Adventist Beliefs on Biblical Signs of the End Days.

tall73 · Wednesday at 6:57 AM

Capbook2 said:
You did not name of any Adventist scholars but this I find online a direct opposite to your conclusion.
This is from Andrews University a dissertation as both exegetical and theological in nature.
You may clink the link.

I was referring to SabbathBlessing's AI comment above.

But also, I did cite the SDA Bible Commentary. And of course, they quoted Ellen White.

There is a different standard for publishing a dissertation, which aims at new research, and publishing a commentary which is intended to give, in the view of the editorial team, etc. a view of the denomination.

But apart from that the whole point of majority/minority is that there is both. So yes, obviously some do take the other view.

You might want to look at one of Ellen White's references to this:

And thus the mountain from which the words of benediction were spoken came to be known as the mount of blessing. But it was not upon Gerizim that the words were spoken which have come as a benediction to a sinning and sorrowing world. Israel fell short of the high ideal which had been set before her. Another than Joshua must guide His people to the true rest of faith. No longer is Gerizim known as the mount of the Beatitudes, but that unnamed mountain beside the Lake of Gennesaret, where Jesus spoke the words of blessing to His disciples and the multitude.

Ellen White--Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing Chapter 1

What does she mean by the underlined sentence? And why would they quote it in the SDA Bible commentary for that section of Hebrews?

I won't add to that so that I am not accused of misrepresenting. But you can read on it.

Capbook2 said:
The formal parallelism between the katapausis of Heb 4:6 and the sabbatismos of 4:9 suggests that sabbatismos is meant to define more precisely the character of the rest. Etymologically sabbatismos derives from sabbatizein in much the same way that baptismos derives from baptizein.

Exactly, which is why they looked at the verbal form in the SDA Bible commentary primarily. You have the verb to baptize, and then the noun, a baptism. But because of its nature of being a substantive describing an action it is indefinite.

And the same is true here. It is a sabbath-like rest. That may be the weekly Sabbath, or a different Sabbath, or as used in Origin a more abstract meaning of sabbath rest. But that is what the majority of scholars think is being done in Hebrews 4 as well, a more abstract reference to spiritual rest that we enter "today" as we rest from our works.

Capbook2 said:
Sabbatismos in non-Christian as well as Christian literature is always used literally meaning Sabbath observance, although sometimes pejoratively, with the exception of Origen who uses the term twice figuratively.

Right, always....except...the times it doesn't. And of course Chrysostom applies Hebrews 4 as referring to other than the weekly Sabbath, as does the SDA Bible commentary.

Also, you ought to look up those "pejorative" statements. Some could even apply to more than just the weekly.

Capbook2 said:
Hebrews 4:10 describes how the sabbatismos will become possible. The one entering it rested (aorist) from his works just as God rested from his on the first Sabbath in the primeval history of the world.

Katapausis and Sabbatismos in Hebrews 4

Problem. Enthusiasm for the subject has not resulted in a general consensus regarding the meaning of “rest” in Heb 4. The dissertation studies the meaning of katapausis and sabbatismos in Heb 4 together with its relation to the neglected gatherings in Heb 10. Method. The study consists of an...

digitalcommons.andrews.edu

Certainly no one doubts that the context of Hebrews 4 makes reference to God's cessation from His creative work. The point being that the rest being spoken of, entered by faith, a resting from works, that we enter "today" is an additional rest to that referred to in the Sabbath command, to rest once per week on the seventh day, in the context.

Capbook2 said:
You ask for a complete definition of "Sabbatismos," please find below, notice the 2 definition, EDNT clearly define it as - it designates more closely what the people of God should expect when they enter the of God (cf. 4:9 with v. 6 a). Just as God rested on the seventh day of creation from all his works.
And TDNT as "σαββατισμός sabbatismos" and on the other the Sabbath rest which is to be observed as a cessation from all work on the seventh day etc.

If you consider the number 1 definition the same with the number 2, the number 1 definition should not have been listed.

They are not the same though. Because the sabbatismos in the context of Hebrews 4 is ongoing, entered "today", rather than intermittent on the 7th day.

Both refer back to God's rest at creation, however. And certainly they are related concepts of resting (but so were the Day of Atonement, Trumpets, etc.)

Capbook2 said:
Heb 4:9 SoG686 there remainsG620 a SabbathG4520 restG4520 for the peopleG2992 of GodG2316.

G4520 (EDNT)
σαββατισμός sabbatismos
1. it designates more closely what the people of God should expect when they enter the
of God (cf. 4:9 with v. 6 a). Just as God rested on the seventh day of creation from all his works,
2. so also will believers find the eternal sabbath rest on the day of the completion of salvation in God's "place of rest"
(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament © 1990 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)

G4520 (Thayer Greek-English Lexicon)
σαββατισμός sabbatismos
1) a keeping sabbath
2) the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians

Right, which is ongoing, and not once a week.

Capbook2 said:
G4520 (Vine's Expository Dictionary)
1. Sabbath-keeping," is used in Heb 4:9, RV, "a sabbath rest," KJV marg., "a keeping of a sabbath" (akin to sabbatizo, "to keep the Sabbath," used, e. g., in Ex 16:30)
2. the perpetual sabbath "rest" to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this sabbath "rest" is the "rest" of God Himself, 4:10,

Right, in contrast. Not in contrast as regards to resting. But as it is used in Hebrews it is perpetual, ongoing, not once per week.

Capbook2 said:
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

G4520 (Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon)
σαββατισμός sabbatismos
a special religiously significant period for rest and worship - 'a Sabbath rest, a period of rest.'
'there still remains for God's people a period of rest' Heb 4:9.
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)

Right, notice the indefinite--a sabbath rest.

tall73 · Wednesday at 6:59 AM

SabbathBlessings said:
What this poster is quoting

I also quoted from your AI assessment. Thanks for that!

SabbathBlessings said:
is an anonymous study reference, not a named Adventist theologian and not an official church position.

It was an editorial committee picked by the denomination.

SabbathBlessings said:
Commentary back from 1953 to 1957 that they themselves say was not meant to settle doctrine. I disagree with the person who wrote it and the official church position does as well.

Of course no commentary settles doctrine. But they were putting forward the view of the editorial committee chosen by the denomination, based on the context.

SabbathBlessings · Wednesday at 7:08 AM

That same committee held, that the seventh-day Sabbath is perpetually binding and in the very comment you're quoting they call the Sabbath the God-given symbol of that rest of grace. So you're citing the committee's authority for "Heb 4:9 isn't a Sabbath proof-text" while dropping the half of its view that says the Sabbath still stands.

It was never official church position on Heb4 or to settle doctrine.

The Church Official position is Heb4 is about the seventh day Sabbath, which is what I believe from my own study of Hebrews 4. I do not believe the apotles were changing and editing God's commandments, that God Himself wrote.

The gracious Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts.

Gen. 2:1-3; Exod. 20:8-11; 31:13-17; Lev. 23:32; Deut. 5:12-15; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Ezek. 20:12, 20; Matt. 12:1-12; Mark 1:32; Luke 4:16; Heb. 4:1-11

tall73 · Wednesday at 7:08 AM

Capbook2 said:
I don't specifically know what Bob Ryan's whole belief about it.
As every Bible words carry meaning or meanings, giving meaning of it by it's own through context result to greater possibility of misinterpretation.

