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Pondering on John 10

Carl Emerson

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John 10
11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters the flock. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me, 15 just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

We have been told that we will have many teachers and few fathers.

The modern structure of church sure confirms this.

Pastoral visits are vary rare these days.

Shepherds gather and are not hired.

Maybe this is the reason church leaders are often here today and gone tomorrow.

Career choices are made.

Just maybe the whole concept of hiring Christian professionals is flawed.

Discussion welcome.
 

DragonFox91

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I learned 'the good shepherd' is a callback to an OT prophet that refers to God as the Good Shepherd. Here when Jesus refers to himself as the Good Shepherd, he is claiming to be the God of the OT.

For OP's discussion, this means no one else can be the Good Shepherd, he alone is. Everyone else is a flawed human being.

I don't think this means 'throw out all church authority.' Jesus himself appoints people to go out into the world. When he says 'hired hands', I think those are the false teachers / false shepherds. He's saying the false teachers / shepherds don't care about the sheep, but he does. The false teachers have their own motives. That's how I had always understood it.

Alternatively, taking it kind of more from OP's perspective, are the hired hands people he's appointed here, they are not perfect, they are flawed, they can have their own motives, so - even tho they are hired by Jesus to be shepherds - only JEsus is the Good Shepherd.

So is it A, be wary of false teachers. Or is it B, there's decent teachers, but only one Good one. Maybe both!
 
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Carl Emerson

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I learned 'the good shepherd' is a callback to an OT prophet that refers to God as the Good Shepherd. Here when Jesus refers to himself as the Good Shepherd, he is claiming to be the God.

For OP's discussion, this means no one else can be the Good Shepherd, he alone is. Everyone else is a flawed human being.

I don't think this means 'throw out all church authority.' Jesus himself appoints people to go out into the world. When he says 'hired hands', I think those are the false teachers / false shepherds. He's saying the false teachers / shepherds don't care about the sheep, but he does. The false teachers have their own motives. That's how I had always understood it.

Alternatively, taking it kind of more from OP's perspective, are the hired hands people he's appointed here, they are not perfect, they are flawed, they can have their own motives, so - even tho they are hired by Jesus to be shepherds - only JEsus is the Good Shepherd.

So is it A, be wary of false teachers. Or is it B, there's decent teachers, but only one Good one. Maybe both!

I guess I was trying to question the concept of money exchange for ministry.

This does not mean good shepherds shouldn't be supported - yet Paul would not allow it.
 
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Paul4JC

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John 10
11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters the flock. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me, 15 just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

We have been told that we will have many teachers and few fathers.

The modern structure of church sure confirms this.

Pastoral visits are vary rare these days.

Shepherds gather and are not hired.

Maybe this is the reason church leaders are often here today and gone tomorrow.

Career choices are made.

Just maybe the whole concept of hiring Christian professionals is flawed.

Discussion welcome.

So true.

I have a focus on North India (the largest mission field in the world) where I once was a missionary 30 years ago. Shepherding is missing for many people I know from back in the day. (I've written a paper on this). Many from other parts of India benefited from International missions, but were like hired hands. Having benefited for their income, rents, homes, children's education etc. Once many Indians learned the missions system, they had pipelines of money coming in a built empires. Meanwhile in the west, the average Christian felt consoled to give some money to missions, never really knowing where that money actually went. What a vicious circle this created.

Christ exhorted Peter to "feed my sheep." The shepherds in Ezekiel 34 were feeding themselves and neglecting the sheep. IMO it's still the same today in many cases.

Churches focus some on evangelism, even discipleship, bible teaching, but long term shepherding is often missing. Go to cemetery, I mean seminary and your guaranteed a job for life!

Sure there are still many a good leaders and shepherds, dedicated to the flock, but dare the Church of Christ evaluate itself and see where it it really is? No, the only stories that are shared are of successes and :how great we are." Not of our failures, not of our monumental neglect and changes needed.

Meanwhile, those who were not properly shepherded have also developed patterns which are detrimental to their faith. Tunnel vision, distrust of others, lack of transparency, to name a few.

Thank God, for the good shepherd, our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Lukaris

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I believe there are many good shepherds of the various Christian backgrounds preaching the Gospel around the world. It is often bitter and tragic in the short term because anti Christian evil has often martyred so many of the newly evangelized.
 
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Lost4words

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Depends which denomination. Some thrive on telly ads and give me, give me, give me! They must have their private jets etc etc......these, are not good shepherds...
 
