Have you got personal opinions and private interpretations of the holy scriptures for which you feel pride?

Bob Crowley · Jun 17, 2026

2PhiloVoid said:
... Of course, I say all of this in memory of Copernicus and Galileo and Pascal .......................................and others like them.

For an accurate understandng of the Galileo affair, this article is much closer to the truth than the protestant bias of "The church taught the earth was flat" etc. At no time did the Church teach the earth was flat.

Misleading Narratives: The Galileo Affair's Lessons

Are science and religion locked in a zero-sum struggle—or have oversimplifications of a complex history crafted this false impression?

heterodoxacademy.org

Galileo was born in 1564. The Magellan exploration which sailed around the globe (completed by Juan Elcano after Magellan was killed in the Phillippines) had been completed in 1522, 42 years before Galileo was even born. It was obvious the earth was a sphere before Galileo walked the earth.

Secondly most of the extant scientific community did not agree with heliocentrism. Froman AI source -

... most scientists and natural philosophers of Galileo’s time did not believe in heliocentrism. Instead, the vast majority favored the geocentric model (Earth-centered), while many astronomers adopted a compromise called the geo-heliocentric model.Why the Scientific Community Resisted Heliocentrism:Lack of Observable Proof: If the Earth were moving at incredible speeds through space, scientists of the era argued there should be observable physical consequences, such as a shift in the position of distant stars (stellar parallax). Because telescopes at the time were not yet capable of detecting this, heliocentrism lacked complete physical validation.Contradicted Established Physics: Heliocentrism clashed with the prevailing Aristotelian understanding of physics and gravity.Used Only as a Math Tool: When Nicolaus Copernicus first proposed the sun-centered theory decades earlier, many astronomers treated it merely as a convenient mathematical trick to predict planetary positions, not as physical truth.Galileo's Flawed Proofs: Galileo's famous arguments for the Earth's movement—specifically his theory that the Earth's motion caused ocean tides—were actually scientifically incorrect.

Third Galileo shoved his own foot in his own mouth when he ridiculed the pope in the guise of a character called Simplicio.

To make matters worse, Galileo foolishly put the pope’s argument about the difficulty of ascertaining final scientific truth into the mouth of a character called Simplicio, which many have taken to be an insult to the pope. The pope was enraged by Galileo’s apparent deceit in defending the physical truth of heliocentrism as an established matter of fact, and Galileo was summoned to Rome to stand trial.

Finally he was sentenced to house arrest, not jail and he lived very comfortably.

From an AI source -

Galileo’s house arrest was relatively lenient and comfortable, rather than a harsh prison sentence. Though officially convicted of "vehement suspicion of heresy" in 1633, his lifelong sentence was immediately commuted. He lived in luxurious villas, received visitors, and continued his scientific writing until his death. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

The reality of his confinement was far less severe than the myth of him being locked away in a dank dungeon: [1]

Living Conditions: He was initially housed in comfortable apartments in Rome, and later served his house arrest primarily at his lovely villa in Arcetri, near Florence. [1, 2]

Daily Movement: While technically confined, the restriction mostly meant he could not leave the city of Florence without permission. Given his age (69 at the time of his trial) and failing health, this wasn't as restrictive as it sounds. [1, 2]

Research and Visitors: He was allowed to receive guests, correspond with other scientists, and even travel to Florence for medical treatment when he went blind. [1]

Scientific Output: Far from being silenced, he was permitted to continue his studies. It was during this period of house arrest that he wrote his seminal work, Discourses and Mathematical Demonstrations Concerning Two New Sciences. [1, 2]

Religious Duties: His formal sentence required him to recite the seven penitential psalms once a week for three years, a task he was allowed to delegate to his daughter. [1]

Restrictions to Note:
The most severe limitations involved his communication and publications. The Inquisition banned his offending book (Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems) and broadly forbade him from publishing any new works or publicly teaching Copernican ideas. [1, 2]

2PhiloVoid · Jun 17, 2026

Bob Crowley said:
For an accurate understandng of the Galileo affair, this article is much closer to the truth than the protestant bias of "The church taught the earth was flat" etc. At no time did the Church teach the earth was flat.

Misleading Narratives: The Galileo Affair's Lessons

Are science and religion locked in a zero-sum struggle—or have oversimplifications of a complex history crafted this false impression?

heterodoxacademy.org

Galileo was born in 1564. The Magellan exploration which sailed around the globe (completed by Juan Elcano after Magellan was killed in the Phillippines) had been completed in 1522, 42 years before Galileo was even born. It was obvious the earth was a sphere before Galileo walked the earth.