If a word carries one known meaning, functioning as a technical term, then it does strengthen a case. But if it has multiple known meanings, then it is absolutely necessary to look at the meanings in context or you won't be able to know what is being discussed.

So we referenced that sabbatismos is derived from the verbal form, as the dissertation you quoted from points out, and for that reason the SDA Bible commentary looked at the verbal form.

We noted an instance of both the verbal and the noun form regarding uses for the Day of Atonement, for example. If you don't look at the context, and just read in weekly Sabbath, then it won't make sense of the text. The text talks about a Sabbath once per year on a certain date. It is clearly not the weekly Sabbath. So the context didn't make it less clear, but more clear, and just putting in the most common usage wouldn't make sense of the text here.

Or to put it another way, they note the ke meaning is "rest". The weekly Sabbath is part of that key meaning, but a particular application of it.

But anytime a word has multiple potential meanings, then it is necessary to look at context. And any time you come across new usage, you have to have an open mind as to what the author is saying.

Capbook2 said:
Why? Many Bible translations today doesn't abide in the process of "textual criticism" that aims to restore or maintain the highest degree of accuracy to the original languages. They used words not recorded in the original manuscripts.

Many verses have no variants, and if you wish to discuss individual variants we can.

Capbook2 said:
I prefer to follow the very foundation of what Bible word means at the time it was use.
1. Correct definition of original Bible words also derive through context,

Exactly. That is the top point for a reason.

Capbook2 said:
2. It's the foundation of sound exegesis abiding the rules of hermeneutics,
3. One hermeneutics' rule is, Scriptures interpret Scriptures, or clear verse interpret unclear verse,
4. With the three steps, I believe we arrive into a foundational theology.

Only one verse contains the word, and it is in a two chapter section that is all talking about one thing--the rest entered by faith "today" that he is inviting them to enter.

Capbook2 said:
Also, without consulting Bible Lexicons to define Bible words, I'm afraid we'll give meaning to it through our own assumptions and preconceptions without realizing it.

You did consult them. And there are multiple ones, so it is back to context. A dictionalry tells you the possibilities.

tall73 · Wednesday at 7:10 AM

Will try to get to your other posts when I can. I have to go for now.

tall73 · Wednesday at 7:16 AM

SabbathBlessings said:
That same committee held, that the seventh-day Sabbath is perpetually binding and in the very comment you're quoting they call the Sabbath the God-given symbol of that rest of grace. So you're citing the committee's authority for "Heb 4:9 isn't a Sabbath proof-text" while dropping the half of its view that says the Sabbath still stands.

I did not drop anything. I already responded to the other poster noting that the writers of the SDA Bible commentary believe the Sabbath still stands, and to say otherwise would be absurd.

But they also realize that the rest given to enter into contextually is entered into today, not every 7 days.

And they also recognize (as do I) that the recipients of the letter were almost certainly keeping the sabbath already, but he was urging them to enter into the rest being spoken of in chapter 3 and 4, because it REMAINED to be entered into.

SabbathBlessings · Wednesday at 7:29 AM

There's two different rests being spoken of in Hebrews 4, we can enter in God's rest by faith and "today" hear His voice and not harden our hearts and be in rebellion to God as those in the wilderness what Heb4 is verbatim quoting from David.

Heb 4: 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Psa 95:Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was [e]grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

And what did they rebel in the trial of the wilderness ?

Eze 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Which is what prevented an entire generation from entering their promised rest Jos1:13, their inheritance God promised full of milk and honey.

Eze 20:15 So I also raised My hand in an oath to them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands, 16 because they despised My judgments and did not walk in My statutes, but profaned My Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols.

So today, we can hear His voice Heb3:7-19 choose not to rebel against God like those in the trial of the wilderness and enter His rest through faith.

Those who enter His rest through faith also rest from their works as God did, on the seventh day Sabbath Heb4:10, Heb4:4 Exo20:10-11 Gen2:1-3. In God's rest, there is no rebellion to any of God's commandments, why it brings peace. Isa 48:18

No wonder why we are told not to follow in the same example of disobedience lest we fall too Heb4:11 and why the Sabbath rest, or keeping the Sabbath remains for God's people Heb4:9, just as God said, because who can edit God and the bigger question is why would anyone want to if we want to fear God and keep His commandments. Exo20:20 Ecc3:14 Ecc12:13-14 Rev14:6-12

SabbathBlessings · Wednesday at 8:49 AM

Current Adventist commentary and scholarship does connect Hebrews 4:9 with the Sabbath exactly like I and others have through Scriptures.

Erhard Gallos — Seventh-day Adventist New Testament scholar. He concludes that "sabbatismos in non-Christian as well as Christian literature is always used literally meaning Sabbath observance" (with only Origen's figurative use as an exception), and therefore "the Sabbath observance remains for the people of God (4:9)." On the very point in dispute with the older commentary, Gallos holds the two words are related but distinct — the "parallelism between the katapausis of Heb 4:6 and the sabbatismos of 4:9 suggests that sabbatismos is meant to define more precisely the character of the rest."
(Erhard W. Gallos, "Katapausis and Sabbatismos in Hebrews 4," Ph.D. dissertation, Andrews University, Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary, 2011.)

Allen Shepherd — writing in Ministry. He calls Hebrews 4:9 "a most powerful text for the perpetual nature of the Sabbath," argues that "one Jewish practice endures: the Sabbath. It has not been superseded," and states that sabbatismos shows "Sabbath keeping was on the author's mind" — indeed, that "this passage is the ultimate Sabbath text in the Bible."
(Allen Shepherd, "Hebrews 4:9," Ministry: International Journal for Pastors, August 2024.)

I disagree its the "ultimate Sabbath text in the Bible" its profound for sure, but I believe God's own personally written and spoken Testimony and direct expression of His will is the ulimate Sabbath Text. Exo31:18 Exo20:8-11 since there is no one greater than He- my faith will remain on what He said, which I believe was the sentiment of the author of Hebrews as well decades after the Cross, why the Sabbath rest remains, not changed, because who can edit God Ecc3:14.

These SDA commentors are in harmony with the official church position

The gracious Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts.

Gen. 2:1-3; Exod. 20:8-11; 31:13-17; Lev. 23:32; Deut. 5:12-15; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Ezek. 20:12, 20; Matt. 12:1-12; Mark 1:32; Luke 4:16; Heb. 4:1-11

tall73 · Wednesday at 9:19 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
Allen Shepherd — writing in Ministry. He calls Hebrews 4:9 "a most powerful text for the perpetual nature of the Sabbath," argues that "one Jewish practice endures: the Sabbath. It has not been superseded," and states that sabbatismos shows "Sabbath keeping was on the author's mind" — indeed, that "this passage is the ultimate Sabbath text in the Bible."
(Allen Shepherd, "Hebrews 4:9," Ministry: International Journal for Pastors, August 2024.)

I disagree its the "ultimate Sabbath text in the Bible" its profound for sure, but I believe God's own personally written and spoken Testimony and expression of His will is the ulimate Sabbath Text. Exo31:18 Exo20:8-11 since there is no one greater than He- my faith will remain on what He said.

