Have you got personal opinions and private interpretations of the holy scriptures for which you feel pride?

K2K said:

If other churches were not written to, and the Scriptures were written to us, then the other churches are not relevant to the writing!!!

Yes, God does personally teach us if we do listen to Him, but like most teachers today, He uses a textbook (The Bible) to teach us from!!! Of course the Lord, who made all things, does not only use the Scriptures but the Scriptures were inspired by Him for a purpose and since it is written that we will all be taught by God then He had a reason for what He had included and what He didn't include!!

And you wrote "not relevant to the churches today" which I took directly from your writings!

And as for your comment " Scripture provides moral edification"; that is not quite right. It is our Teacher, Jesus Christ, who instructs (Edify) us on moral issues! He does indeed use the Scriptures, but not just the Scriptures, and understanding, according to the Scriptures understanding comes from His voice, note His book. We study the Scriptures because they are good for teaching, by our Teacher right, for correction, from our Teacher right, and for reproof and instruction in righteousness by our Teacher right? The Bible without Jesus Christ as our Teacher does not lead us to righteousness!

So when I read something like:


It seems obvious that you are looking for the historical sources, like documents, that you are looking to instead of the Lord and what He says. It's not that we shouldn't look at historical soures and things like documents, but that for understanding and real knowledge about what we study requires actually seeking the Lord our God and listening to Him, just like it is written:

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

So yeah, we get information, and that includes study or things like the Bible, historical sources, documents, and more, but the wisdom for understanding, and knowledge comes from His "MOUTH" - WE HAVE TO LISTEN TO HIM!


Mark 9:7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”

From out of the Cloud (The Holy Spirit) comes the voice of the Lord our God, Jesus Christ (Who is our Teacher - if we listen to Him) and we have the command to "listen to Him".

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My specific words were:

“This is not to say that the churches mentioned in Revelation were not important, or that the warnings given to them are not relevant to the churches today” and then I went on to enumerate several of the ways in which the warnings were relevant.

Now, is it your belief that you were told by God that I had said that Revelation was not relevant? This is actually quite important, because St. Paul tells us to test every spirit, and we are warned in Scripture that Christ Himself will be impersonated, both by other humans and by demons appearing as an angel of light, so if you heard a voice saying “The Liturgist said Revelation is not relevant to the churches today” then that would be a matter of concern.

The Liturgist said:

My specific words were:

“This is not to say that the churches mentioned in Revelation were not important, or that the warnings given to them are not relevant to the churches today” and then I went on to enumerate several of the ways in which the warnings were relevant.

Now, is it your belief that you were told by God that I had said that Revelation was not relevant? This is actually quite important, because St. Paul tells us to test every spirit, and we are warned in Scripture that Christ Himself will be impersonated, both by other humans and by demons appearing as an angel of light, so if you heard a voice saying “The Liturgist said Revelation is not relevant to the churches today” then that would be a matter of concern.

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God did not tell me that you "had said that Revelation was not relevant!" That is what you wrote! I quoted it " ". Your position according to your own writing was that there were more than seven churches at the time, so it was not relevant that seven out of seven churches had the same problem. You seemed to think by your own writing that just because those seven churches had that problem, it was not relevant to churches today.

Now the Lord has talked to me in the past and recent past, that is not the case. He discussed with me; that while perhaps not every church has the problem it is a common problem and is extremely like that any church I go to has the problem of not letting those people at their church hear what the Spirit is saying to the church!!

Seven tends to represent a complete or full number, and so it was that seven churches were written to and while they are had very different situations and thus groups of people, there was a constant problem of not letting those who attended their church and who had ears to hear, actually hear what the Spirit had to say to the church!!!

Now this thread is on "personal opinions and private interpretations of the holy scriptures", so this topic is extremely applicable to the topic. If a Christian church, regardless of their traditions and practices, don't let their assembly listen to what the Spirit has to say to them concerning the church (private interpretations from the Lord our God via His Holy Spirit) then they are not actually following and paying attention to what is written in the Bible!!!!!! That happens because they don't feel the writings in the Bible is actually for them and might apply to them!!!!!

If believe this is the importance coming through in the OP!! And I see it at every single church I go to, and I will tell you ways that I see it!!