Secondly most of the extant scientific community did not agree with heliocentrism. Froman AI source -

Third Galileo shoved his own foot in his own mouth when he ridiculed the pope in the guise of a character called Simplicio.

Finally he was sentenced to house arrest, not jail and he lived very comfortably.

From an AI source -

.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 17, 2026

Xeno.of.athens said:
Your concern about Christians avoiding the idea that only their group can understand Scripture touches something real, but it also needs an important clarification. The Catholic Church has never taught that only Catholics—or only clergy—may gain insight into the Word of God. In fact, the Church urges all the faithful to read Scripture prayerfully, because “all Scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching” (2 Tim 3:16). What the Church does reject is the idea that private interpretation, detached from the apostolic faith, can become the final authority. Scripture itself warns against this: “No prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation” (2 Pet 1:20), and Christ entrusted His teaching authority to the Church so that the Gospel would remain intact: “He who hears you hears Me” (Luke 10:16).

It is also a misunderstanding to suggest that the Catholic Church fears scientific insight or clings to a narrow, sectarian reading of the Bible. The Church honours Copernicus, Galileo, Pascal, and many others—not because they challenged faith, but because they expanded human understanding of God’s creation. The Church teaches that truth cannot contradict truth, since the same God is author of both nature and revelation. Far from discouraging study, the Church insists that Scripture must be read with “the mind of the Church” (1 Cor 2:16), in continuity with the apostles, guided by the Holy Spirit whom Christ promised would “lead you into all truth” (John 16:13).

So yes, Christians of every tradition can gain insight into the sacred texts, and Catholics rejoice whenever someone discovers the beauty of God’s Word. But insight is not the same as authority. Christ established His Church as “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tim 3:15), precisely so that Scripture would not fracture into thousands of competing interpretations. Private reflection is good; private magisteriums are not. The Catholic position is simply that Scripture, Tradition, and the teaching Church belong together, just as they did in the first century, so that the faith handed down by the apostles remains whole and life‑giving for every generation.

Thanks for the AI produced response.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 17, 2026

Bob Crowley said:
For an accurate understandng of the Galileo affair, this article is much closer to the truth than the protestant bias of "The church taught the earth was flat" etc. At no time did the Church teach the earth was flat.

Misleading Narratives: The Galileo Affair's Lessons

Are science and religion locked in a zero-sum struggle—or have oversimplifications of a complex history crafted this false impression?

heterodoxacademy.org

Galileo was born in 1564. The Magellan exploration which sailed around the globe (completed by Juan Elcano after Magellan was killed in the Phillippines) had been completed in 1522, 42 years before Galileo was even born. It was obvious the earth was a sphere before Galileo walked the earth.

Secondly most of the extant scientific community did not agree with heliocentrism. Froman AI source -

Third Galileo shoved his own foot in his own mouth when he ridiculed the pope in the guise of a character called Simplicio.

Finally he was sentenced to house arrest, not jail and he lived very comfortably.

From an AI source -

I guess you told me.

Xeno.of.athens · Jun 17, 2026

2PhiloVoid said:
Thanks for the AI produced response.

Your thanks is misplaced; the reply was mine, but it did receive some grammar smoothing from grammar software. No doubt your post reflects something about how you deal with content.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 17, 2026

Xeno.of.athens said:
Your thanks is misplaced; the reply was mine, but it did receive some grammar smoothing from grammar software. No doubt your post reflects something about how you deal with content.

The problem is that you ask a general question in a general theology forum, but then you turn it into a Catholic specific monologue.

Xeno.of.athens · Jun 17, 2026

2PhiloVoid said:
The problem is that you ask a general question in a general theology forum, but then you turn it into a Catholic specific monologue.

It seems to me that some folk just can't cope with me being a Catholic and giving Catholic answers!
Well, get over it

Catholic answers are what I give!

2PhiloVoid · Jun 17, 2026

Xeno.of.athens said:
It seems to me that some folk just can't cope with me being a Catholic and giving Catholic answers!
Well, get over it
Catholic answers are what I give!

Alright. I'll get over it since I have little pride to pander to.

