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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
7thKeeper
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Oh better yet, attacked Iran as they were agreeing to some of the strictest/harshest terms of the deal being brokered. Now can't have an actual deal being made, now can we?
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Bradskii
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Well, not by Trump. Not when the original agreement was made by Barak HUSSEIN Obama.
I was then going to write 'How is possible to compare two men like the current president and Obama?' But it's not conceivably possible. They don't even belong in the same sentence as each other (which is why I edited what I originally wrote to read 'the current president' as opposed to 'Trump').
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Laodicean60
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Bradskii
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It helps. But a lot of people can't simply vent and then everything is OK. Those that are struggling to get through to the next pay cheque find the extra costs due to this dumb war depressingly difficult. Rather than Trump making it easier to put food on the table as he promised he would from Day 1, it's quite simply, and undeniable more difficult.
I simply don't understand how the fatuous arguments and flat out lies from this administration are still being accepted by those who voted for Trump. It's not that he found himself in a tricky situation from a previous admin that was going to be difficult to solve. He caused the problem himself by ripping up the previous agreement and then attacking Iran. I'm pretty certain that his military advisors aren't totally incompetent so he obviously ignored their advice and now he's in a hole that he can't get out of.
Get rid of him, for heaven's sake.
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Hans Blaster
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We are two weeks from an auspicious day on the Presidential calendar. Perhaps we can get a repeat 52 years later. (Fat chance)
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Bradskii
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And that is probably his only option now. From here: US pauses Iran attacks for second night after Trump advised to halt bombing
'The US has paused strikes on Iran for a second night as top military officials advised Donald Trump to halt his bombing campaign, and diplomatic negotiations have continued to avoid a return to all-out war.
Senior officials in the Trump administration are reported to have told the president about dwindling munitions stockpiles that could hamper a sustained military campaign in the region.
Axios reported on Sunday that Adm Bradley Cooper, the top US military commander in the region, had told Trump the US military campaign had reached the limits of its effectiveness.'
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Laodicean60
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This is true; they allow it to rent space in their minds, then they move on to party factions. I'm seeing both parties in my country splitting,
and I will be watching NY; I won't pass judgment until I see it with my eyes. One problem is that in America, corporations and rich people can move to other states.
I know it depends on the area, but the CPI has been trending downward ever since 2022 except for the recent war.
| Percent change from 12 months ago | ||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2016 | 1.4 | 1.0 | 0.9 | 1.1 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 1.1 | 1.5 | 1.6 | 1.7 | 2.1 |
| 2017 | 2.5 | 2.7 | 2.4 | 2.2 | 1.9 | 1.6 | 1.7 | 1.9 | 2.2 | 2.0 | 2.2 | 2.1 |
| 2018 | 2.1 | 2.2 | 2.4 | 2.5 | 2.8 | 2.9 | 2.9 | 2.7 | 2.3 | 2.5 | 2.2 | 1.9 |
| 2019 | 1.6 | 1.5 | 1.9 | 2.0 | 1.8 | 1.6 | 1.8 | 1.7 | 1.7 | 1.8 | 2.1 | 2.3 |
| 2020 | 2.5 | 2.3 | 1.5 | 0.3 | 0.1 | 0.6 | 1.0 | 1.3 | 1.4 | 1.2 | 1.2 | 1.4 |
| 2021 | 1.4 | 1.7 | 2.6 | 4.2 | 5.0 | 5.4 | 5.4 | 5.3 | 5.4 | 6.2 | 6.8 | 7.0 |
| 2022 | 7.5 | 7.9 | 8.5 | 8.3 | 8.6 | 9.1 | 8.5 | 8.3 | 8.2 | 7.7 | 7.1 | 6.5 |
| 2023 | 6.4 | 6.0 | 5.0 | 4.9 | 4.0 | 3.0 | 3.2 | 3.7 | 3.7 | 3.2 | 3.1 | 3.4 |
| 2024 | 3.1 | 3.2 | 3.5 | 3.4 | 3.3 | 3.0 | 2.9 | 2.5 | 2.4 | 2.6 | 2.7 | 2.9 |
| 2025 | 3.0 | 2.8 | 2.4 | 2.3 | 2.4 | 2.7 | 2.7 | 2.9 | 3.0 | 2.7 | 2.7 | |
| 2026 | 2.4 | 2.4 | 3.3 | 3.8 | 4.2 | 3.5 | ||||||
| Footnotes (1) Data unavailable due to the 2025 lapse in appropriations |
Maybe he had this plan all along, but Biden ruined it by getting elected. The JCPOA was effective, and even with this, I support Trump's attack on Iran.
Yes, dwindling supplies- I believe it, but we always resupply, and the fleet will never allow itself to be in harm's way. How can Cooper say that? We still have our biggest target, Pick Axe Mountain, and it's going to take our biggest bombs. It's going to be massive, as Trump says it.
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Bradskii
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Yeah, that'll come as a complete surprise to the Iranians. From here: What Is Pickaxe Mountain, Iran’s Underground Nuclear Site That Trump Is Threatening?
'Trump had previously threatened the Iranian facility during a July 13 podcast interview when he declared: “We're going to take out Pickaxe Mountain. Tell the Iranians to be ready."
In June last year, the U.S. joined Israel in launching strikes on three key Iranian nuclear sites—an action Trump said had “completely and totally obliterated” the targeted facilities.'
So I guess he's going to completely and totally obliterate them again. And then declare that the war has been won. For the 40th time. At what point are you going go say to yourself 'Well, maybe he's not telling us the truth'.
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Laodicean60
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I understand propaganda. I've been hearing all sides for the last 3 years. Everyone is winning win you ask them.
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well turn it around to as is would the uk and allies have won ww2 without out The USA ?