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DragonFox91

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I guess I was trying to question the concept of money exchange for ministry.

This does not mean good shepherds shouldn't be supported - yet Paul would not allow it.
The understanding is people need to make a living & so it’s okay to exchange money.

Where I start getting uneasy is the need to try to monetize any ministry. Example would be those of us who aren’t pastors. A lot of Christian ministry should be bc we don’t expect money & everyday acts & doing it out of heart change he’s given us.

Also can you clarify what Paul wouldn’t allow so we on same page?
 
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Carl Emerson

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The understanding is people need to make a living & so it’s okay to exchange money.

Where I start getting uneasy is the need to try to monetize any ministry. Example would be those of us who aren’t pastors. A lot of Christian ministry should be bc we don’t expect money & everyday acts & doing it out of heart change he’s given us.

Also can you clarify what Paul wouldn’t allow so we on same page?
Paul’s ministry in Thessalonica and Corinth offer the chief examples of Paul being self-supporting.

In Thessalonica: “Remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.” (1 Thess. 2:9)

In Thessalonica: “For you, yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.” (2 Thess. 3:7-8)

In Corinth: “And he [Paul] found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them, and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade.” (Acts 18:2-3)

In Corinth: “Or is it only Barnabas and me who have no right to refrain from working for a living?… If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ… What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.” (1 Cor 9:6, 11-12, 18)

In Corinth: “Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God’s gospel to you free of charge?” (2 Cor 11:7)
 
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St_Worm2

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Paul’s ministry in Thessalonica and Corinth offer the chief examples of Paul being self-supporting
Hello Carl, while that's true in a limited way, it's not the entire story (see examples below of the "giving" that he also received for support when he was ministering in/to the churches in both of those cities, cities which, if memory serves, were the only two that he chose to be partially self-supporting in).

The Apostle Paul's Epistles have many additional things to say concerning giving/support, and it seems to me that all of it needs to be considered before reaching a conclusion about it. For instance,

1 Corinthians 9
7 Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?
8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things?
9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING.” God is not concerned about oxen, is He?
10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope ~of sharing the crops~.
11 If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?
12 If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ.
13 Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar?
14 So also ~the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel~.

In v12 above Paul tells us why he and Barnabus did not exercise the right that they had to receive material support from the congregation in Corinth, and he tells us later why they were able to do that (receive no financial support from the Corinthians, that is), at least in part.

2 Corinthains 11
8 I robbed other churches by taking wages from them to serve you;
9 and when I was present with you and was in need, I was not a burden to anyone; for when the brethren came from Macedonia they fully supplied my need, and in everything I kept myself from being a burden to you, and will continue to do so.

I won't post everything, of course, but here is more of what he had to say to us concerning giving/support to churches and elders/pastors.

1 Timothy 5
17 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
18 For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”
Galatians 6
6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him.

Paul's tentmaking trade, which he talked about in Acts 18 & 20, was indeed a means of support for himself and his companions while they were in Corinth & Thessalonica (he did this for a couple of reasons, to not be a burden to the fledgling congregations, and also, at least in one case, to avoid accusations of preaching for financial gain, alone), but this was hardly his only means of support (as the Scriptures above & below testify).

Philippians 4
15 You yourselves also know, Philippians, that at the first preaching of the gospel, after I left Macedonia, no church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you alone;
16 for even in Thessalonica you sent a gift more than once for my needs.

Now, it seems to me that an immediate and important takeaway about this from Paul is that it is ~anything but sinful~ for a pastor to expect to be supported financially by the congregation that he is shepherding & ministering to, because Paul tells us that this is, in point of fact, the will of God for pastors in most situations (e.g. 1 Corinthians 9:14).

That said, there are a number of reasons that Paul chose (and that others should choose today, as well) to be a "tentmaking" pastor (for a time) instead, the principal reason for this being that a young church may be too small when they first open their doors to afford a fulltime pastor's salary.

The good news is (also) that Paul tells us that neither kind of ministry support (either for and/or by a pastor) is sinful, in and of itself, and that choosing to attend the kind of church that best suits you should not be considered to be sinful (in & of itself) either.