Proximus · Jun 23, 2026

Xeno.of.athens said:
I can affirm that while private reading of Scripture is a beautiful and necessary part of a Christian’s life, the Church cautions against treating one’s personal interpretation as self‑sufficient or authoritative, because the Bible was entrusted to the Church as a whole and must be read within the living Sacred Tradition that gave it birth. The Church encourages every believer to meditate on the Word of God in their own home but also teaches—following Dei Verbum 10 and the Catechism 113–119—that Scripture cannot be rightly understood when detached from the faith of the Church, the rule of faith, and the Magisterium that safeguards its authentic meaning. For that reason, when someone’s private interpretation contradicts the Church’s constant teaching, the Catholic response is not discomfort with Scripture itself but confidence that Christ established a visible community, guided by the Holy Spirit, to preserve the unity of truth and prevent the fragmentation that arises when individuals elevate their own opinions above the apostolic faith.

It is essential to note, that when the Church has departed into the personal interpretations based on the letter alone, apart from any context and the spiritual sense, then it begins to claim the authority which it does not have, except in an fantasy, and it is allowed to have it, according to the law of permissions, but it is not the truth then, no matter what the claims then are, as to the authority.

The Liturgist · Jun 23, 2026

Proximus said:
It is essential to note, that when the Church has departed into the personal interpretations based on the letter alone, apart from any context and the spiritual sense, then it begins to claim the authority which it does not have, except in an fantasy, and it is allowed to have it, according to the law of permissions, but it is not the truth then, no matter what the claims then are, as to the authority.

According to 2 Peter the Church has the authority to interpret Scripture, and this interpretation is the basis for the Tradition referred to by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 2:37.

This is a simple Scriptural observation - and note I’m Orthodox, not Roman Catholic, but with respect to the Catechism, its not wrong.

Also Magisterial Protestants such as Luther, Calvin, Cranmer and Wesley agreed with the idea of the Church holding the teaching office, which is probably why they’re called “Magisterial.”

So this is not an exclusively Roman Catholic vs. Protestant issue, its rather more of a dispute between the more traditional denominations and even some Baptists over the authority of the church.

Proximus · Jun 24, 2026

The Liturgist said:
Also Magisterial Protestants such as Luther, Calvin, Cranmer and Wesley agreed with the idea of the Church holding the teaching office, which is probably why they’re called “Magisterial.”

You are commenting on something else, and not on what I pointed out.
With regard to you point, if the interpretation is substantially totally false, which in part, with regard to some Roman Catholic traditions, even Luther indicated (despite the errors of his own), then it is the right and even obligation of other clergy to point it out. Similarly, the community has the right not to accept such interpretations, and in the orderly way to remove such officials from their office. The more so if some should claim that they "impeccable", when speaking out of cathedra, be those individual or "collective pope".

The Liturgist · Jun 24, 2026

Proximus said:
You are commenting on something else, and not on what I pointed out.
With regard to you point, if the interpretation is substantially totally false, which in part, with regard to some Roman Catholic traditions, even Luther indicated (despite the errors of his own), then it is the right and even obligation of other clergy to point it out. Similarly, the community has the right not to accept such interpretations, and in the orderly way to remove such officials from their office. The more so if some should claim that they "impeccable", when speaking out of cathedra, be those individual or "collective pope".

And to clarify what is your denomination? i’m guessing you’re not православний? (Eastern Orthodox, whether in the UOC or the OCU or the Kyiv Patriarchate or some other Orthodox church resident in Ukraine).

K2K · Jul 12, 2026

Our religion, by definition, is our understanding of God! That includes our understanding of the Scriptures!!! And we regularly see people taking pride in their religion/church. So what is the solution?

The one and only solution is to do and say only what the Lord our God tells you! The problem is that ONLY JESUS CHRIST does that!!! That is why Jesus Christ is called "The Word of God" - that common phrase which we name the Bible by. But the Bible is not THE WORD OF GOD, according to the Bible!! The Bible is the "Scriptures", and the Greek word for that is Graphe, and it's not translated "word" in the Bible. It is always translated Scripture not 'word'!! Yet the Scriptures are worth studying, even to show that the Bible is not the Word of God, but Jesus Christ is!!the Bible is good for reproof, so here it is:

Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Heb 4:12,13 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

note: a book cannot be referred to as "His", and is not a living being! But the word of God (Jesus Christ) is alive and active, so He can judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart

Jn 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

Jesus took on flesh, and this is part of a test for false spirits! So calling the Bible the Word of God actually contradicts this test!

1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Now those who God inspired to write Scriptures, like Moses, certainly heard the Word of God talking to them, but their writings don't mean you do. Indeed, they wrote so that you might start seeking Him and His voice as The Word of God. The Christ has always been called The Word of God or the word of the Lord [same thing]

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying...
Gen 15:4 Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying...
1 Sam 15:10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
2 Sam 7:4 But in the same night the word of the LORD came to Nathan, saying,
1 Kings 6:11 Now the word of the LORD came to Solomon saying,

The reason they called Him 'the word of the Lord' / The Word of God' was because He was the one who spoke to them. And so His speaking is to us today is the reason we need to call Jesus Christ The Word of God. We get life because we hear His words!! And His words for us personally are heard by the Holy Spirit and brought to us by the Holy Spirit to our spirit. That is why the Word of God we preach is found near us, in our mouth and in our heart.