Hebrews 4:9:

Yes, it is a key text

www.ministrymagazine.org

This is from a Ministry magazine in November, so this is one of the every-other months that goes only to Adventist clergy (rather than those for other denominations as well). That is relevant because he is speaking to a difference of opinion even among Adventists interpreters. And he is lamenting that all Adventists do not hold his position.

He makes his appeal not on any details analysis of the text itself, other than noting a different term being used (which all Adventist commentators acknowledge), but an appeal to the overall use of Hebrews of better fulfillments, etc.

But then he also notes that this doesn't claim a better fulfillment. So this would not in that sense be a continuation of those themes. Instead he notes it says the sabbath remains. He doesn't do this by looking at the actual passage in detail, and so he doesn't address what exactly is meant by the rest remaining to be entered into.

It was the rest that could have been entered into in the wilderness, and later still was there in the Psalmist, and now remains for them to enter.

He notes some Adventists disagree with his position, and cites Felix Cortez, a published expert in Hebrews. Per the footnote Cortez, is writing in the Adult Teachers Sabbath School Bible Study Guide for January-March 22.

Félix Cortez, In These Last Days: The Message of Hebrews, Adult Teachers’ Sabbath School Bible Study Guide, January–March 2022, 57–68. The teachers’ lesson contains a passage from the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary: “It may be noted, further, that the Jews of Paul’s time, whether Christian or non-Christian were punctilious in their observance of the fourth commandment. Certainly, in writing to Jews, the author of Hebrews would not consider it necessary to prove to them that Sabbathkeeping ‘remaineth.’ If the conclusion of the extended argument beginning with ch. 3:7 is that Sabbathkeeping remains for the people of God, it would seem that the writer of Hebrews is guilty of a non sequitur.” Francis D. Nichol, ed., The Seventh-Day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 7 (Washington, DC: Review and Herald, 1980), 423. ^

The Sabbath School materials are certainly vetted ahead of time. And far from considering the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary a relic, he quotes it in this recent resource for the whole church in study.

So while you cited this to make a point about modern Adventist scholarship, this was actually written in an in-house ministerial journal to lament that other ministers, and the denomination, publish the opposite view of what he is presenting, and he tries to convince other Adventist ministers that it does refer to the Sabbath, because he knows that is not an obvious position among Adventist clergy.

His notion that

It is thus a symbol of all the meanings that are embodied in resting. This passage is the ultimate Sabbath text in the Bible, for it weaves all the threads of rest into one cord of deep meaning for the New Testament people of God. A Sabbath rest indeed remains!

its not at all clear from the text. And it essentially admits that there is a lot more going on there than the weekly Sabbath. Which of course, the people he is addressing, who don't agree with him, already well know, because they don't think that the point of the author is to highlight the weekly Sabbath observance.

Note particularly where he admits the point is actually broader, but it "includes" the weekly Sabbath.

Hebrews 4:10. Verses 9 and 10 say: “There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.” Verse 10 clearly alludes to the Sabbath: it is when God rested. The verse certainly has a broader meaning since the rest of faith also is contained there. But the Sabbath is included by the reference to God’s rest from His own labor after Creation week.

The main point of the whole section is that broader point, which is why there is this disagreement among Adventist scholars in the first place. As the quote from the SDA Bible Commentary notes:

If the conclusion of the extended argument beginning with ch. 3:7 is that Sabbathkeeping remains for the people of God, it would seem that the writer of Hebrews is guilty of a non sequitur.

Now as to the dissertation, it is certainly more developed, as would be expected of a dissertation treatment, as opposed to an article.

I am not sure that Adventist scholars will find his discourse analysis to be persuasive, but we will have to see, as it is novel.

This statement points out some weaknesses of it:

Since structurally these two units are related, the proposed thesis that they are also topically related has been valuable. Only by recognizing the structure does continuity in content become evident and explanatory since the theme of rest as such does not appear again in the composition.

The purpose of looking at Sabbatismos usage in this particular thread, of course, was to discuss the usage of lexicons to show the range of usage. Then you have to look at context. So there is no point in belaboring it further for now here.

But we will see if Adventist scholarship starts adopting the new discourse analysis postulation.

tall73 · Wednesday at 9:34 PM

Capbook2 said:
The conversation happen before the saints are caught up, as to last phrase of 1Thessalonians 4:17, "and so we shall always be with the Lord,"
due to the presence of the wicked in the conversation proves it happen before, as no wicked will always be with the Lord.

Not sure that follows either way, as it is only the believers stated to be caught up with Him to meet Him in the air. So whether they meet Him to escort Him, and then the judgment occurred, as we saw other usage suggest, or were caught up after the conversation, once the judgment was complete, that doesn't seem to be determined by the wicked being present.

And the righteous are with Jesus even during their appearance before the judgment seat. And then they are told they will inherit.

Let's look at some other texts, and let me know whether they happen before or after the Thessalonians text regarding being caught up to meet the Lord in the air:

Romans 14:10-13

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the LORD,

Every knee shall bow to Me,

And every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 (NKJV)

We will stand before the judgment seat
we kneel,
bow
confess
give an account

When does this happen, before or after the catching up to meet the Lord in Thessalonian?

2 Corinthians 5:10

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (NKJV)

We appear before the judgment seat of Christ
We receive according to what we have done.

When does this happen, before or after the catching up to meet the Lord in Thessalonian?

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

When does this happen, before or after the catching up to meet the Lord in Thessalonian?

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

When does this happen, before or after the catching up to meet the Lord in Thessalonian?

Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

The servants appear before Him. They give an account of their stewardship of the talents He gave. He rewards those who were faithful.

When does this happen, before or after the catching up to meet the Lord in Thessalonian?

Capbook2 · Thursday at 1:31 AM

tall73 said:
I was referring to SabbathBlessing's AI comment above.

But also, I did cite the SDA Bible Commentary. And of course, they quoted Ellen White.

There is a different standard for publishing a dissertation, which aims at new research, and publishing a commentary which is intended to give, in the view of the editorial team, etc. a view of the denomination.

But apart from that the whole point of majority/minority is that there is both. So yes, obviously some do take the other view.

You might want to look at one of Ellen White's references to this:

And thus the mountain from which the words of benediction were spoken came to be known as the mount of blessing. But it was not upon Gerizim that the words were spoken which have come as a benediction to a sinning and sorrowing world. Israel fell short of the high ideal which had been set before her. Another than Joshua must guide His people to the true rest of faith. No longer is Gerizim known as the mount of the Beatitudes, but that unnamed mountain beside the Lake of Gennesaret, where Jesus spoke the words of blessing to His disciples and the multitude.
Ellen White--Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing Chapter 1

What does she mean by the underlined sentence? And why would they quote it in the SDA Bible commentary for that section of Hebrews?

I won't add to that so that I am not accused of misrepresenting. But you can read on it.

Actually misrepresentation had been done as nothing in the whole paragraph below that Hebrews 4:9 was quoted.
Through context, the whole paragraph speaks about "blessing" if they obey the commandments of God, and "curse" to those who will disobey.
On another hand Joshua must guide God's people to the true rest of faith, I believe obedience to God's commandments, and nothing about Hebrews 4:9 as places mentioned Gerizim and Gennesaret were literal places.

