Adventist Beliefs on Biblical Signs of the End Days.

tall73 said:

The nature of BDAG is to show usage in the literature. Since the usage includes both those who do and do not hold to a literal 1k years, you still have to examine their actual statements.

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tall73 said:

the seventh day of each week the seventh day of each weekWe can certainly agree there was sabbath observance going on, with many references in history, nor does @The Liturgist dispute that since his church acknowledges such, and he rests on Sabbath as he has mentioned a number of times.

But your citation of Sabbatismos in BDAG is a good example of what that lexicon is for. It shows usage.

And then you have to look at context, etc. And the term is used to refer to things other than the weekly Sabbath.

The usage in other literature is important in this case because its use in Hebrews 4 is the only occurrence in the NT.

So let's look at some usage:

Origen On Prayer, 17

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When a man has had vision of these things and has given thought to a week of ages with intent to contemplate a kind of holy sabbath—keeping and a month of ages to see God’s holy new moon, and a year of ages to survey the feasts of the year when every male must appear before the Lord God, and the corresponding years of so many ages to discern the seventh holy year, and seven weekly years of ages to sing a hymn to the Enactor of Laws so great, how can he after such consideration cavil over what is the merest fraction of an hour in the day of such an age, instead of doing everything to become, through his preparation here, worthy of obtaining the needful bread and to receive it while it is today and daily, what daily means being already clear from the foregoing explanations.​

Here Origin relates the word to a week of ages sabbath keeping, which is certainly beyond a description of a literal 7th day Sabbath observance.

And in the case of Hebrews 4 we have a commentary on this passage from a native Greek speaker closer to the time who recognizes the word means a sabbath rest, but does not point to the weekly Sabbath.

Note, I don't quote him in this case so you may consider him authoritative in his theology, but in regards to understanding of the Greek usage:

Some highlights from Chrysostom's comments on Hebrews 3-4:

When David then, he says, speaking at a later period, and after these events, after that generation of men, said, Today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts, that you may not suffer the same things which your forefathers did, and be deprived of the Rest; he evidently said this as of some [future] rest. For if they had received their Rest he says why does He again say to them, Today if you will hear His voice harden not your hearts, as your fathers did? What other rest then is there, except the kingdom of Heaven, of which the Sabbath was an image and type?​

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What then does he say? Hebrews 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. And see how he has summed up the whole argument. He swore, says he, to those former ones, that they should not enter into the rest, and they did not enter in. Then long after their time discoursing to the Jews, he says, Harden not your hearts, as your fathers, showing that there is another rest. For of Palestine we have not to speak: for they were already in possession of it. Nor can he be speaking of the seventh; for surely he was not discoursing about that which had taken place long before. It follows therefore that he hints at some other, that which is rest indeed.​

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And well did he conclude the argument. For he said not rest but Sabbath-keeping; calling the kingdom Sabbath-keeping, by the appropriate name, and that which they rejoiced in and were attracted by.​

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For that is indeed rest, where pain, sorrow and sighing are fled away Isaiah 35:10: where there are neither cares, nor labors, nor struggle, nor fear stunning and shaking the soul; but only that fear of God which is full of delight. There is not, In the sweat of your face you shall eat your bread, nor thorns and thistles Genesis 3:19; no longer, In sorrow you shall bring forth children, and to your husband shall be your desire and he shall rule over you. Genesis 3:16 All is peace, joy, gladness, pleasure, goodness, gentleness. There is no jealousy, nor envy, no sickness, no death whether of the body, or that of the soul. There is no darkness nor night; all [is] day, all light, all things are bright. It is not possible to be weary, it is not possible to be satiated: we shall always persevere in the desire of good things. Homily on Hebrews, John Chrysostom, Arch-bishop of Constantinople.​

He applies it to rest in the kingdom of God.

