Sabbath and the Investigative Judgement.

BobRyan said:

This irrefutable detail works against your speculation above.

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No speculation. From my post 15 that you keep ignoring and deflecting. Dan. 7:9-10- The judgement here does not referrer to the world at large, but on the beast (v.11), preparatory to giving the kingdom to the one who was like the Son of man (vs. 13-14).

Nothing here or in the remaining of Daniel 7 talk about an ongoing “judgement”.

Hentenza said:

No speculation. From my post 15 that you keep ignoring and deflecting. Dan. 7:9-10- The judgement here does not referrer to the world at large, but on the beast (v.11), preparatory to giving the kingdom to the one who was like the Son of man (vs. 13-14).

Nothing here or in the remaining of Daniel 7 talk about an ongoing “judgement”.

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read my actual post if you wish to discuss something

BobRyan said:

read my actual post if you wish to discuss something

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Reply to mine first.

Hentenza said:

Reply to mine first.

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yours is post 15
My response is #16

Start reading the content of the posts and replying to the details, then our discussion won't have to keep circling back to the point where you stopped reading

BobRyan said:

yours is post 15
My response is #16

Start reading the content of the posts and replying to the details, then our discussion won't have to keep circling back to the point where you stopped reading

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Hentenza said:

God knows all outcomes, past, present, and future. Omniscience does not refer to past actions only. That would not be omniscience but just knowing history, what happened in the past.

No. The judgement here does not referrer to the world at large, but on the beast (v.11), preparatory to giving the kingdom to the one who was like the Son of man (vs. 13-14).

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BobRyan said:

BobRyan said:
Given that an all knowing God knew from eternity past all outcomes,

as I just said.

in any case as I said the Dan 7:9-10 judgment based on open books and nonGod beings seeing the records such that judgment outcome is directly related to what people actually did ... as Rom 2:4-16 points out... is the time consuming process we are discussing.

The Dan 7 judgment works just as Rom 2 states. The result is as scripture says, some are approved and others are condemned.

Then as Dan 7 states , once it completes, the saints are give relief from persecution and Christ's Kingdom is setup by first crushing wicked humanity.

It is a case of "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:21-22 NASB using the very process Rom 2 describes

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Here are the posts. You nitpicked my post and just tried to speak above me without actually addressing the post. So address my post.

SpudW said:

The saints are included in this judgement, but they are the plaintiffs, not the defendant. They are not the ones being judged.

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I don't know of a single text saying that saints are in heaven accusing others.

Dan 7 judgment passed "in favor of" the saints (vs 21 - 22) and only when it is complete does Christ appear and the saints are no longer persecuted. Until it completes the saints are being hammered by the wicked according to Dan 7


Who is accusing?: In Rev 12 Satan is "The accuser of the brethren" that is cast down.
John 5:22 all judgment has been turned over to the Son of God

In Rom 2 it is the saints (and also the wicked) that are judged by their deeds. Rom 2 shows how it is that the saints prevail.
In 2 Cor 5:9 "we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ to received the recompense for deeds done in the body whether good or bad)

More details in this post #2

Hentenza said:

Here are the posts. You nitpicked my post

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pay attention to the details of the post you just quoted ... and actually respond to the content.

BobRyan said:

pay attention to the details and respond to the content.

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Nothing here to respond to. You continue to deflect.

SpudW said:

OK, instead of calling the saints plaintiffs, let's call them the aggrieved party. No where in Daniel 7 does it indicate that it is the saints that are being judged. We are plainly told that it is the little horn that is being judged.

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It does not say "the saints are being condemned"

But it does say the saints are under direct torment "until judgment is passed in favor of the saints". Dan 7:21-22. It says that at some future point in time indicated by the details in the text, judgment will pass in favor of the saints, even while they are being slam hammered by the wicked.

And when that judgment finally completes then comes the good news

If you are the injured party and the other person seeks only to slander and libel you while also assaulting you, then you actually want a judge to take a look at the case and decide in your favor. You would not view that as a bad thing. In this case it is not the saints having a role in being the judge of others and enforcing justice, it is God. Notice that in the book of Job, Job is not bringing a charge against anyone, he is being abused and misused by others (even his friends).

Rather charges are being made against Job. and the actual life of Job is being evaluated to settle the issue in the court of heaven.