More than fourteen centuries before Jesus was born in Bethlehem, the children of Israel gathered in the fair vale of Shechem, and from the mountains on either side the voices of the priests were heard proclaiming the blessings and the curses--"a blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God: . . . and a curse, if ye will not obey." Deuteronomy 11:27, 28. And thus the mountain from which the words of benediction were spoken came to be known as the mount of blessing. But it was not upon Gerizim that the words were spoken which have come as a benediction to a sinning and sorrowing world. Israel fell short of the high ideal which had been set before her. Another than Joshua must guide His people to the true rest of faith. No longer is Gerizim known as the mount of the Beatitudes, but that unnamed mountain beside the Lake of Gennesaret, where Jesus spoke the words of blessing to His disciples and the multitude.

tall73 said:
Exactly, which is why they looked at the verbal form in the SDA Bible commentary primarily. You have the verb to baptize, and then the noun, a baptism. But because of its nature of being a substantive describing an action it is indefinite.

And the same is true here. It is a sabbath-like rest. That may be the weekly Sabbath, or a different Sabbath, or as used in Origin a more abstract meaning of sabbath rest. But that is what the majority of scholars think is being done in Hebrews 4 as well, a more abstract reference to spiritual rest that we enter "today" as we rest from our works.

I don't think Joshua's "rest" as spiritual, again through your quotation of EGW, Gerizim and Gennesaret were literal places and the second definition of "Sabbatismos" as - rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come, the perpetual sabbath "rest" to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son.
Through definition, I believe it doesn't add up.

tall73 said:
Right, always....except...the times it doesn't. And of course Chrysostom applies Hebrews 4 as referring to other than the weekly Sabbath, as does the SDA Bible commentary.

I may agree with EGW's Bible commentary, but I wholly agree that made clear in the 18th SDA Fundamental belief that "the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested," as knowledge is progressive.

tall73 said:
Also, you ought to look up those "pejorative" statements. Some could even apply to more than just the weekly.

Yes, it was described as sometimes.

tall73 said:
Certainly no one doubts that the context of Hebrews 4 makes reference to God's cessation from His creative work. The point being that the rest being spoken of, entered by faith, a resting from works, that we enter "today" is an additional rest to that referred to in the Sabbath command, to rest once per week on the seventh day, in the context.

From this conclusion, we seems in agreement.

tall73 said:
They are not the same though. Because the sabbatismos in the context of Hebrews 4 is ongoing, entered "today", rather than intermittent on the 7th day.

I believe TDNT (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament) was being authored by more than 100 international scholars and defined "σαββατισμός sabbatismos" and on the other the Sabbath rest which is to be observed as a cessation from all work on the seventh day etc.

tall73 said:
Both refer back to God's rest at creation, however. And certainly they are related concepts of resting (but so were the Day of Atonement, Trumpets, etc.)

I believe "Day of Atonement" wasn't listed as one definition of "Sabbatismos."

tall73 said:
Right, which is ongoing, and not once a week.

To confirm, is your response above refer to the definition of "Sabbatismos" below?

G4520 (EDNT)
σαββατισμός sabbatismos
1. it designates more closely what the people of God should expect when they enter the
of God (cf. 4:9 with v. 6 a). Just as God rested on the seventh day of creation from all his works,
2. so also will believers find the eternal sabbath rest on the day of the completion of salvation in God's "place of rest"
(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament © 1990 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)

tall73 said:
Right, in contrast. Not in contrast as regards to resting. But as it is used in Hebrews it is perpetual, ongoing, not once a week.

Again to confirm, I believe response was given without reading Exodus 16:30 the reference of Hebrews 4:9.
For ready reference I'll quote the text below.

Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

G4520 (Vine's Expository Dictionary)
1. Sabbath-keeping," is used in Heb 4:9, RV, "a sabbath rest," KJV marg., "a keeping of a sabbath" (akin to sabbatizo, "to keep the Sabbath," used, e. g., in Ex 16:30)
2. the perpetual sabbath "rest" to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this sabbath "rest" is the "rest" of God Himself, 4:10,

tall73 said:
Right, notice the indefinite--a sabbath rest.

The word "remain" in Hebrews 4:9, bears Strong#G620, in Greek "ἀπολείπω apoleipō" defined by Bible Lexicon as - to forsake or desert, to leave, to leave behind.

To those who believe that the Sabbatismos as "the perpetual sabbath "rest" to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, or indefinite sabbath rest."
And through the definition of "remain," was the "eternal sabbath rest" once forsaken or being left behind?
It really would be eisegesis.

G620
ἀπολείπω apoleipō
Thayer Definition:
1) to leave, to leave behind
2) to desert or forsake

Capbook2 · Thursday at 2:08 AM

tall73 said:
If a word carries one known meaning, functioning as a technical term, then it does strengthen a case. But if it has multiple known meanings, then it is absolutely necessary to look at the meanings in context or you won't be able to know what is being discussed.

So we referenced that sabbatismos is derived from the verbal form, as the dissertation you quoted from points out, and for that reason the SDA Bible commentary looked at the verbal form.

We noted an instance of both the verbal and the noun form regarding uses for the Day of Atonement, for example. If you don't look at the context, and just read in weekly Sabbath, then it won't make sense of the text. The text talks about a Sabbath once per year on a certain date. It is clearly not the weekly Sabbath. So the context didn't make it less clear, but more clear, and just putting in the most common usage wouldn't make sense of the text here.

Or to put it another way, they note the ke meaning is "rest". The weekly Sabbath is part of that key meaning, but a particular application of it.

But anytime a word has multiple potential meanings, then it is necessary to look at context. And any time you come across new usage, you have to have an open mind as to what the author is saying.

Many verses have no variants, and if you wish to discuss individual variants we can.

Exactly. That is the top point for a reason.

Only one verse contains the word, and it is in a two chapter section that is all talking about one thing--the rest entered by faith "today" that he is inviting them to enter.

You did consult them. And there are multiple ones, so it is back to context. A dictionalry tells you the possibilities.

As there are just two definition of "Sabbatismos" in Hebrews 4:9, may we dig deeper of what really is the context.

As the word "remain" which bears Strong#G620, in Greek "ἀπολείπω apoleipō" defined by Bible Lexicons as - to forsake or desert, to leave behind, be left etc.

To those who interpret that "Sabbatismos" as "eternal Sabbath rest," may we know even one Bible text that state the "eternal Sabbath rest" was forsaken or to forsake, left behind or to leave behind, be left and etc?

So that we could arrive to the true context of the verse.

This is now to illustrate the importance of context in this verse after consulting Bible Lexicons.

Heb 4:9 SoG686 there remainsG620 a SabbathG4520 restG4520 for the peopleG2992 of GodG2316.

G620 (Thayer Greek-English Lexicon)
ἀπολείπω apoleipō
1) to leave, to leave behind
2) to desert or forsake

G620 (Strong's Expanded Grekk-Hebrew Dictionary)
ἀπολείπω apoleipō
to leave behind (passively, remain); by implication, to forsake:
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

G621 (EDNT)
ἀπολείπω apoleipō
Jude 6: "left their proper dwelling"; 2 Tim 4:13,20; Titus 1:5; pass. in Heb 4:6,9; 10:26: be left.
(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament © 1990 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)

Capbook2 · Thursday at 3:27 AM

tall73 said:
Not sure that follows either way, as it is only the believers stated to be caught up with Him to meet Him in the air. So whether they meet Him to escort Him, and then the judgment occurred, as we saw other usage suggest, or were caught up after the conversation, once the judgment was complete, that doesn't seem to be determined by the wicked being present.