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Stopped_lurking
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Interesting question It would very much depend which point of divergence you choose. If the US would still have been part of the british empire, then I am not even sure WW2 would have had the same belligerents. But assuming that the british had access to the same manufacturing capacity as the US had at the time then I think the allies still would have won.
If the continent simply didn't exist, history would be very different. I suspect that the rest of the world would be very different.
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Laodicean60
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Still on Trump, I see. Look, I spent two years here in Biden's term listening to R call him a liar, and now it's liberl/ socialist turn. I know they are both liars, but we can't seem to admit it. We are talking about war, and what Trump says may or may not be true about it, just like Zelensky, Putin, and the nut cases in Iran. So yes, it is propaganda; I do believe we've degraded the military and nuclear program.
After the war, or if this goes longer than six months, I'm out because this conversation is all about Trump.
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That reminds me of a chat back in the late 80s regarding an episode of Star Trek: TNG in which Picard had taken a particularly ardent atheistic stance toward a being worshiped by the inhabitants of a less developed planet.
I found myself on the same side of the debate as a Wiccan.
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I sense there will be a continuing distrust of America because it was possible for Trump to be elected.
And that's a sense among many American black people, as well. We are not going to return to the 1990s sense of reliable progress in my remaining lifetime.
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Bradskii
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A couple of my wife's sisters came down to visit us last year. One of them with her husband in tow (their son has been in Australia for a while so they took the opportunity to catch up with him). They all live in the same town as my wife and I grew up in. And they still have the same conservative, small town mindset that Mrs Bradskii and I grew up with. We left home when we were 21 and headed off to work in London (followed by quite a few other places). And it was quite a culture shock to us. Beliefs and attitudes gradually changed. The old prejudices faded. We became different people.
There were times over a couple of drinks or across the dining table when one our visitors would casually say something that was blatantly racist. And I'd be staring down at my drink, saying nothing. And I absolutely knew that if I looked up then I'd see my wife's eyes boring into me. And that stare spoke volumes. Condensed down to: 'Do not say anything. We were like this. This would be us had we remained. We got lucky. They're good people. It's not their fault'.
I keep trying to think the same about the US. That it's not your fault. That you're all good people. But Trump makes that so depressingly hard to do.
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Black people in the US have what term the "N***** wake-up call." It's when we've forgotten a bit what and where we are and something happens in a moment or something is said to us that abruptly reminds us.
I got one in the months after Obama's election as I saw white people I'd known for years--decades, as far back as the early 70s--change like werewolves before my eyes.
I had thought that the Boomer generation was the transition generation, the generation of changed minds and attitudes toward the future.
I learned that we are actually the last Jim Crow generation, the last generation of children steeped in segregation, and "as the sapling is bent, so grows the tree."
I realize now that to rise from where we were would take at least the end of the Boomer saeculum, and from where we are now to the end of the Millennial saeculum. I should have always realized it.
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Bradskii
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We didn't do enough. And by 'we' I mean me and mine - the boomers who grew up within racist and misogynistic societies. I grew up thinking that my parents were the best of people. My mother was a saint. But I learned my racism and homophobia from them. I only changed when I moved out of that small home town bubble. And I thought it would all change as I changed. And it did. Except for a lot of people who stayed, physically and mentally, inside that original bubble.
I'll call out racism whenever it occurs. Overtly. But the casual racism of my sister-in-law? No, don't start an argument. Keep quiet. They can't help it. 'It's not their fault'. Well, I agree. But it's a fault in me in not taking them to task about it. Pointing out the error of their ways. The fault is mine thinking that hey, stay cool, it's all going to turn out just fine.
A lot of us, including me, didn't do enough.
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A Christian needs to be aware of the Lord’s commandments towards their fellow human beings ( Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 7:12, per Matthew 7:1-12, Matthew 19:16-19 etc.). Solomon’s reminds us with his sensible conclusion to fear the Lord & keep His commandments ( Ecclesiastes 12:13-14). Solomon also instructed us on the ever changing human condition ( Ecclesiastes 3:1-9) whereas the Lord tells us to be wise as serpents, harmless as doves ( Matthew 10:16) in dealing with this. Alongside the added complications of natural disasters, life in the fallen world is complicated.
From what I have said above, I believe this is what is something that was lacking in wisdom, clarity etc. in Christianity in the western world ( not western Christianity per se). European mindsets run the extremes of delusion as either an imperialist monster or an almost self loathing that tries to love. Its Christianity reflected much of this in conformity to an imperialist past. Today it veers towards being milquetoast or secularist liberation ( anti traditional Christian) theology etc. in which God will love sinners into heaven over believers.
My Arabic Christian ancestors came to America as a refuge and belief of something better than anti Christian pogroms in Syria. My Puritan indentured servant ancestor ended up in early 17th century Connecticut trying to put Europe behind but Americans were unable to put the European insanity behind also ( I believe they tried hard in some ways though but the baggage was too much).
Speaking in extremely broad terms.
From what I have said above, I believe this is what is something that was lacking in wisdom, clarity etc. in Christianity in the western world ( not western Christianity per se). European mindsets run the extremes of delusion as either an imperialist monster or an almost self loathing that tries to love. Its Christianity reflected much of this in conformity to an imperialist past. Today it veers towards being milquetoast or secularist liberation ( anti traditional Christian) theology etc. in which God will love sinners into heaven over believers.
My Arabic Christian ancestors came to America as a refuge and belief of something better than anti Christian pogroms in Syria. My Puritan indentured servant ancestor ended up in early 17th century Connecticut trying to put Europe behind but Americans were unable to put the European insanity behind also ( I believe they tried hard in some ways though but the baggage was too much).
Speaking in extremely broad terms.
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