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

I have a lot of Bibles, but most of the time they are not near me!! I have things to do, people to see, and work to perform. So while I spend a little time each morning with the Lord, and I have a Bible handy then because He sometimes like to talk about it, never-the-less it is not usually near me!! He on the other hand never leaves me. I can talk to Him anytime! If you want to do a better job at work, talk to Him and listen to Him while at work!!! So why do we see so many people in front of churches saying the Bible is the Word of God? Well, that is explained in Isaiah!!

Is 28:12,13 He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen
So the word of the LORD to them will be,
“Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there,”
That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.

When we don't listen to Him, then "the word of the Lord" has to be the orderly lines of text in the Bible that we read a little here and there!! If you are not going to listen to Him, and you want a word from Him, you will then go to the writings of those He spoke to a few thousand years ago. The problem is that causes you to fall away from Him, then you wind up stumbling in your walk, then you wind up broken, and then you get snared and taken captive, usually by religious spirits! That is; spirits that get you to lean on your own understanding of God (religion) instead of listening to Him for His understanding!!

Prov 3: 5,6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.

With that all written in a proof - The simple fact is that none of us listen to Him like we should so we all have sin (pride) in us!

Rom 7: 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

So what can we do? Well, we can try and seek the voice of the Lord as we can and listen. I am really bad at it! I only hear from Him about a dozen times a day!! That's horrible, and the more I listen to Him the more I realize how bad it is to only hear from Him about a dozen times a day. Of course that is enough to know He is The Word of God because He owns the words of God. He Father game them to Him.

Jn 16"15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Jn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

So what exactly are we to "meditate" on? Is it the Bible or what He talks to us about? Yeah, He talks to me about the Bible (or how do you think I put all those verses together), but my life is not made up of the Bible, but of all the things that I do during the day!! So if smart, and I am not usually as smart as I should be, I will take all things to Him and listen!! Just like I already pointed out:

Prov 3: 5,6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.

So I strongly disagree with the OP!!
We meditate on what the Lord has told us personally, not the Scriptures except the He sometimes talks to us about them. The Lord, not the Scriptures, is The Word of God!! Did we not even notice that Satan is quoted in the Scriptures, and his words are not God's words even when Satan says, 'it is written'!

The Scriptures cannot be rightly understood when "detached" from Jesus Christ, but religion (our understanding of God) detaches us from Jesus Christ unless your understanding is the you must listen to Him!

Mat 17:5 a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

And didn't we notice the religious leaders (Pharisees and Sadducees) were the ones who did not listen to the Lord???? If it was happening then, and there is nothing new under the sun, then it is happening today. If you listen to Him, you will find out that you wind up with a personal relationship with Him!! He will personalize the Scriptures for you needs when you need it - or do we really think that everyone is going to part the Red Sea like Moses in the Scriptures did? He had me open and run a Christian bookstore for a couple of years, but there is nothing in the Bible about doing that! So again I strongly disagree with the OP!!!

The Liturgist · Jul 12, 2026

K2K said:
Our religion, by definition, is our understanding of God! That includes our understanding of the Scriptures!!! And we regularly see people taking pride in their religion/church. So what is the solution?

The one and only solution is to do and say only what the Lord our God tells you! The problem is that ONLY JESUS CHRIST does that!!! That is why Jesus Christ is called "The Word of God" - that common phrase which we name the Bible by. But the Bible is not THE WORD OF GOD, according to the Bible!! The Bible is the "Scriptures", and the Greek word for that is Graphe, and it's not translated "word" in the Bible. It is always translated Scripture not 'word'!! Yet the Scriptures are worth studying, even to show that the Bible is not the Word of God, but Jesus Christ is!!the Bible is good for reproof, so here it is:

Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Heb 4:12,13 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

note: a book cannot be referred to as "His", and is not a living being! But the word of God (Jesus Christ) is alive and active, so He can judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart

Jn 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

Jesus took on flesh, and this is part of a test for false spirits! So calling the Bible the Word of God actually contradicts this test!