Moreover, even the SDA Bible commentary notes that the usage in the context of Hebrews is not regarding the weekly Sabbath, but the today rest of salvation spoken of in chapters 3 and 4.. And in so doing they look at the related terms in the LXX:

Accordingly, the fundamental idea expressed by sabbizo in the LXX is that of rest or ceasing from labor or other activity. Hence usage of the related Greek and Hebrew words implies that the noun sabbatismos may denote either the literal Sabbath "rest" or simply "rest" or "cessation" in a more general sense. Thus, a linguistic study of the word sabbatismos in Heb. 4:9 leaves it uncertain whether the weekly Sabbath "rest" is here referred to, or simply "rest or "cessation" in a general sense.​

The writer of Hebrews appears to use katapausis and sabbatismos more or less synonymously. Because Joshua could not lead Israel into spiritual "rest" (katapausis, v. 8), a sabbatismos (v. 9) remains for Christians. Consistency seems to require that what remains be the same as what was there to begin with. Because Joshua did not lead literal Israel into spiritual "rest" would be no reason for the Christian to observe the Sabbath. From vs. 1, 6 it is clear that what remains for the people of God in NT times is a katapausis; in v. 9 it is said that a sabbatismos remains.​

The fact that in the LXX, the Bible of the NT church, Katapauo (Gen. 2:2, 3; Ex. 20:11) and sabbatizo (Ex. 16:30; Lev. 23:32) are used interchangeably to denote the seventh-day Sabbath, would tend to preclude the suggestion that the writer of Hebrews intended to make a distinction between the noun forms of these words in Hebrews 3; 4.​

Furthermore, it may be observed that the section of the book of Hebrews consisting of chs. 3 and 4 opened with an invitation to "consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (ch. 3:1), and closes with an earnest plea to "come boldly" before Him in order to "obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (ch. 4:16). What relationship a protracted argument designed to prove Sabbath observance remains an obligation to the Christian church might have to the declared theme of chs. 3 and 4--the ministry of Christ as our great High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary--is obscure indeed.​

Then the SDA Bible Commentary quotes Ellen White on the subject:

"The rest here spoken of is the rest of grace" (EGW Supplementary Material on Heb. 4:9) From Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)​

And they provide another quote, but I have put in additional context to see even more clearly:

And thus the mountain from which the words of benediction were spoken came to be known as the mount of blessing. But it was not upon Gerizim that the words were spoken which have come as a benediction to a sinning and sorrowing world. Israel fell short of the high ideal which had been set before her. Another than Joshua must guide His people to the true rest of faith. No longer is Gerizim known as the mount of the Beatitudes, but that unnamed mountain beside the Lake of Gennesaret, where Jesus spoke the words of blessing to His disciples and the multitude.​

Ellen White--Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing Chapter 1​

Sabbatismos is not a technical term referring only to the weekly sabbath. Rather, it is a term referring to rest, which can be used of the weekly Sabbath, or other sabbath rests.

But even The SDA Bible commentary and Ellen White acknowledge that the usage in Hebrews points to the rest of faith and grace. It is that "today" rest that we enter into when we rest from our own works.

Now this in itself does not say anything about other various texts in Scripture which speak to the Sabbath. But the term does not settle the argument, and does not always point to the weekly Sabbath.

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tall73 said:

Sure, here you go:

Matthew 25:31-46​

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’​

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ESV)​

Here we have Jesus , the Son of Man, coming in His glory and He sits on His throne and separates the nations. The righteous enter into the kingdom that was prepared for them, and to eternal life, and the wicked go to eternal punishment.

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Capbook2 said:

BDAG is a Bible Lexicon that define original Bible words what it means at the time it was used and the continuing usage through other early Christian literature based on the Bible "word" being defined.

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Capbook2 said:

Yes, it's only in this text that "Sabbatismos" is recorded, but as to the length of response above I noticed nothing was mentioned that "Sabbatismos" is a derivative of G4521 "Sabbaton", which is defined as the seventh day of each week, and as according to Webster, the "Sabbatismos" relies on earlier concepts, which I believe the seventh day of each week the "Sabbaton."

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Capbook2 said:

Yes, Matthew 25:31,34 whom the King say to those on His right, the sheep, the saved, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world," (v34, John 14:2) is also the context of 1Thessalonians 4:16,17, whom will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so they shall always be with the Lord.

