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I use “reformed” because I agree much more with reformed theology than with any other but I believe that there is not enough information in scripture to conclusively prove TULIP to the exclusion of everything else. For example, I fully reject synergism as it logically flirts with open theism and I embrace monergism but have problems with Calvin’s interpretation and explanation of unconditional election and limited atonement.
I thought you held limited atonement. Actually, Calvin never taught limited atonement. That has of course been debated.I use “reformed” because I agree much more with reformed theology than with any other but I believe that there is not enough information in scripture to conclusively prove TULIP to the exclusion of everything else. For example, I fully reject synergism as it logically flirts with open theism and I embrace monergism but have problems with Calvin’s interpretation and explanation of unconditional election and limited atonement.
BTW- there are no “Protestants” left since there is nothing to protest. Today anyone can choose what Christian church they want to attend.
He did but at the end it depends on who you ask. Some even accuse him of teaching universalism.
God desires to save everyone (1 Tim 2:3-4). That's what it means when it says He loved the world in such a way He sent His Son.
Can you show how it is derived of my theology? I think it's derived from the context.
www.desiringgod.org
learn.ligonier.org
www.baptistpress.com
Your Biblical understanding seems to be strongly influenced by your philosophy on the will. It's not of a concern to me how it works. My concern is what the Bible teaches.
No, I showed that the passage is about salvation, not about God's restoration of the world. When Moses hung up the serpent the intent of "salvation" was universal, it was for all who had been bitten by snakes (compare with the fall and the cross), but only those who actually looked at the serpent were healed (compare with "whoever believes will be saved").
Can you show by the context that John 3:16-17 is about the restoration of the world? If not, I think you should look into other options.
Granted, the most natural reading is not always the correct one, and we can have different opinions on what is most natural. But most Biblical scholars actually agree with me that the world refers to everyone in the world. There has to be a good reason to understand it differently and so far I have not seen one.
Go to Calvin Institutes chapters 21 to 24 primarily.
You might find this article helpful - John Calvin’s view of Limited Atonement – by Dr. Roger Nicole | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind
That's too bad, I grew up in a city which was maybe 30 to 40 percent Catholic, and whether you were a Catholic or Protestant rarely came up in any conversation. As to your experience, unfortunately children are not always kind to other children. Back in 1863 Pope Pius IX covered the subject, including the salvation of sincere non-Catholics which I have highlighted in bold:
www.papalencyclicals.net
We are not struggling with invincible ignorance about the Catholic Church. I gladly and honestly choose to not be a member of the Catholic Church. How does that affect my salvation?That's too bad, I grew up in a city which was maybe 30 to 40 percent Catholic, and whether you were a Catholic or Protestant rarely came up in any conversation. As to your experience, unfortunately children are not always kind to other children. Back in 1863 Pope Pius IX covered the subject, including the salvation of sincere non-Catholics which I have highlighted in bold:
7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: “If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;”[5] “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;”[6] “He who does not believe will be condemned;”[7] “He who does not believe is already condemned;”[8] “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.”[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are “perverted and self-condemned;”[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them “false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.”[11]
9. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.
Quanto Conficiamur Moerore - Papal Encyclicals
To Our Beloved Sons, S. R. E. Cardinals and to Our Venerable Brothers, the Archbishops and Bishops of Italy. Our Beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, Greetings and Apostolic Benediction. How much cause we have to grieve over the most cruel … <a...
Thank you for the excellent reply. Sadly, it was not just Catholic children who held this opinion, but their parents, as well. They, themselves, did not invent these ideas but received them from religious authorities, and believed them.That's too bad, I grew up in a city which was maybe 30 to 40 percent Catholic, and whether you were a Catholic or Protestant rarely came up in any conversation. As to your experience, unfortunately children are not always kind to other children. Back in 1863 Pope Pius IX covered the subject, including the salvation of sincere non-Catholics which I have highlighted in bold:
7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: “If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;”[5] “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;”[6] “He who does not believe will be condemned;”[7] “He who does not believe is already condemned;”[8] “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.”[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are “perverted and self-condemned;”[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them “false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.”[11]
9. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.
Quanto Conficiamur Moerore - Papal Encyclicals
To Our Beloved Sons, S. R. E. Cardinals and to Our Venerable Brothers, the Archbishops and Bishops of Italy. Our Beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, Greetings and Apostolic Benediction. How much cause we have to grieve over the most cruel … <a...
Isn’t it correct to say that human reason with faith brings one salvation? This would be a point of contention. The Bible states Apostle Paul reasoned with the philosophers on Mars Hill described in Acts but Paul reasoned from the Scriptures. So goes the dispute I believe. Faith Alone or reason and faith.
It's not contradicted at all, Catholics consider Protestants as part of the Catholic Church but who lack the fullness of the faith. The purification spoken of in the Bible, and Catholics consider the Bible God-breathed, should not be mocked.
Therein lies a conundrum. Pious Muslims believe that they are right and one of their pious acts is to annihilate infidels, which includes Jews and Christians, as well as all other non-Muslims. Thus, the deeply pious Islamic terrorists who launched their attack on September 11, 2001 on the Great Satan, the United States, and became martyrs in the process, may find themselves in Christian heaven, instead of Muslim heaven with the 99 virgins promised to them. Interesting. . .
Thanks, will take a look at it.
I asked for a quotation where Calvin says the atonement is limited, not a reference to chapters about election. You can teach God chose the elect before time began, and still hold universal atonement as true. No contradiction there, and that's what confessional Lutherans teach.Go to Calvin Institutes chapters 21 to 24 primarily.
Agree, if a person has the Spirit, the person has been regenerated. My view is however, as I have said, we repent, turn to God and He regenerates us - we receive the Holy Spirit.
Yes, but man needs to respond when God calls. It's not so that man necessarily comes when called.
You are making a conclusion from this verse, I don't make. I think it's the general description of man after the fall. He does not seek God on his own, but still needs to respond when God calls. I don't see a description here of man not being able to respond without being regenerated, but rather that man doesn't seek God on his own.“There is no one who understands, There is no one who seeks out God;”
Romans 3:11 NASB2020
Romans 3:11 (NASB2020) - There is no one who understands, Th - Bible App
There is no one who understands, There is no one who seeks out God;bible.com
So if there is no one that seeks God then how does the unregenerated seek God?
But grace can be resisted. So even we don't respond without God's grace, given grace doesn't necessarily mean a person comes.
I don't see what that has to do with the extent of the atonement.
I cannot tell if everyone has been given enough grace to respond and come to faith or not. But as already stated, given grace doesn't nessesarily mean you respond by coming. Grace can be resisted.
“What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassion.” So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I raised you up, in order to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.”
Romans 9:14-18 NASB2020
Romans 9:14-18 (NASB2020) - What shall we say then? There is no - Bible App
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassibible.com
I know.
Thanks.
Great.