Yes, as you state only believers to be caught up, that proves the conversation with the wicked happen before the saints will meet the Lord in the air. The before and after can also be determined by the presence of the wicked, let me elaborate.
1. The presence of the two, saints and wicked being divided happens first, before
2. The saints to be caught up and they shall always be with the Lord
3. As no wicked shall always be with the Lord, their presence is only in number 1.

tall73 said:
And the righteous are with Jesus even during their appearance before the judgment seat. And then they are told they will inherit.

Let's look at some other texts, and let me know whether they happen before or after the Thessalonians text regarding being caught up to meet the Lord in the air:

Romans 14:10-13
10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:
“As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 (NKJV)

We will stand before the judgment seat

we kneel,

bow

confess

give an account

When does this happen, before or after the catching up to meet the Lord in Thessalonian?

As for me, quoted verses to happen before 1Thessalonians 4, as judgement to be done before the execution. As I believe 1Thessalonians 4, is the execution of the judgement.

tall73 said:
2 Corinthians 5:10

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (NKJV)

We appear before the judgment seat of Christ

We receive according to what we have done.

When does this happen, before or after the catching up to meet the Lord in Thessalonian?

Again, as for me judgement to happen before the execution of 1Thessalonians 4.

tall73 said:
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

When does this happen, before or after the catching up to meet the Lord in Thessalonian?

Again, as for me judgement to happen before the execution of 1Thessalonians 4.

tall73 said:
1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

When does this happen, before or after the catching up to meet the Lord in Thessalonian?

Again, as for me judgement to happen before the execution of 1Thessalonians 4.

tall73 said:
Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

The servants appear before Him. They give an account of their stewardship of the talents He gave. He rewards those who were faithful.

When does this happen, before or after the catching up to meet the Lord in Thessalonian?

Again, as for me judgement to happen before the execution of 1Thessalonians 4.
Do you believe verse 30, I colored blue above, the "And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," already happened?

As the judgement begin in the household of God (1Pet 4:17), and Jesus was given authority to execute judgement (John 5:27) I believe as stated in 1Thessalonians 4, and other verses of the same context.

The word "execute" which bears Strong#G4160, in Greek "ποιέω poieō" defined by Bible Lexicon as - to cause results to exist - 'to produce results, to cause results.

By definition, I believe 1 Thessalonians 4 and other verses of the same context, be the execution of the judgement made beforehand.
As the execution (to produce results) of judgement, the saints to be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

John 5:27 and He gaveG1325 Him authorityG1849 to R1executeG4160 judgmentG2920, becauseG3754 He is N1the SonG5207 of ManG444.

G4160
ποιέω poieō
to cause results to exist - 'to produce results, to cause results.
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)

tall73 · Thursday at 7:36 AM

Capbook2 said:
Yes, as you state only believers to be caught up, that proves the conversation with the wicked happen before the saints will meet the Lord in the air. The before and after can also be determined by the presence of the wicked, let me elaborate.
1. The presence of the two, saints and wicked being divided happens first, before
2. The saints to be caught up and they shall always be with the Lord
3. As no wicked shall always be with the Lord, their presence is only in number 1.

We agree that the wicked are not caught up either way to meet the Lord. They would not greet the Lord in any case, because they know their judgment is at hand. I still see possibility for the conversation coming before or after, because if the saints greet the Lord as He approaches earth, similar to the usage in the other two texts, they are still with the Lord from that point, even while standing before Him in judgment.

Capbook2 said:
As for me, quoted verses to happen before 1Thessalonians 4, as judgement to be done before the execution. As I believe 1Thessalonians 4, is the execution of the judgement.

Again, as for me judgement to happen before the execution of 1Thessalonians 4.

Again, as for me judgement to happen before the execution of 1Thessalonians 4.

Again, as for me judgement to happen before the execution of 1Thessalonians 4.

Again, as for me judgement to happen before the execution of 1Thessalonians 4.

The reason I ask about the conversations is that you have now agreed that discussion with particular individuals about their use of talents, about their care for Jesus in the person of the people in need, regarding whether those who performed various feats actually knew Jesus or were workers of iniquity, etc. as well as the bowing, confessing, kneeling, and the revealing of the secrets of the hearts all happen prior to the saints being caught up.

How long do you think all this takes?

I am not particular about whether it happens before or after the catching up of the saints, though I would think after by the nature of what I think is happening with their being caught up, based on the usage.

And I agree all of those conversations happen at Jesus' second coming.

But you have just relocated the IJ from 1844 to the time of Jesus' coming. I agree with that of course, as the text states it. But I would not think you would agree with it. And if it has taken the heavenly intelligences since 1844 to go through the books so far, how long will this take with conversations with each person regarding all these things?

Capbook2 said:
Do you believe verse 30, I colored blue above, the "And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," already happened?

Already happened at the time of the catching up? Not sure either way, though based on the usage, probably happens after.

Capbook2 said:
As the judgement begin in the household of God (1Pet 4:17), and Jesus was given authority to execute judgement (John 5:27) I believe as stated in 1Thessalonians 4, and other verses of the same context.

Peter's time was long before 1844 of course. Put the text in context.

Capbook2 said:
By definition, I believe 1 Thessalonians 4 and other verses of the same context, be the execution of the judgement made beforehand.

Certainly Jesus knows His own sheep from the beginning.

But here we have Him conducting judgment and questioning, and confessing, and presenting what they did and did not do right there, before His throne, as spelled out in the various texts.

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

It is at the coming of Jesus that He brings to light the things now hidden. Then He pronounces judgment, once He has done so.

tall73 · Thursday at 6:57 PM

Tall said:

You might want to look at one of Ellen White's references to this:

And thus the mountain from which the words of benediction were spoken came to be known as the mount of blessing. But it was not upon Gerizim that the words were spoken which have come as a benediction to a sinning and sorrowing world. Israel fell short of the high ideal which had been set before her. Another than Joshua must guide His people to the true rest of faith. No longer is Gerizim known as the mount of the Beatitudes, but that unnamed mountain beside the Lake of Gennesaret, where Jesus spoke the words of blessing to His disciples and the multitude.

Ellen White--Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing Chapter 1

What does she mean by the underlined sentence? And why would they quote it in the SDA Bible commentary for that section of Hebrews?

I won't add to that so that I am not accused of misrepresenting. But you can read on it.

Capbook2 said:
Actually misrepresentation had been done as nothing in the whole paragraph below that Hebrews 4:9 was quoted.
Through context, the whole paragraph speaks about "blessing" if they obey the commandments of God, and "curse" to those who will disobey.
On another hand Joshua must guide God's people to the true rest of faith, I believe obedience to God's commandments, and nothing about Hebrews 4:9 as places mentioned Gerizim and Gennesaret were literal places.

I told you to look into the statement, and didn't elaborate, because I didn't want to be accused of misrepresentation. You did look into the statement, so how did I mislead you?