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tall73 said:

tall73 said:
The nature of BDAG is to show usage in the literature. Since the usage includes both those who do and do not hold to a literal 1k years, you still have to examine their actual statements.


Right, The lexical range of a word, the possibilities of meaning, are seen in the usage over time. And you can track development of that as well. But the range of meaning then has to be kept in mind when approaching a particular text so you can see how it is being used in that context.

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tall73 said:

I quoted from the SDA Bible commentary discussing the usage of the similar term, in the case of the verb form. The noun sabbaton is of course also related.

The usage of both the verb and noun form can refer to not only the weekly sabbath, but to various sabbaths or rests.

So for instance, here sabbaton is used of the Day of Atonement:

Lev 16:31 σαββαταG4521 N-NPN σαββατωνG4521 N-GPN αναπαυσιςG372 N-NSF αυτηG3778 D-NSF εσταιG1510 V-FMI-3S υμινG4771 P-DP καιG2532 CONJ ταπεινωσετεG5013 V-FAI-2P ταςG3588 T-APF ψυχαςG5590 N-APF υμωνG4771 P-GP νομιμονG3545 A-NSN αιωνιονG166 A-NSN

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tall73 said:

So we are agreed this is the second coming described in Matthew 25, correct? Then we can look at the details.

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Capbook2 said:

Yes, as you use the Greek "Sabbaton" on Leviticus 16:31, still Thayer defined it as it refer to the seventh day of the week.
As the Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, the word "Shabbath" is the proper usage.
Yes, the word "Shabbath" in the context of Leviticus 16:31 refer to the Day of Atonement which always fall on the 10th day of Tishri.
But the word "Shabbath" almost always refers to the seventh day of the week.

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Capbook2 said:

Yes, as the context of millennium being recorded as had duration, it would mean a literal 1000 years. If you agree with science that the millennium figuratively means 365,000 years as they interpret earth already aged billion of years, do that sounds good to us?

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Capbook2 said:

Yes, and the saved will always be with the Lord, from that may we know what Bible text except In Revelation the saints/saved comes down to earth?

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tall73 said:

The Greek term can indicate a weekly Sabbath, a Sabbath such as the Day of Atonement, it can even refer to the whole week. And the verb form, as we saw, was used the same way, and in reference to the sabbatical years.

The use of Sabbatismos in extant literature shows uses relating to the weekly Sabbath and to other types of Sabbaths.

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tall73 said:

In other words, when usage varies you cannot prove a point by vocabulary. Because it can have a range of meaning. It must be about context.
That is why such tools as BDAG exist, to get a feel for the various possibilities of usage.

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tall73 said:

I hold to a 7 day creation, short earth, etc.

And regarding the 1k years, I don't have a position yet. I am willing to consider the Adventist view, and have held it for some time. And I am willing to consider other views. I just want all the texts to match up.

But both sides have an issue with the specific 1k years that they have to address. Many texts speak of the day of judgment. And as Bob Ryan has noted, Adventists often interpret that as the 1k years as well, as it begins and ends with judgment. He references 1 Peter 3, a day is like a thousand years, in the context of the coming of Christ.

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Capbook2 said:

Yes, but in the context of Hebrews 4:9 would you imply that the "Sabbatismos" is a Sabbatical year for the people of God?
Which to my knowledge no or only a few observed. And besides in verse 10 state, "For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His," verse 4 made it clear that "God rested on the seventh day from all His works.

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Capbook2 said:

Yes, context do counts, in this case Hebrews 4:4,9,10 proves that "Sabbatismos" refer to the seventh day whom God rested from all His works.

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Capbook2 said:

As to the correct Bible word definition from credentialed Bible Lexicographers

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Capbook2 said:

is the foundation of sound exegesis abiding the rules of hermeneutics, in this case the "analogy of Scriptures" which means clear Bible verse 4 interpret unclear verse 9, that is if you consider verse 9 confusing.

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Capbook2 said:

Yes, I agree with Bob Ryan.

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tall73 said:

Matthew 25:31-46​

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’​

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ESV)​

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Ok, so when do you see this conversation with the wicked and the righteous as happening, before or after the saints are caught up?