What I do believe is sinful is the expectations of some who seem to want the best of both worlds. IOW, they expect a pastor who has spent the enormous amount of $$ that it takes today to receive a MDiv or DDiv in seminary, who works 40+ hours a week at preaching, teaching (for which preparation is the big time-consumer), praying, counseling, visitations (to homes & prisons, etc.), and who leads the church in any number of other ministries & pursuits, including administrative, to somehow do all that, without an income (perhaps they expect their pastors to live w/o sleeping) :scratch:

I also believe that those who insist that pastors should never be supported financially (no matter what) is also sinful, considering all that the Bible has to say about giving and support and the many reasons for it.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - in 1 Corinthians 9:12 the Apostle Paul tells us that he did not use the "right" that he had (to expect to be materially supported by the congregation in Corinth) so that he and his companions would "cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ". Do you think & should we not all consider that the very opposite can also be true, as well, that ~not~ expecting material support as a pastor (from a different church and a different congregation in a different situation than 1st Century Corinth was in) could be the very thing that CAUSES a hindrance to the Gospel, instead?

I suppose that the way to begin to answer that question needs to be by considering what and also who our "giving" is really for, yes? For instance, is it for the receiver alone, or can it/should it not also be seen as a blessing to the giver, too (perhaps even as the principal blessing)? Perhaps considering again ALL of the reasons that God has commanded us to give (both in the OT/NT) would make for a very worthwhile study and discussion?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Hello Carl, while that's true in a limited way, it's not the entire story (see examples below of the "giving" that he also received for support when he was ministering in/to the churches in both of those cities, cities which, if memory serves, were the only two that he chose to be partially self-supporting in).

The Apostle Paul's Epistles have many additional things to say concerning giving/support, and it seems to me that all of it needs to be considered before reaching a conclusion about it. For instance,

1 Corinthians 9
7 Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?
8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things?
9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING.” God is not concerned about oxen, is He?
10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope ~of sharing the crops~.
11 If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?
12 If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ.
13 Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar?
14 So also ~the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel~.

In v12 above Paul tells us why he and Barnabus did not exercise the right that they had to receive material support from the congregation in Corinth, and he tells us later why they were able to do that (receive no financial support from the Corinthians, that is), at least in part.

2 Corinthains 11
8 I robbed other churches by taking wages from them to serve you;
9 and when I was present with you and was in need, I was not a burden to anyone; for when the brethren came from Macedonia they fully supplied my need, and in everything I kept myself from being a burden to you, and will continue to do so.

I won't post everything, of course, but here is more of what he had to say to us concerning giving/support to churches and elders/pastors.

1 Timothy 5
17 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
18 For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”
Galatians 6
6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him.

Paul's tentmaking trade, which he talked about in Acts 18 & 20, was indeed a means of support for himself and his companions while they were in Corinth & Thessalonica (he did this for a couple of reasons, to not be a burden to the fledgling congregations, and also, at least in one case, to avoid accusations of preaching for financial gain, alone), but this was hardly his only means of support (as the Scriptures above & below testify).

Philippians 4
15 You yourselves also know, Philippians, that at the first preaching of the gospel, after I left Macedonia, no church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you alone;
16 for even in Thessalonica you sent a gift more than once for my needs.

Now, it seems to me that an immediate and important takeaway about this from Paul is that it is ~anything but sinful~ for a pastor to expect to be supported financially by the congregation that he is shepherding & ministering to, because Paul tells us that this is, in point of fact, the will of God for pastors in most situations (e.g. 1 Corinthians 9:14).

That said, there are a number of reasons that Paul chose (and that others should choose today, as well) to be a "tentmaking" pastor (for a time) instead, the principal reason for this being that a young church may be too small when they first open their doors to afford a fulltime pastor's salary.

The good news is (also) that Paul tells us that neither kind of ministry support (either for and/or by a pastor) is sinful, in and of itself, and that choosing to attend the kind of church that best suits you should not be considered to be sinful (in & of itself) either.

What I do believe is sinful is the expectations of some who seem to want the best of both worlds. IOW, they expect a pastor who has spent the enormous amount of $$ that it takes today to receive a MDiv or DDiv in seminary, who works 40+ hours a week at preaching, teaching (for which preparation is the big time-consumer), praying, counseling, visitations (to homes & prisons, etc.), and who leads the church in any number of other ministries & pursuits, including administrative, to somehow do all that, without an income (perhaps they expect their pastors to live w/o sleeping) :scratch:

I also believe that those who insist that pastors should never be supported financially (no matter what) is also sinful, considering all that the Bible has to say about giving and support and the many reasons for it.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - in 1 Corinthians 9:12 the Apostle Paul tells us that he did not use the "right" that he had (to expect to be materially supported by the congregation in Corinth) so that he and his companions would "cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ". Do you think & should we not all consider that the very opposite can also be true, as well, that ~not~ expecting material support as a pastor (from a different church and a different congregation in a different situation than 1st Century Corinth was in) could be the very thing that CAUSES a hindrance to the Gospel, instead?