And as I noted, it was The SDA Bible Commentary that quoted her. If that is an issue you can of course blame them.

You are the one who has to explain why those who believe in the Sabbath, and have an incentive to make the text about it, did not do so in that commentary. And it is up to you to explain why Cortez did not do so later either when quoting that commentary in the Sabbath School lesson.

Capbook2 said:
More than fourteen centuries before Jesus was born in Bethlehem, the children of Israel gathered in the fair vale of Shechem, and from the mountains on either side the voices of the priests were heard proclaiming the blessings and the curses--"a blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God: . . . and a curse, if ye will not obey." Deuteronomy 11:27, 28. And thus the mountain from which the words of benediction were spoken came to be known as the mount of blessing. But it was not upon Gerizim that the words were spoken which have come as a benediction to a sinning and sorrowing world. Israel fell short of the high ideal which had been set before her. Another than Joshua must guide His people to the true rest of faith. No longer is Gerizim known as the mount of the Beatitudes, but that unnamed mountain beside the Lake of Gennesaret, where Jesus spoke the words of blessing to His disciples and the multitude.

There is nothing there that changes what was quoted by the SDA Bible Commentary, and by me. They assume you know what Gerizim is, and what happened there.

Capbook2 said:
I don't think Joshua's "rest" as spiritual, again through your quotation of EGW, Gerizim and Gennesaret were literal places and the second definition of "Sabbatismos" as - rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come, the perpetual sabbath "rest" to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son.
Through definition, I believe it doesn't add up.

I don't think I understand what you said. But going on what I think you said, Ellen White indicated Joshua did not lead them into true spiritual rest. He did lead them into the land of Canaan. But there is a greater rest of faith that they can enter into, yet unfulfilled even after Joshua led them into the promised land. Hence it is still held out in the Psalms. And it is that same rest he has been talking about that is in view here.

I spelled out the whole section earlier. You didn't interact with it. But ultimately, your issue is with those Adventist scholars who think sabbatismos is not talking about the weekly Sabbath. And if you cannot understand why they think that, you should read what they say more. Even if you don't agree, you can understand their argumentation, just as I read the sources you provided to understand their reasoning. And you can read Ellen White's statement again too, with as much context as you like.

Because her point is that the true rest of faith was brought about by Christ, that there was still something to be entered into through Him.

The recipients of the book of Hebrews were warned because they were in danger of falling away. They had need of standing by faith, and not falling back. And that is the burden of the exhortation throughout. Just as those on the verge of going into the promised land failed due to lack of faith.

Capbook2 said:
I may agree with EGW's Bible commentary, but I wholly agree that made clear in the 18th SDA Fundamental belief that "the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested," as knowledge is progressive.

We can certainly discuss that in another thread. I am not here in this thread discussing the nature of the inspiration of Ellen White. We got onto this because of the use of lexicons. And it was the SDA commentary that quoted her. Probably because they knew Adventists would listen to her.

Capbook2 said:
From this conclusion, we seems in agreement.

Not sure we are actually understanding each other, but I will spell it out a different way to see.

God ceased from His creative works.

The Sabbath is a weekly memorial that looks back to that.

But so is the Sabbatismos of Hebrews 4. It is referring back to the whole argument. It is entering God's rest by resting from our works, resting in faith. And by doing so, instead of falling back, we continue on to what God has in store.

We are entering God's rest since creation, by resting from our own works. And it is entered today.

He characterizes it as a sabbath rest--not a weekly sabbath rest every 7 days for 24 hours, but a rest from our works all the time, trusting in God by faith, and therefore persevering in what He wants.

The team that wrote the SDA Bible commentary, do of course still believe that that resting in faith will lead one to keeping the weekly Sabbath, a 24 hour memorial every 7 days. They just don't see it referenced in this passage.

Tall73 said:

They are not the same though. Because the sabbatismos in the context of Hebrews 4 is ongoing, entered "today", rather than intermittent on the 7th day.

Both refer back to God's rest at creation, however. And certainly they are related concepts of resting (but so were the Day of Atonement, Trumpets, etc.)

Capbook2 said:
I believe "Day of Atonement" wasn't listed as one definition of "Sabbatismos."

Who said it was? But as you noted it is derived from the verbal form which did refer to such. It is a "sabbath rest". And that can be any type of Sabbath. Whether that is one of the three different rests spoken of by Origin, or the weekly sabbath, as spoken of by other references, or the reference in Hebrews 4 which Chrysostom--a native Greek speaker, recognized to be about something other than the weekly Sabbath because of the context.

Capbook2 said:
To confirm, is your response above refer to the definition of "Sabbatismos" below?

G4520 (EDNT)
σαββατισμός sabbatismos
1. it designates more closely what the people of God should expect when they enter the
of God (cf. 4:9 with v. 6 a). Just as God rested on the seventh day of creation from all his works,
2. so also will believers find the eternal sabbath rest on the day of the completion of salvation in God's "place of rest"
(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament © 1990 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)

G4520 (EDNT)

σαββατισμός sabbatismos

1. it designates more closely what the people of God should expect when they enter the

of God (cf. 4:9 with v. 6 a). Just as God rested on the seventh day of creation from all his works,

Resting from their works as God did His.

2. so also will believers find the eternal sabbath rest on the day of the completion of salvation in God's "place of rest"

If they continue in faith they will go on to what God has called them, the true rest with God that exceeds what Joshua led the Israelites into. Joshua didn't lead them into the true rest. It was still available "today" in the time of the Psalmist, and the author is urging them to enter.

Capbook2 said:
Again to confirm, I believe response was given without reading Exodus 16:30 the reference of Hebrews 4:9.
For ready reference I'll quote the text below.

Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

G4520 (Vine's Expository Dictionary)
1. Sabbath-keeping," is used in Heb 4:9, RV, "a sabbath rest," KJV marg., "a keeping of a sabbath" (akin to sabbatizo, "to keep the Sabbath," used, e. g., in Ex 16:30)

All that says is that it is akin to the verb form, as just discussed. It means "a keeping of sabbath".

Note the indefinite nature.

Capbook2 said:
2. the perpetual sabbath "rest" to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this sabbath "rest" is the "rest" of God Himself, 4:10,

Yes, uninterrupted. They refer to Hebrews 4:10. They think that is what is being spoken of, not the weekly 24 hour rest.

Capbook2 said:
The word "remain" in Hebrews 4:9, bears Strong#G620, in Greek "ἀπολείπω apoleipō" defined by Bible Lexicon as - to forsake or desert, to leave, to leave behind.

To those who believe that the Sabbatismos as "the perpetual sabbath "rest" to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, or indefinite sabbath rest."
And through the definition of "remain," was the "eternal sabbath rest" once forsaken or being left behind?
It really would be eisegesis.

G620
ἀπολείπω apoleipō
Thayer Definition:
1) to leave, to leave behind
2) to desert or forsake

The invitation to enter true spiritual rest by faith remained in the days of the Psalmist, because Joshua led them to the promised land, but the true rest of faith rejected by those who turned back in the wilderness due to lack of faith was still available. It remained from the day of the Psalmist, to their own, and the author is urging them to go in.

That is in fact not eisegesis at all but the continuation of the whole argument. And I spelled all that out looking at the whole section. But you haven't interacted with that.