1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Now those who God inspired to write Scriptures, like Moses, certainly heard the Word of God talking to them, but their writings don't mean you do. Indeed, they wrote so that you might start seeking Him and His voice as The Word of God. The Christ has always been called The Word of God or the word of the Lord [same thing]

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying...
Gen 15:4 Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying...
1 Sam 15:10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
2 Sam 7:4 But in the same night the word of the LORD came to Nathan, saying,
1 Kings 6:11 Now the word of the LORD came to Solomon saying,

The reason they called Him 'the word of the Lord' / The Word of God' was because He was the one who spoke to them. And so His speaking is to us today is the reason we need to call Jesus Christ The Word of God. We get life because we hear His words!! And His words for us personally are heard by the Holy Spirit and brought to us by the Holy Spirit to our spirit. That is why the Word of God we preach is found near us, in our mouth and in our heart.

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

I have a lot of Bibles, but most of the time they are not near me!! I have things to do, people to see, and work to perform. So while I spend a little time each morning with the Lord, and I have a Bible handy then because He sometimes like to talk about it, never-the-less it is not usually near me!! He on the other hand never leaves me. I can talk to Him anytime! If you want to do a better job at work, talk to Him and listen to Him while at work!!! So why do we see so many people in front of churches saying the Bible is the Word of God? Well, that is explained in Isaiah!!

Is 28:12,13 He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen
So the word of the LORD to them will be,
“Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there,”
That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.

When we don't listen to Him, then "the word of the Lord" has to be the orderly lines of text in the Bible that we read a little here and there!! If you are not going to listen to Him, and you want a word from Him, you will then go to the writings of those He spoke to a few thousand years ago. The problem is that causes you to fall away from Him, then you wind up stumbling in your walk, then you wind up broken, and then you get snared and taken captive, usually by religious spirits! That is; spirits that get you to lean on your own understanding of God (religion) instead of listening to Him for His understanding!!

Prov 3: 5,6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.

With that all written in a proof - The simple fact is that none of us listen to Him like we should so we all have sin (pride) in us!

Rom 7: 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

So what can we do? Well, we can try and seek the voice of the Lord as we can and listen. I am really bad at it! I only hear from Him about a dozen times a day!! That's horrible, and the more I listen to Him the more I realize how bad it is to only hear from Him about a dozen times a day. Of course that is enough to know He is The Word of God because He owns the words of God. He Father game them to Him.

Jn 16"15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Jn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

So what exactly are we to "meditate" on? Is it the Bible or what He talks to us about? Yeah, He talks to me about the Bible (or how do you think I put all those verses together), but my life is not made up of the Bible, but of all the things that I do during the day!! So if smart, and I am not usually as smart as I should be, I will take all things to Him and listen!! Just like I already pointed out:

Prov 3: 5,6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.

So I strongly disagree with the OP!!
We meditate on what the Lord has told us personally, not the Scriptures except the He sometimes talks to us about them. The Lord, not the Scriptures, is The Word of God!! Did we not even notice that Satan is quoted in the Scriptures, and his words are not God's words even when Satan says, 'it is written'!

The Scriptures cannot be rightly understood when "detached" from Jesus Christ, but religion (our understanding of God) detaches us from Jesus Christ unless your understanding is the you must listen to Him!

Mat 17:5 a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

And didn't we notice the religious leaders (Pharisees and Sadducees) were the ones who did not listen to the Lord???? If it was happening then, and there is nothing new under the sun, then it is happening today. If you listen to Him, you will find out that you wind up with a personal relationship with Him!! He will personalize the Scriptures for you needs when you need it - or do we really think that everyone is going to part the Red Sea like Moses in the Scriptures did? He had me open and run a Christian bookstore for a couple of years, but there is nothing in the Bible about doing that! So again I strongly disagree with the OP!!!

What point in the OP do you disagree with?

Because it seems to me that the OP is specifically pointing to the danger of pride in Scriptural interpretations.

Also my dear friend @Xeno.of.athens has consistently argued that the word Logos, translated as The Word of God, refers to our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, and not to Sacred Scripture (graphe), a point on which I agree, except insofar as Scripture is a verbal icon of the Lord (most references to the Word in the New Testament can be interpreted Christologically but some can also be interpreted as Scriptural references provided they are not shorn of their Christological meaning, since Christ is most definitely the Word of God, but Scripture is the Word of the Word, a verbal icon of Christ that is our primary source of inspired revelation about Him.

K2K · Jul 20, 2026

The Liturgist said:
What point in the OP do you disagree with?

Because it seems to me that the OP is specifically pointing to the danger of pride in Scriptural interpretations.