I suppose that the way to begin to answer that question needs to be by considering what and also who our "giving" is really for, yes? For instance, is it for the receiver alone, or can it/should it not also be seen as a blessing to the giver, too (perhaps even as the principal blessing)? Perhaps considering again ALL of the reasons that God has commanded us to give (both in the OT/NT) would make for a very worthwhile study and discussion?

I was hoping to make the distinction between receiving gifts and support and being contracted to perform duty for a price.
 
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Paul4JC

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I spent 10-15 years on the mission field with no salary. I was partially supported and self supported. It was a skewed and broken system. God blessed me despite this. We can throw Bible verses around, but unless the church is willing to obey biblical principles, it's all hearsay.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I spent 10-15 years on the mission field with no salary. I was partially supported and self supported. It was a skewed and broken system. God blessed me despite this. We can throw Bible verses around, but unless the church is willing to obey biblical principles, it's all hearsay.

Would you like to expand on this ???
 
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St_Worm2

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I was hoping to make the distinction between receiving gifts and support and being contracted to perform duty for a price.
Hello again Carl, I began my last post by replying to something that you said in one of your secondary posts above (concerning Paul being "self-supporting" in the two cities where he used his tentmaking skills as a secondary means of support, Corinth and Thessalonica), and (along with what was said in a couple of other members' posts) I went on from there to post what I did.

I'd like to go back to the intended OP topic now and begin again, but I think that I'll need a little help from you to do so because I've never thought of pastors or missionaries as those who "perform duty for a price" before. So, first off, what kinds of things determine the difference between a missionary or pastor who receives "gifts & support" from one who "performs duty for a price", instead?

Thanks for your help :oldthumbsup:

God bless you!!

--David
 
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Carl Emerson

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Hello again Carl, I began my last post by replying to something that you said in one of your secondary posts above (concerning Paul being "self-supporting" in the two cities where he used his tentmaking skills as a secondary means of support, Corinth and Thessalonica), and (along with what was said in a couple of other members' posts) I went on from there to post what I did.

I'd like to go back to the intended OP topic now and begin again, but I think that I'll need a little help from you to do so because I've never thought of pastors or missionaries as those who "perform duty for a price" before. So, first off, what kinds of things determine the difference between a missionary or pastor who receives "gifts & support" from one who "performs duty for a price", instead?

Thanks for your help :oldthumbsup:

God bless you!!

--David
Thanks for a refreshing response - most members have learned to fire bullets at a question rather than sensitively working it through.

We are touching on a bigger question as to how the Body of Christ is meant to function.

It seems that we have lost sight of the fact that the church was born - not from scratch, but in the context of an existing Jewish community.

The Jews had learned to survive for centuries under immense pressure and had developed community principles that in fact were a prime reason why the fledgling church survived the intense opposition from Rome and beyond.

Christian workers in Israel today often struggle to survive, and are often humbled to accept support from those they came to 'convert'.

So firstly look at what was already revealed about how Godly community was meant to function in the OT.

Then look at the teachings of Jesus because a lot of what He said can only be understood in the context of healthy community where families combine day to day. This was in fact how the fellowship of the prophets was sustained as they traveled.

Then there is the issue of the God given spiritual gifts and callings and if they can be bought with a price.

Peter made it clear that such an arrangement was pretty much an abomination judging from his response to Simon Magus.

Add to this the warning that our leadership is meant to be a servant role - a far cry from a professional walking in to run the show under contract.

And behind all this is the denial of the priesthood of all believers and rather wanting to retain a selected ordained priesthood old covenant style rather than a community that knows its own and who God is raising up to lead.

Branches of the modern traditional church are proving un-sustainable when big buildings are involved and smaller congregations attract the pool of believers.

Despite all of this He works to care for His own in a broken system that is often more political than spiritual and hardly the visible witness that Jesus spoke of in John 17. (i.e. a unity so glorious that the unsaved are attracted to Him as they see it in action.)

This is a bit of a rant but heart felt - we have largely lost our way and need to reflect and regroup more as community than what we have come to know as one day church with paid leaders.
 
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