A very common way this comes across is that every church preaches the Bible as the Word of God instead of Jesus Christ!! That results is people not looking to the Lord our God and His voice speaking to them personally, but rather the Scriptures! And note clearly that the Scriptures do not explain the Scriptures are The Word of God but rather the Christ is the Word of God! That is His name! He was the Word of God from the beginning, even so that the words "Let there be light", were spoken from Him, the Christ who took on flesh, went to the cross, became our sacrifice and our salvation, so that we also call Him "Jesus", meaning God's salvation. Yet from the beginning He was The Word!! And we have a command, the foremost command, to listen to Him and hear what He tells us, each of us personally!!! So, He is the proper and correct Word of God whom we are preaching because He personally, and even privately, speaks to us.

The church is supposed to be leading others to Him, and encouraging others to hear from Him TODAY - but they generally do the opposite because the pride of men causes our preachers and teachers to try to be our 'Word of God' and experts on the Bible. So, they get up in front of the church, having gotten a degree with great study of the Scriptures but not a great relationship with the Lord, and lift up their Bible proclaiming they are going to "Preach The Word of God", but they are not talking about Jesus Christ being The Word of God. They are not telling people to listen to Him. They don't even let anyone other than themselves, now that they have the podium, speak a word from God. So, the Scriptures reprove them, but they don't accept in the reproof from the Scriptures but tend to deny it as not relevant!

Therefore I liked the topic of the OP, and believe it is an important one. I don't feel the OP explained it well enough and fell a bit short, but I do appreciate the OP and opinions there in. For example in the OP we read:

Xeno.of.athens said:

The Church encourages every believer to meditate on the Word of God in their own home

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Does the above quote mean we are to meditate on the Bible or meditate on what the Christ personally says to us??????

The correct answer to that should be to meditate on what Jesus Christ says to us via the Holy Spirit!! And that is because the Lord, if you indeed know Him, tends to talk to you about both the Scriptures and your personal life, and of the two He mostly talks to you about your personal life!!! And if indeed you do know Him you absolutely know that!!

Now also note that the churches in Revelation where actually not written to!! But rather the angel at those churches were written to!!! Which is to say that the spirit running that church, and all seven churches, was being strongly reproved by God through His Holy Spirit and then through John, and it was recorded and kept for our information!!

[Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.]
[Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.]

So, I would suggest the fullness of God reproves the fullness of the angels running the churches!! How is it at your church? And especially since the OP has "meditate on the Word of God in their own home." So not at church, right??? So is this a correct statement: 'Don't listen to The Word of God (Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit while at church, even if you have an ear to hear what the Spirit says, and especially if the Holy Spirit is telling you something about the church.'

That is not what we read about in the Bible. where we read Paul writing: 1 Cor 12:19 "And if they were all one member, where were the body?"
and also 1 Cor 14:31 "For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted." - Though Paul writes, 1 Cor 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order. So is that what we see when we have questions about personal interpretations and meditating on the Word at home, not in the church? And does The Word mean the Christ our Lord and Saviour (Jesus) or our Bible?

And one more thing concerning 'PRIDE'. Our PRIDE is what keeps us from seeking the voice of the Lord!!! Moses was a humble man but heard from the Lord more than any other during his time on earth. If anyone, including the preaching from the podiums, think they are smarter than the Lord so they don't have to listen to Him, that is a person thinking they are smarter that God Himself!!!! That is PRIDE!! So the problem I come up against at church are the people who not listening to Him because the their own personal pride, want to tell me I am not listening to Him, when I clearly do. There of course is the question of testing the spirits, but they don't test the spirits either because that requires hearing with their spiritual ears!!

1Jn 4:1-3 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

It is weird testing the spirits, like above. I hear so I often test and see if the spirit talking to me will confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, , and listen. I usually get the confirmation and confession, but sometimes the voice just leaves. Other times I have them tell me that they can tell me that. Other times they have suddenly gotten mad at me. Of times the curse the Lord before leaving.

If a person has pride, they are probably going to think they can discern the spirit by their own great thinking, so they won't test the spirits. I do test them, but I also know I need to do it more. So, I usually test the spirits only when something starts seeming wrong to me. Still mostly it is the Lord, partly because if I don't find a spirit who cannot confess Jesus Christ came in the flesh, I tend to bind them up and have them taken captive to Jesus Christ and it doesn't go well for them then. And also, the Lord's thoughts are not out thoughts!!! That is soooo true. So, trying to apply my thinking to discernment of spirits doesn't work well. So anyone thinking discernment of spirits is done with your thinking is into pride! Discernment is a gift from the Holy Spirit and that as a case by case situation, and not from your thinking! We need to listen to THE WORD OF GOD, Jesus Christ personally!!!