But even the Adventist scholars who wrote the SDA Bible Commentary could see it. And Cortex could see it. And that is why it was still published in the Sabbath School study materials.

tall73 · Thursday at 7:08 PM

tall73 said:

If a word carries one known meaning, functioning as a technical term, then it does strengthen a case. But if it has multiple known meanings, then it is absolutely necessary to look at the meanings in context or you won't be able to know what is being discussed.

So we referenced that sabbatismos is derived from the verbal form, as the dissertation you quoted from points out, and for that reason the SDA Bible commentary looked at the verbal form.

We noted an instance of both the verbal and the noun form regarding uses for the Day of Atonement, for example. If you don't look at the context, and just read in weekly Sabbath, then it won't make sense of the text. The text talks about a Sabbath once per year on a certain date. It is clearly not the weekly Sabbath. So the context didn't make it less clear, but more clear, and just putting in the most common usage wouldn't make sense of the text here.

Or to put it another way, they note the ke meaning is "rest". The weekly Sabbath is part of that key meaning, but a particular application of it.

But anytime a word has multiple potential meanings, then it is necessary to look at context. And any time you come across new usage, you have to have an open mind as to what the author is saying.

Many verses have no variants, and if you wish to discuss individual variants we can.

Exactly. That is the top point for a reason.

Only one verse contains the word, and it is in a two chapter section that is all talking about one thing--the rest entered by faith "today" that he is inviting them to enter.

You did consult them. And there are multiple ones, so it is back to context. A dictionalry tells you the possibilities.

Capbook2 said:
As there are just two definition of "Sabbatismos" in Hebrews 4:9, may we dig deeper of what really is the context.

As the word "remain" which bears Strong#G620, in Greek "ἀπολείπω apoleipō" defined by Bible Lexicons as - to forsake or desert, to leave behind, be left etc.

To those who interpret that "Sabbatismos" as "eternal Sabbath rest," may we know even one Bible text that state the "eternal Sabbath rest" was forsaken or to forsake, left behind or to leave behind, be left and etc?

So that we could arrive to the true context of the verse.

You don't have to look very far. It was part of his argument, all addressed when I discussed the whole section, but you didn't interact with it.

Hebrews 3:19 - 4:3

19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

1 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest (ESV)

They received the good news of the gospel, and took their stand, but now the recipients of this message were in danger of falling away due to lack of faith, and not growing to maturity. He says they still can enter the rest spoken of by the Psalmist, and continue on to what God had called them, rather than to fall back as they did in the wilderness.

Capbook2 · 2026-07-24T01:36:56-0500

tall73 said:
But you have just relocated the IJ from 1844 to the time of Jesus' coming. I agree with that of course, as the text states it. But I would not think you would agree with it. And if it has taken the heavenly intelligences since 1844 to go through the books so far, how long will this take with conversations with each person regarding all these things?

I think I've not relocated the IJ, as it is a "judgement," the conversation about the dividing is the execution of the judgement made beforehand.

Capbook2 · 2026-07-24T02:38:12-0500

tall73 said:
Tall said:

You might want to look at one of Ellen White's references to this:

And thus the mountain from which the words of benediction were spoken came to be known as the mount of blessing. But it was not upon Gerizim that the words were spoken which have come as a benediction to a sinning and sorrowing world. Israel fell short of the high ideal which had been set before her. Another than Joshua must guide His people to the true rest of faith. No longer is Gerizim known as the mount of the Beatitudes, but that unnamed mountain beside the Lake of Gennesaret, where Jesus spoke the words of blessing to His disciples and the multitude.
Ellen White--Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing Chapter 1

What does she mean by the underlined sentence? And why would they quote it in the SDA Bible commentary for that section of Hebrews?

I won't add to that so that I am not accused of misrepresenting. But you can read on it.

I told you to look into the statement, and didn't elaborate, because I didn't want to be accused of misrepresentation. You did look into the statement, so how did I mislead you?

I did look your underlined statement about Joshua, And I need to see the whole paragraph to analyze what really is the context.
My impression of misrepresentation is about what I colored blue below was unquoted but part of the whole paragraph.

More than fourteen centuries before Jesus was born in Bethlehem, the children of Israel gathered in the fair vale of Shechem, and from the mountains on either side the voices of the priests were heard proclaiming the blessings and the curses--"a blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God: . . . and a curse, if ye will not obey." Deuteronomy 11:27, 28. And thus the mountain from which the words of benediction were spoken came to be known as the mount of blessing. But it was not upon Gerizim that the words were spoken which have come as a benediction to a sinning and sorrowing world. Israel fell short of the high ideal which had been set before her. Another than Joshua must guide His people to the true rest of faith. No longer is Gerizim known as the mount of the Beatitudes, but that unnamed mountain beside the Lake of Gennesaret, where Jesus spoke the words of blessing to His disciples and the multitude.

tall73 said:
And as I noted, it was The SDA Bible Commentary that quoted her. If that is an issue you can of course blame them.

You are the one who has to explain why those who believe in the Sabbath, and have an incentive to make the text about it, did not do so in that commentary. And it is up to you to explain why Cortez did not do so later either when quoting that commentary in the Sabbath School lesson.

There is nothing there that changes what was quoted by the SDA Bible Commentary, and by me. They assume you know what Gerizim is, and what happened there.

I don't think I understand what you said. But going on what I think you said, Ellen White indicated Joshua did not lead them into true spiritual rest. He did lead them into the land of Canaan. But there is a greater rest of faith that they can enter into, yet unfulfilled even after Joshua led them into the promised land. Hence it is still held out in the Psalms. And it is that same rest he has been talking about that is in view here.

I spelled out the whole section earlier. You didn't interact with it. But ultimately, your issue is with those Adventist scholars who think sabbatismos is not talking about the weekly Sabbath. And if you cannot understand why they think that, you should read what they say more. Even if you don't agree, you can understand their argumentation, just as I read the sources you provided to understand their reasoning. And you can read Ellen White's statement again too, with as much context as you like.

Because her point is that the true rest of faith was brought about by Christ, that there was still something to be entered into through Him.

The recipients of the book of Hebrews were warned because they were in danger of falling away. They had need of standing by faith, and not falling back. And that is the burden of the exhortation throughout. Just as those on the verge of going into the promised land failed due to lack of faith.

We can certainly discuss that in another thread. I am not here in this thread discussing the nature of the inspiration of Ellen White. We got onto this because of the use of lexicons. And it was the SDA commentary that quoted her. Probably because they knew Adventists would listen to her.

Not sure we are actually understanding each other, but I will spell it out a different way to see.

God ceased from His creative works.

The Sabbath is a weekly memorial that looks back to that.

But so is the Sabbatismos of Hebrews 4. It is referring back to the whole argument. It is entering God's rest by resting from our works, resting in faith. And by doing so, instead of falling back, we continue on to what God has in store.

We are entering God's rest since creation, by resting from our own works. And it is entered today.

He characterizes it as a sabbath rest--not a weekly sabbath rest every 7 days for 24 hours, but a rest from our works all the time, trusting in God by faith, and therefore persevering in what He wants.