Also my dear friend @Xeno.of.athens has consistently argued that the word Logos, translated as The Word of God, refers to our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, and not to Sacred Scripture (graphe), a point on which I agree, except insofar as Scripture is a verbal icon of the Lord (most references to the Word in the New Testament can be interpreted Christologically but some can also be interpreted as Scriptural references provided they are not shorn of their Christological meaning, since Christ is most definitely the Word of God, but Scripture is the Word of the Word, a verbal icon of Christ that is our primary source of inspired revelation about Him.

Actually I could be wrong to say I disagree with the OP. While reading the OP it was a bit hard to determine what was exactly from the church and what was from the author, and how much of what the church was saying the author disagreed with. Anyway I believe we need to respect the church, that the Scriptures are important, yet we Christian have to follow the Lord our God!!!
Remember that all the seven early churches and specifically the angel in them who were written to, had to be reproved by the Lord through John!!!! And the main thing God reproves them for was not letting those with and ear to hear listen to what the Holy Spirit had to say to them!! And this is what is being discussed in the OP, is it not?

‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ - was given as reproof to all seven churches written to in Revelation ! So the churches were reproved for trying to prevent conversations between the Holy Spirit and those Christians who could hear from the Holy Spirit!!

To the extent that the OP is saying that I fully agree with it, and indeed strongly approve the statements there in!

The Liturgist · Jul 20, 2026

K2K said:
Remember that all the seven early churches

The seven churches addressed in Revelation were not “all seven early churches” - rather they were a specific group of churches in Asia Minor that the Holy Apostle John the Beloved Disciple was closely connected to. Notable early churches missing from the list include those in Jerusalem (which would be temporarily displaced to Caesarea following the Bar Kochba revolt in 130 AD before being re-established with the restoration of Jerusalem following the pilgrimage to the largely ruined city (which had been left with a fraction of its former population, renamed and turned into a Roman administrative center) undertaken by St. Helena, the Christian mother of Emperor Constantine, around 320 AD; the Church of Antioch, where the disciples were first called Christians, the church in various churches in Galatia, Thessaloniki, Cyprus, Athens, Rome and elsewhere either written to by the Holy Apostle Paul, the church in Damascus, the church that formed on Patmos where John was exiled, and indeed those are just some of the churches mentioned in the New Testament.

From historical sources, archaeology and Patristic documents we know of the Church of Alexandria, which would become one of the most important in antiquity, which according to all sources in the early church was founded by St. Mark the Evangelist who had been mentored by the Holy Apostle Peter, the churches in Edessa, Nisibis, the Nineveh Plains, Seleucia-Cstesiphon, Basra and Kerala, India on the overland trade route through Mesopotamia to the Malabar Coast, along which a substantial Jewish population had lived since around 200 BC - this church was evangelized by the Holy Apostle Thomas with assistance from two members of the Seventy, Addai and Mari, and in India its members are known as Mar Thoma Christians, and the church in Byzantion founded by the Holy Apostle Andrew.

This is not to say that the churches mentioned in Revelation were not important, or that the warnings given to them are not relevant to the churches today (particularly the warning about the Nicolaitan heresy - this was according to St. Irenaeus of Lyons and other Patristic sources founded by Nicolas the Deacon and in addition to embracing Docetism like Cerinthus and other ideas such as dualism taught by Simon Magus under quasi-Zoroastrian influence, this group also believed in holding all property in common, and regarded their wives as property, and it should be easy to see where that headed and why our Lord despised it. With regards to contemporary churches I believe it is relevant as a rebuke of certain forms of Liberation Theology and of the increasingly lax approach to sexual morality we’re seeing in the mainline churches, with the PCUSA having moved from acceptance of homosexual marriage contrary to clear Scriptural instructions to actively contemplating accepting polytheism. But it is also a rebuke of some sects which have reacted to unscriptural practices such as the ordination of women by becoming openly misogynistic - and misogyny is completely unscriptural, given that Christ our True God first appeared following His resurrection to the Myrhh Bearing Women, and given his incarnation from the Blessed Virgin Mary, and also given the large number of holy women from the old testament (Sarah, Deborah, Ruth and Esther just to name a few). Also lukewarmness has become a particularly serious problem.