K2K said:

God did not tell me that you "had said that Revelation was not relevant!" That is what you wrote! I quoted it " ". Your position according to your own writing was that there were more than seven churches at the time, so it was not relevant that seven out of seven churches had the same problem. You seemed to think by your own writing that just because those seven churches had that problem, it was not relevant to churches today.

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Forgive me, but that was not my position.

My position, if you re-read my reply, is that:

1. There were more than seven churches in the ancient world.
2. That does not mean that the problems faced by the seven churches addressed in Refvelation are not relevant even now.
3. On the contrary they are.
4. I then proceeded to list specific examples of how the problems they faced, such as sexual perversion (specifically I referenced the Nicolaitan heresy) and lukewarm-ness are extremely urgent in many denominations.

K2K said:

It is weird testing the spirits, like above. I hear so I often test and see if the spirit talking to me will confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, , and listen. I usually get the confirmation and confession, but sometimes the voice just leaves. Other times I have them tell me that they can tell me that. Other times they have suddenly gotten mad at me. Of times the curse the Lord before leaving.

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If a spirit made the accusation that I had said the warnings to the seven churches in Revelation were not relevant to churches today, then it was a demon that was lying to you.

Nonetheless, the fact you are experiencing this is a particular cross to bear, and I do respect you test them; I am thankful to not have had to deal with that personally.

The Liturgist said:

Forgive me, but that was not my position.

My position, if you re-read my reply, is that:

1. There were more than seven churches in the ancient world.
2. That does not mean that the problems faced by the seven churches addressed in Refvelation are not relevant even now.
3. On the contrary they are.
4. I then proceeded to list specific examples of how the problems they faced, such as sexual perversion (specifically I referenced the Nicolaitan heresy) and lukewarm-ness are extremely urgent in many denominations.

If a spirit made the accusation that I had said the warnings to the seven churches in Revelation were not relevant to churches today, then it was a demon that was lying to you.

Nonetheless, the fact you are experiencing this is a particular cross to bear, and I do respect you test them; I am thankful to not have had to deal with that personally.

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What you are missing is that all our problems come from not listening to the Lord!!!! And that includes all the problems in churches.

So when I pointed out that all seven churches is Revelation were keeping people from hearing from the Lord, you wanted to express that was not relevant to the other churches and their problems also!! So you wanted to point out different issues without making the connection! You completely failed to connect the issue we have as people, and that is the issue that Adam and Eve had, which was not listening to the Lord.

Now you wanted to turn to the problem of 'sexual perversion'. Why causes that problem, and even in churches???

What causes it is not listening to the Lord. When Adam and Eve didn't listen to the Lord suddenly they realize they were naked! So don't you see that you are missing the connection and importance of each of us connecting to and listening to the Lord personally??? The sexual perversion is not the specific problem, not listening to Him personally is the specific problem, or do you really think He won't bring that up and try to help you when you actually talk to Him? So the "sexual perversion" which you want to label as some type of "Nicolaitan heresy" is an indication that people don't listen to Him, and that from the churches (all of them in one way or another) keeping people from listening to the Lord instead of encouraging them to listen to the Lord.

You completely missed the relevance of what is pointed out in all seven churches being written to having the same problem. They, the seven churches, represent all the churches, having the same main problem!! You played it off as that being a different problem from others at the time. Each of the seven churches, had their own problems, but even then they kind of represented the types of churches, but they also all had the same single issue of not seeking the voice of the Lord and keeping others in their church from seeking Him!

For example:

Rev 2:14 ‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.

That was a problem that the church in Pergamum had. It is the problem of sexual perversion or acts of immorality. Yet that was not being pointed out to the church from those inside the church so the reproof "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (Rev 2:17) was also given to them. The Lord will point out the issues and reprove us, if we are will to accept it, but we are not willing to listen to Him because we don't want to hear the reproof!!! That is why each of the churches had the same problem, and all seven of seven is not just those seven churches!!!!

WE DON'T KEEP THE COMMANDMENT "HEAR O' ISRAEL"!!

Ps 81:11 “But My people did not listen to My voice,
And Israel did not obey Me.

That still applies to His people today!! Yeah, we have forgiveness of sins, but all sins come from not listening to Him!! We don't listen to Him like we should, and we in various ways keep others in all our churches from listening to Him also!!! That is what the seven churches represented, so do we look to ourselves and our church to figure out how we are getting this wrong????

No, we usually look to others and their faults instead of us and our faults!!!