The team that wrote the SDA Bible commentary, do of course still believe that that resting in faith will lead one to keeping the weekly Sabbath, a 24 hour memorial every 7 days. They just don't see it referenced in this passage.

Tall73 said:
They are not the same though. Because the sabbatismos in the context of Hebrews 4 is ongoing, entered "today", rather than intermittent on the 7th day.

Both refer back to God's rest at creation, however. And certainly they are related concepts of resting (but so were the Day of Atonement, Trumpets, etc.)

Who said it was? But as you noted it is derived from the verbal form which did refer to such. It is a "sabbath rest". And that can be any type of Sabbath. Whether that is one of the three different rests spoken of by Origin, or the weekly sabbath, as spoken of by other references, or the reference in Hebrews 4 which Chrysostom--a native Greek speaker, recognized to be about something other than the weekly Sabbath because of the context.

G4520 (EDNT)

σαββατισμός sabbatismos
1. it designates more closely what the people of God should expect when they enter the
of God (cf. 4:9 with v. 6 a). Just as God rested on the seventh day of creation from all his works,

Resting from their works as God did His.

2. so also will believers find the eternal sabbath rest on the day of the completion of salvation in God's "place of rest"
(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament © 1990 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)

If they continue in faith they will go on to what God has called them, the true rest with God that exceeds what Joshua led the Israelites into. Joshua didn't lead them into the true rest. It was still available "today" in the time of the Psalmist, and the author is urging them to enter.

All that says is that it is akin to the verb form, as just discussed. It means "a keeping of sabbath".

Note the indefinite nature.

Yes, uninterrupted. They refer to Hebrews 4:10. They think that is what is being spoken of, not the weekly 24 hour rest.

The invitation to enter true spiritual rest by faith remained in the days of the Psalmist, because Joshua led them to the promised land, but the true rest of faith rejected by those who turned back in the wilderness due to lack of faith was still available. It remained from the day of the Psalmist, to their own, and the author is urging them to go in.

That is in fact not eisegesis at all but the continuation of the whole argument. And I spelled all that out looking at the whole section. But you haven't interacted with that.

But even the Adventist scholars who wrote the SDA Bible Commentary could see it. And Cortex could see it. And that is why it was still published in the Sabbath School study materials.

I don't know if you believe about God's progressive revelation, as the revelation of Biblical truths not just come at one time.
Proof of that was posted in James White Library, a dissertation of "Katapausis and Sabbatismos in Hebrews 4" as both exegetical and theological in nature.

As to its exegetical interpretation, it did aligned with 100+ international scholars, authored the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament.
And as to its theological interpretation, the dissertation in an Adventist University, also is in agreement with the 100+ international scholars who authored Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

And if indeed verse 9 refer to "eternal sabbath rest," why verse 8 record "another day."
Is "eternal sabbath rest," just another day?

G4520 (EDNT)
σαββατισμός sabbatismos
1. it designates more closely what the people of God should expect when they enter the
of God (cf. 4:9 with v. 6 a). Just as God rested on the seventh day of creation from all his works,
2. so also will believers find the eternal sabbath rest on the day of the completion of salvation in God's "place of rest"
(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament © 1990 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)

G4520 (TDNT)
σαββατισμός sabbatismos
1. The word κατάπαυσις katapausis denotes on the one side the gift of God which Israel would experience in the land as rest from all its enemies round about (Deut 12:9 f. cf. also Deut 25:19; Josh 21:44[42]; 3
2. σαββατισμός sabbatismos and on the other the Sabbath rest which is to be observed as a cessation from all work on the seventh day
(from Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Copyright © 1972-1989 By Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. All rights reserved.)

Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.

Capbook2 · 2026-07-24T03:11:48-0500

tall73 said:
We agree that the wicked are not caught up either way to meet the Lord. They would not greet the Lord in any case, because they know their judgment is at hand. I still see possibility for the conversation coming before or after, because if the saints greet the Lord as He approaches earth, similar to the usage in the other two texts, they are still with the Lord from that point, even while standing before Him in judgment.

The saints by faith, yes, they are in Christ, but the conversation of dividing being executed, judgement was already done beforehand.

tall73 said:
The reason I ask about the conversations is that you have now agreed that discussion with particular individuals about their use of talents, about their care for Jesus in the person of the people in need, regarding whether those who performed various feats actually knew Jesus or were workers of iniquity, etc. as well as the bowing, confessing, kneeling, and the revealing of the secrets of the hearts all happen prior to the saints being caught up.

Agree.

tall73 said:
How long do you think all this takes?

Of course we don't know God's ways, will and when.

tall73 said:
I am not particular about whether it happens before or after the catching up of the saints, though I would think after by the nature of what I think is happening with their being caught up, based on the usage.

And I agree all of those conversations happen at Jesus' second coming.

Yes, the execution of dividing based on the judgement made before that.

tall73 said:
But you have just relocated the IJ from 1844 to the time of Jesus' coming. I agree with that of course, as the text states it. But I would not think you would agree with it. And if it has taken the heavenly intelligences since 1844 to go through the books so far, how long will this take with conversations with each person regarding all these things?

Already happened at the time of the catching up? Not sure either way, though based on the usage, probably happens after.

Peter's time was long before 1844 of course. Put the text in context.

Certainly Jesus knows His own sheep from the beginning.

But here we have Him conducting judgment and questioning, and confessing, and presenting what they did and did not do right there, before His throne, as spelled out in the various texts.

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

It is at the coming of Jesus that He brings to light the things now hidden. Then He pronounces judgment, once He has done so.

Jesus coming would be the execution of the judgement already done, as Jesus judges, it will be according to the motives of the heart, not only the outward action. Also He already foreknow what's our last choice would be.

tall73 · 2026-07-24T07:04:06-0500

Capbook2 said:
I think I've not relocated the IJ, as it is a "judgement," the conversation about the dividing is the execution of the judgement made beforehand.

Discussions with individuals, interrogation regarding talents, objections from those condemned, responses from the Son of Man, kneeling, confessing, bowing, etc. are not just announcements, but are in fact conducting judgements.

Capbook2 said:
Yes, the execution of dividing based on the judgement made before that.

Romans 14:10-13

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the LORD,

Every knee shall bow to Me,

And every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 (NKJV)

No, each are to stand before the judgment seat. Each gives an account. All will kneel all, will bow. And you have no such text showing this prior to Jesus coming.

It is at Jesus' coming that the hidden things are brought to light, the purposes of the heart are disclosed.

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

There is no need to pronounce judgment ahead of time--before the Lord comes. That is true for humans, and for heavenly intelligences. Because it is stated when Jesus reveals the purposes of the heart. It is at His coming.

He has always known His own. And the universe will too after all confess before the throne.

Capbook2 said:
Jesus coming would be the execution of the judgement already done, as Jesus judges, it will be according to the motives of the heart, not only the outward action. Also He already foreknow what's our last choice would be.

We have numerous texts describing interaction, giving account, Him answering their objections, etc. before the throne at His coming. And it is then that the motives of the hearts are stated to be revealed.

We don't have such a description of your IJ. And it would be unnecessary. The heavenly intelligences will have it all figured out after the Son Of Man conducts judgment from His throne.

Adventist Beliefs on Biblical Signs of the End Days.

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Well-Known Member

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Sophia7's husband

Similar threads