K2K · Jul 22, 2026

The Liturgist said:
The seven churches addressed in Revelation were not “all seven early churches” - rather they were a specific group of churches in Asia Minor that the Holy Apostle John the Beloved Disciple was closely connected to. Notable early churches missing from the list include those in Jerusalem (which would be temporarily displaced to Caesarea following the Bar Kochba revolt in 130 AD before being re-established with the restoration of Jerusalem following the pilgrimage to the largely ruined city (which had been left with a fraction of its former population, renamed and turned into a Roman administrative center) undertaken by St. Helena, the Christian mother of Emperor Constantine, around 320 AD; the Church of Antioch, where the disciples were first called Christians, the church in various churches in Galatia, Thessaloniki, Cyprus, Athens, Rome and elsewhere either written to by the Holy Apostle Paul, the church in Damascus, the church that formed on Patmos where John was exiled, and indeed those are just some of the churches mentioned in the New Testament.

From historical sources, archaeology and Patristic documents we know of the Church of Alexandria, which would become one of the most important in antiquity, which according to all sources in the early church was founded by St. Mark the Evangelist who had been mentored by the Holy Apostle Peter, the churches in Edessa, Nisibis, the Nineveh Plains, Seleucia-Cstesiphon, Basra and Kerala, India on the overland trade route through Mesopotamia to the Malabar Coast, along which a substantial Jewish population had lived since around 200 BC - this church was evangelized by the Holy Apostle Thomas with assistance from two members of the Seventy, Addai and Mari, and in India its members are known as Mar Thoma Christians, and the church in Byzantion founded by the Holy Apostle Andrew.

This is not to say that the churches mentioned in Revelation were not important, or that the warnings given to them are not relevant to the churches today (particularly the warning about the Nicolaitan heresy - this was according to St. Irenaeus of Lyons and other Patristic sources founded by Nicolas the Deacon and in addition to embracing Docetism like Cerinthus and other ideas such as dualism taught by Simon Magus under quasi-Zoroastrian influence, this group also believed in holding all property in common, and regarded their wives as property, and it should be easy to see where that headed and why our Lord despised it. With regards to contemporary churches I believe it is relevant as a rebuke of certain forms of Liberation Theology and of the increasingly lax approach to sexual morality we’re seeing in the mainline churches, with the PCUSA having moved from acceptance of homosexual marriage contrary to clear Scriptural instructions to actively contemplating accepting polytheism. But it is also a rebuke of some sects which have reacted to unscriptural practices such as the ordination of women by becoming openly misogynistic - and misogyny is completely unscriptural, given that Christ our True God first appeared following His resurrection to the Myrhh Bearing Women, and given his incarnation from the Blessed Virgin Mary, and also given the large number of holy women from the old testament (Sarah, Deborah, Ruth and Esther just to name a few). Also lukewarmness has become a particularly serious problem.

They were "“all seven early churches" recorded in Revelation. So, seven out of seven had the exact same problem!!!!

And to think the Bible is "not relevant to the churches today", sounds to me like a big hugh massive mistake!!!

Why do we think God decided to maintain the Scared Writing (The Scriptures) if they simply do not apply to us today????

I believe, and that from actually listening to Him talk to me about the Scriptures, that He our Lord God and Teacher knew the issues we have as people, and so had the Bible written to personally go over them with us. Maybe He has not gone over this with everyone at this point, but certainly He would go over this with the leaders of every church, if they were in fact listening to Him, right?? For those seven churches, and the angel in charge of them, the Lord our God Jesus Christ had John write to them and reprove them and all of them got the same exact reprove in the area of letting those with and ear to hear, hear what the Spirit had to say to the churches!!! And we know God reproves those He loves, right?

Rev 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

And notice how this comes right before being told that He is standing there knocking with His voice, hoping we will open up to Him?

Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

I have to get going on my business, but He asked me to come and post before I got going on my work.

The Liturgist · Jul 23, 2026

K2K said:
They were "“all seven early churches" recorded in Revelation.

Indeed, but there were other local churches not mentioned in Revelation.

K2K said:
So, seven out of seven had the exact same problem!!!!

To be fair our Christ our True God identifies individual problems and gives individual advise to each of them.

K2K said:
And to think the Bible is "not relevant to the churches today", sounds to me like a big hugh massive mistake!!!

Indeed, which is why you’ll note that I specifically said the opposite, and then gave examples of how the advice given to the seven churches mentioned in Revelation remain relevant at present.

K2K said:
I believe, and that from actually listening to Him talk to me about the Scriptures, that He our Lord God and Teacher knew the issues we have as people, and so had the Bible written to personally go over them with us.

That takes us into the realm of private revelation and I can’t discuss what God said or did not say to any individual members of the forum for obvious reasons.

However it is obviously the case that Scripture provides moral edification - it says as much.

K2K said:
I have to get going on my business, but He asked me to come and post before I got going on my work.

Just to be clear, you were not told that I had denied Revelation was relevant to modern churches?