Yet we are commanded to "preach The Word", but instead of turning people to Jesus Christ as "The Word" so listen to Him, we tell them The Bible is The Word of God, and present ourselves as the experts and they are in some type of heresy. Have we not even read:

1 Jn 1: 8 & 9 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So let me be clear. I confess that I only hear from Him about a dozen different times a day!! When I tell some people that they think I am boasting, but I personally realize that is terrible. He is with me all day, so all day I should be talking back and forth with Him, and the important part of talking back and forth is the hearing from Him!! Yet because I do hear from HIm on those days called "Today", and least this verse is not the big problem for me:

Heb 3:7,8 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

And from listening to Him, He wants me to preach Him as The Word of God for the purpose expressed in the following verse:

Heb 3:13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

Which is, whether you realize is or not, is exactly what and why I have been writing to you all along! Don't brush off the similar message sent to all the churches, because all the churches have that problem!! It stops the reproof the Lord has for us, and He reproves those He loves! And the reproof, if you care to believe, is about hearing Him by faith. That is the one thing needed!

Rev 3:19,20 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Luke 10:42 “But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her.”

Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

The OP goes over "private interpretations", and that mean personally listening to the Lord our God!! So I like the OP, even if I think it didn't go far enough and suggested that was for meditation at home. We need Him for all the things in our lives, from our marriages, our jobs, our relationships, our kids sports, what to eat, maybe what clothes to wear, where to go and when, and ways to improve our churches! Oh - and let us not forgive our sex lives and possible "sexual perversion"? We wouldn't want any "heresy" going on, right? Or is that just for the other person?

I need to listen to Him more, so He has me preach The Word of God to mean we need to listen to Him, so I don't forget it. Doing that encourages me and others to hear from Him Today, though 'some' don't like that encouragement. And that 'some', sometimes includes me!

Servus said:

Paul is obviously taking about what he teaches, the tradition he teaches, not what others in the centuries ahead come up with.

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What "tradition" was Paul talking about when he wrote:

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

What "tradition" was Paul talking about? Was it "the Church has the authority to interpret Scripture" as was suggested by The Liturgist?? Let's take a look.

The verse before, 1 Corinthians 11:1 reads: Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
And the verse after 1 Corinthians 11:3 reads: 3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

So, the tradition Paul is setting up is that the Christ (Jesus) is the head of men NOT THE CHURCH!!!!!
If indeed we listen to Him, like He listens to His Father (and that is exactly what Jesus the Christ did and still does to this very day, and why He is The Word of God, not your Bible) then we have a tradition of listening to the Lord our God everyday called TODAY, just like Paul!! In that case we are THE CHURCH, the Lord's people who listen to Him, do what He asks, and come into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ vis His Holy Spirit communicating back and forth with our spirit.

So how do men, and women, get this wrong? Well, it was just like Saul/Paul got it wrong and had to be correct by the Lord!! Men, start following other men, (great religious leaders) instead of the Lord!! Saul was a Pharisee of Pharisees, until he heard the Lord speaking to him on the road!! So the tradition Paul is talking about is absolutely not the tradition of religious leaders, who glorify themselves and their supposed great thinking about God, but rather the tradition of real believers in Christ is a tradition of listening to Him every day!!

Therefore the premise in the OP is correct!! We are not getting our interpretation from The Church, but from the Lord. And anyone that is in the true church, (which is all people, His sheep, who listen to Him) so should be found at any Christian church regardless of denomination) know the Lord our God Jesus Christ personally! Thus, they get private interpretations!! They have to, because we are not all called to do the same thing, unless we are talking about how we are all called to listen to Him for instructions. So that is the message the church has for this world! The good news is that He, Jesus Christ, wants to and will talk to us if we seek Him, which is not exactly the same thing as seeking The Church!! It is nice to be around other people who also know Him and talk to Him, and they should be found at any and all Christian churches, regardless of that churches little man-made traditions, but doing the little individual traditions of a particular church is not necessarily the tradition of actually seeking the voice of our Lord. Maybe those little traditions help us remember to seek our Lord, but if you think the little traditions are the way instead of Jesus Christ, you have it all wrong!! You are making the same mistake Saul, the Pharisee of Pharisee was making, and thus need a word from the Lord, like Acts 9:4 "and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

That is what we remember about Paul, right??? That at one point he didn't know Jesus Christ and His voice, but was living off traditions of men, and then he finally realized the Jesus spoke to him from heaven and then listening to Jesus Christ became the tradition of Paul!!!