked the pastor into marrying them as the Presbyterian Church was right behind the department store where she worked.

I think the pastor who married them wanted a quid pro quo, and any offspring were to be baptised Presbyterian. So I was baptised Presbyterian, and my sister who was six years younger was not baptised at all. My parents probably thought it wasn't important by that time.

But she had herself baptised some time before she died in 2005.

In the religious sense, our family was like a microcosm of modern Western Christendom - more mixed up than scrambled eggs.

My wife and I married in a Baptist Church, but I later became Catholic. As far as I'm aware our marriage is considered valid by the Catholic Church as it was in a Trinitarian Church. I suspect state marriages at the registry office would not be recognised.

If you're worried about it, talk to a priest.

With all due respect, it looks like your family is like mine was - a microcosm of modern Western Christendom.

I remember my old Presbyterian pastor said to me once "When it comes to theology, Protestants couldn't agree how far to spit!" and he was protestant.

Then we wonder why Christianity is struggling in the West.

It's not 'their' rules but Jesus' rules. It's His Church.

It would matter if you wanted to practice the Catholic Faith.

Malleeboy said:

Dad was nominal Catholic, mum a slightly less nominal Methodist, they were married in an Anglican service. My dad didn't care but my mum having had an Anglican wedding and feeling kids should have their Dad's faith had my sister and I baptized Catholics. However they never attended church and separated then divorced at 6 months, my mum then raises us kids loosely as Protestants. We come to actual faith in Christ at a Church of Christ, become committed Christian, married my committed Christian in a Christian wedding, and have been in a covenantal christian marriage (ie not a contract but a Christ centered marriage)

However the reason for the post is I have discovered that the Catholic church considers me a Catholic, and my marriage as somehow not fully valid, cause I breached their rules which I could never have learnt or known about. Not that it greatly concerns me but can somehow explain why the catholic church ever expected me to know or follow their rules?

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One is considered a Catholic if baptized a Catholic. And Catholics, in order to be married, must have a valid Catholic ceremony. The sacraments are taken very seriously. A priest would know the specifics of potentially validating the marriage in the eyes of the Church, and I believe there is no requirement to change your religious beliefs.

Malleeboy said:

Thanks for the reply.

https://saintcecilia.org/legally-married
This page seems to imply that it would take a wedding ceremony (even if not called that), which would imply that your church doesn't think I'm married now?

I don't know any priests, but I might see if I can ask a priest where I work, just for curiosity sake.

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The Church sets up rules as to the validity of the seven sacraments. The consecration of the Holy Eucharist, for example, must be done by a properly ordained priest with specific words. A Baptism must be done with certain words, and I can think of one where religion where even though those words are used it is not considered a valid Baptism. For a Catholic, a marriage must take place in front of a priest unless there is a special dispensation. The Church recognizes the legality of a civil marriage under laws of countries around the world, but for a baptized Catholic without the priest or dispensation it is, in the eyes of the Church, not a sacramental marriage. Finally, yes, for those seeking a sacramental marriage recognized by the Catholic Church, there is a quite short ceremony, usually private with the priest and a couple of witnesses in a church. For the Catholic Church it's a matter of the offering of a sacrament to take place for those who desire the sacraments within the Church. In a marriage the sacrament of marriage in conferred upon each other by each other, the priest is simply a witness.

Malleeboy said:

And from what I understand baptism cannot annulled or removed as it is indelible mark, even if my Protestant mum would have had no real idea or understanding of the rules and neither did/do I.

OK this is now hypothetical, but what would be the case if I were to return to be Catholic but my wife stayed protestant and didn't want to the con-validation??

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There would still be a possible path. There are Catholic requirements for marriage, those would have to be met and examined even if one party wanted nothing to do with a convalidation ceremony. Convalidation is the norm, but the bishop can give special permission.

Malleeboy said:

OK this is now hypothetical, but what would be the case if I were to return to be Catholic but my wife stayed protestant and didn't want to the con-validation??

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This would not be very hard to remedy, and in all likelihood the issue would never even come up. If the issue does come up, the remedy is called "radical sanation," which is the convalidation of an invalid marriage without the renewal of consent, and this would retroactively apply to your marriage vows. The more general issue is a matter of Church law that was tweaked as recently as 2009. The law is not intended to make it difficult for returning Catholics who married outside the Church. It is in place for other reasons, some of which are purely practical.

Malleeboy said:

so I presume that may count as formal renunciation??

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Maybe. One of the reasons Pope Benedict XVI made the change in 2009 is because it was so hard to come to agreement on what counts as a formal renunciation.

But at the end of the day I wouldn't lose any sleep over this. Your situation is one that is extremely common, and which is accommodated regularly.

Malleeboy said:

Dad was nominal Catholic, mum a slightly less nominal Methodist, they were married in an Anglican service. My dad didn't care but my mum having had an Anglican wedding and feeling kids should have their Dad's faith had my sister and I baptized Catholics. However they never attended church and separated then divorced when I was 6 months old, my mum then raises us kids loosely as Protestants. We come to actual faith in Christ at a Church of Christ, become committed Christian, married my committed Christian in a Christian wedding, and have been in a covenantal christian marriage (ie not a contract but a Christ centered marriage)

However the reason for the post is I have discovered that the Catholic church considers me a Catholic, and my marriage as somehow not fully valid, cause I breached their rules which I could never have learnt or known about. Not that it greatly concerns me but can somehow explain why the catholic church ever expected me to know or follow their rules?

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Yes all baptisms, if done according to the correct (and widely practiced formula: water, "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit") all baptisms are ultimately Catholic. But because your parents didn't raise you Catholic there are mitigating factors to your culpability in this case. Meaning you aren't really held responsible in the same way as if you had been raised Catholic and properly formed in the faith to have known these things.

This is something that would only come up though if you and/or your wife wanted to become Catholic. Yes, you were baptized but you never received your other Sacraments (confirmation and first communion) so you were never fully initiated into the Church anyway. Your marriage would likely be considered valid though because you weren't catechized so you truly didn't know of a Catholic's obligation to have a Church wedding.

If that were to happen you could have your marriage convalidated in the Church provided that neither of you have been married before. If either of you have been previously married that spouse would have to petition the tribunal for an annulment and see whether their previous marriage was valid or not. If it wasn't then it's just a matter of receiving a declaration of nullity from the tribunal and then convalidating your marriage.

Malleeboy said:

And from what I understand baptism cannot annulled or removed as it is indelible mark, even if my Protestant mum would have had no real idea or understanding of the rules and neither did/do I.

OK this is now hypothetical, but what would be the case if I were to return to be Catholic but my wife stayed protestant and didn't want to the con-validation??

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You could still complete your sacraments and enter the Church, again, provided that neither of you have a divorce hanging over your heads. If you do that means your marriage now is invalid and sinful and a person can't enter the Church in a state of mortal sin. When you receive your confirmation you affirm Church teachings, you renounce certain things, and if you're in a state of sin you'd be lying which would render your confirmation invalid. However, if neither of you were married before then that's not an issue, and you could become Catholic even if your wife won't.

As with any Sacrament, to be valid requires proper matter, form, and intention. With Marriage these are:

1. Proper matter (one baptized man and one baptized woman consenting to the Sacrament
2. Proper form (The wedding vows, a free mutual consent from each)
3. Proper intention (permanence, fidelity, free, and fruitfulness)