Dan 7:
. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’

The saints look forward to that day.

And Rom 2:4-16 tells us how it plays out.
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek,
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

What reward do we see in Rom 6 for bad deeds?
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That is contrasting eternal life to the second death

SpudW said:

Please direct me to a translation of the Bible that says otherwise. Revelation and Romans are not talking about the vision in Daniel 7.

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I usually quote from NASB or NKJV

They all discuss the doctrine of future judgment for mankind.

BobRyan said:

As stated before (and ignored repeatedly in your posts)
"judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:21-22 most certainly requires Saints to be included in the judgment passed in their favor just as we see proven beyond all doubt in Rom 2:4-16. This irrefutable detail works against your speculation above.

The point remains.

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Not sure why they were not seeing. Your point is clear.

But Is that what it says though?

Judgement given means given the ability to judge. Which makes sense if they are given possession of the Kingdom.

I can explain from the Hebrew how these translations below are closer to what is written if you wish.

(LEB)
Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came and gave judgment to the holy ones of the Most High; and the time arrived and the holy ones took possession of the kingdom.

(SLT) Dan 7:22 Even till that the Ancient of days came, and the judgment was given to the holy ones of the Most High; and the time extending and the holy ones possessed the kingdom.


(YLT) Dan 7:22 till that the Ancient of Days hath come, and judgment is given to the saints of the Most High, and the time hath come, and the saints have strengthened the kingdom.

(TS2009) Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came, and right-ruling was given to the set-apart ones of the Most High, and the time came and the set-apart ones took possession of the reign.

SpudW said:

So you believe that your salvation is based upon your works?

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Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for it is God that works in us both to wil and do His good pleasure.

BobRyan said:

pay attention to the details of the post you just quoted ... and actually respond to the content.

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Patience is joyful endurance in the Greek.

Thank you God in Heaven! May we joyfully endure until the end in and through Christ Jesus.

May the Lord bless us and keep us during this day that He has set apart for us to prepare for His Sabbath!

HIM said:

Not sure why they were not seeing. Your point is clear.

But Is that what it says though?

Judgement given means given the ability to judge. Which makes sense if they are given possession of the Kingdom.

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The sequence seems to be that the saints in Dan 7 are getting slam hammered by the lost until the judgment completes and is passed in favor the saints.

But to your point , once that happens there is a judgment by the saints that we see in Rev 20:3-5 during the millennium that starts the moment they are with Christ on thrones and judging as Rev 20 depicts them That is a total switch from being in that Rom 2:5-16 evaluation while the wicked are tormenting the saints as Dan 7 depicts them

HIM said:

I can explain from the Hebrew how these translations below are closer to what is written if you wish.

(LEB)
Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came and gave judgment to the holy ones of the Most High; and the time arrived and the holy ones took possession of the kingdom.

(SLT) Dan 7:22 Even till that the Ancient of days came, and the judgment was given to the holy ones of the Most High; and the time extending and the holy ones possessed the kingdom.

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I have seen that, but I think it skips over that transition state mentioned in NASB and NKJV, KJV that explains the transition from being slammed by the wicked to actually taking the role in the judgment that Rev 20 says will happen during the millennium.

It also helps us understand where the Rom 2:4-16 and 2 Cor 5:10 form of judgment occurs (where saints are in fact being evaluated as the text says).

It also explains why Christ would wait to take the helm on Earth until that evaluation of just who it going to be raptured is completed in the Dan 7, Rom 2, 2 Cor 5 judgment phase. (not that He does not already know , but that "the place is not fully prepared" in heaven until all heaven has seen the fair and just evaluation)

"I go to prepare a place for you... after that I will come again and receive you to Myself" John 14. That Dan 7 judgment is part of His work in preparing a place for us.

SpudW said:

So you believe that your salvation is based upon your works?

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I believe Christ's statement "by their fruits you shall know them" Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter"
I believe the Rom 2 text just as it reads.

None of that is "the lost being saved by works"

IN the case of Matt 7 the bad tree must first be changed, to produce the good fruit. It is not a case of bad trees managing to make themselves produce good fruit then being seen as good trees.

The saints must first accept the gospel and be born again, only then do they "walk as Christ walked" as 1 John 2 insists.
1 John 5 "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

Obedience is not the door to gaining salvation, it is the fruit of having it.