Because the fact of the matter is that I said the opposite:

The Liturgist said:
This is not to say that the churches mentioned in Revelation were not important, or that the warnings given to them are not relevant to the churches today (particularly the warning about the Nicolaitan heresy - this was according to St. Irenaeus of Lyons and other Patristic sources founded by Nicolas the Deacon and in addition to embracing Docetism like Cerinthus and other ideas such as dualism taught by Simon Magus under quasi-Zoroastrian influence, this group also believed in holding all property in common, and regarded their wives as property, and it should be easy to see where that headed and why our Lord despised it. With regards to contemporary churches I believe it is relevant as a rebuke of certain forms of Liberation Theology and of the increasingly lax approach to sexual morality we’re seeing in the mainline churches, with the PCUSA having moved from acceptance of homosexual marriage contrary to clear Scriptural instructions to actively contemplating accepting polytheism. But it is also a rebuke of some sects which have reacted to unscriptural practices such as the ordination of women by becoming openly misogynistic - and misogyny is completely unscriptural, given that Christ our True God first appeared following His resurrection to the Myrhh Bearing Women, and given his incarnation from the Blessed Virgin Mary, and also given the large number of holy women from the old testament (Sarah, Deborah, Ruth and Esther just to name a few). Also lukewarmness has become a particularly serious problem.

K2K · Monday at 1:20 AM

The Liturgist said:
Indeed, but there were other local churches not mentioned in Revelation.

To be fair our Christ our True God identifies individual problems and gives individual advise to each of them.

Indeed, which is why you’ll note that I specifically said the opposite, and then gave examples of how the advice given to the seven churches mentioned in Revelation remain relevant at present.

That takes us into the realm of private revelation and I can’t discuss what God said or did not say to any individual members of the forum for obvious reasons.

However it is obviously the case that Scripture provides moral edification - it says as much.

Just to be clear, you were not told that I had denied Revelation was relevant to modern churches?

Because the fact of the matter is that I said the opposite:

If other churches were not written to, and the Scriptures were written to us, then the other churches are not relevant to the writing!!!

Yes, God does personally teach us if we do listen to Him, but like most teachers today, He uses a textbook (The Bible) to teach us from!!! Of course the Lord, who made all things, does not only use the Scriptures but the Scriptures were inspired by Him for a purpose and since it is written that we will all be taught by God then He had a reason for what He had included and what He didn't include!!

And you wrote "not relevant to the churches today" which I took directly from your writings!

And as for your comment " Scripture provides moral edification"; that is not quite right. It is our Teacher, Jesus Christ, who instructs (Edify) us on moral issues! He does indeed use the Scriptures, but not just the Scriptures, and understanding, according to the Scriptures understanding comes from His voice, note His book. We study the Scriptures because they are good for teaching, by our Teacher right, for correction, from our Teacher right, and for reproof and instruction in righteousness by our Teacher right? The Bible without Jesus Christ as our Teacher does not lead us to righteousness!

So when I read something like:

The Liturgist said:
From historical sources, archaeology and Patristic documents we know

It seems obvious that you are looking for the historical sources, like documents, that you are looking to instead of the Lord and what He says. It's not that we shouldn't look at historical soures and things like documents, but that for understanding and real knowledge about what we study requires actually seeking the Lord our God and listening to Him, just like it is written:

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

So yeah, we get information, and that includes study or things like the Bible, historical sources, documents, and more, but the wisdom for understanding, and knowledge comes from His "MOUTH" - WE HAVE TO LISTEN TO HIM!

Mark 9:7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”

From out of the Cloud (The Holy Spirit) comes the voice of the Lord our God, Jesus Christ (Who is our Teacher - if we listen to Him) and we have the command to "listen to Him".

Servus · Monday at 2:44 AM

The Liturgist said:
According to 2 Peter the Church has the authority to interpret Scripture, and this interpretation is the basis for the Tradition referred to by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 2:37.

This is a simple Scriptural observation - and note I’m Orthodox, not Roman Catholic, but with respect to the Catechism, its not wrong.

Also Magisterial Protestants such as Luther, Calvin, Cranmer and Wesley agreed with the idea of the Church holding the teaching office, which is probably why they’re called “Magisterial.”

So this is not an exclusively Roman Catholic vs. Protestant issue, its rather more of a dispute between the more traditional denominations and even some Baptists over the authority of the church.

Paul is obviously taking about what he teaches, the tradition he teaches, not what others in the centuries ahead come up with.

Have you got personal opinions and private interpretations of the holy scriptures for which you feel pride?

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