I am not particularly worried either way about whether Jesus touches the ground, though I think there is evidence either way, and I am open to the 1k years being literal or something else, and being in heaven or somewhere else. What I am trying to see is how all the texts match up.

So when do you place this conversation?

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tall73 said:

You can see and respond to my entire discussion on the text. And you can see that the majority of Adventist Scholars, as admitted by the AI post earlier, do not favor the sabbatismos rest spoken of in Hebrews 4 to be the weekly Sabbath.

And that is not because they are anti-sabbath--that would be absurd. Obviously Adventist scholars are not anti-sabbath. It is simply based on the entire argument of chapters 3 and 4.

Again, the reason I pointed it out is it relates to how you use lexicons. The usage determines the range of meanings, but the context determines which meaning is meant in a specific passage. And even the majority of Adventist scholars do not think it is a weekly Sabbath proof text.

In fact, it does not. Because the argument is God resting from His works, and us entering His rest today. Again, you can respond to the various arguments if you want, but you will have to actually go through the context, not just mention that God rested from His works. That is acknowledged by all sides, and especially the Adventist scholars.

If you are speaking of Thayers you didn't quote his full entry which is considerably longer, and also notes that it can refer to the week, etc. But of course, you don't even need that. You looked at the usage yourself, and it goes beyond that of the weekly sabbath.

The majority of Adventist scholarship has not found either confusing, and doesn't see it as a weekly sabbath proof text for a reason.

Now either go through and explain the whole section, chapter 3 and 4, and how you get to your conclusion or do not. But if you won't do so, and won't engage with my post already doing so, then I guess you won't be making arguments from full context.

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Katapausis and Sabbatismos in Hebrews 4

Problem. Enthusiasm for the subject has not resulted in a general consensus regarding the meaning of “rest” in Heb 4. The dissertation studies the meaning of katapausis and sabbatismos in Heb 4 together with its relation to the neglected gatherings in Heb 10. Method. The study consists of an...

digitalcommons.andrews.edu

tall73 said:

And if you agree with Bob Ryan then you already have a less than literal interpretation of time in regards to one day. So again, looking at a lexicon isn't going to solve your issue.

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Capbook2 said:

You did not name of any Adventist scholars but this I find online a direct opposite to your conclusion.
This is from Andrews University a dissertation as both exegetical and theological in nature.
You may clink the link.

The formal parallelism between the katapausis of Heb 4:6 and the sabbatismos of 4:9 suggests that sabbatismos is meant to define more precisely the character of the rest. Etymologically sabbatismos derives from sabbatizein in much the same way that baptismos derives from baptizein. Sabbatismos in non-Christian as well as Christian literature is always used literally meaning Sabbath observance, although sometimes pejoratively, with the exception of Origen who uses the term twice figuratively. Hebrews 4:10 describes how the sabbatismos will become possible. The one entering it rested (aorist) from his works just as God rested from his on the first Sabbath in the primeval history of the world.

Katapausis and Sabbatismos in Hebrews 4

Problem. Enthusiasm for the subject has not resulted in a general consensus regarding the meaning of “rest” in Heb 4. The dissertation studies the meaning of katapausis and sabbatismos in Heb 4 together with its relation to the neglected gatherings in Heb 10. Method. The study consists of an...

digitalcommons.andrews.edu

You ask for a complete definition of "Sabbatismos," please find below, notice the 2 definition, EDNT clearly define it as - it designates more closely what the people of God should expect when they enter the of God (cf. 4:9 with v. 6 a). Just as God rested on the seventh day of creation from all his works.
And TDNT as "σαββατισμός sabbatismos" and on the other the Sabbath rest which is to be observed as a cessation from all work on the seventh day etc.

If you consider the number 1 definition the same with the number 2, the number 1 definition should not have been listed.

Heb 4:9 SoG686 there remainsG620 a SabbathG4520 restG4520 for the peopleG2992 of GodG2316.

G4520 (EDNT)
σαββατισμός sabbatismos
1. it designates more closely what the people of God should expect when they enter the
of God (cf. 4:9 with v. 6 a). Just as God rested on the seventh day of creation from all his works,
2. so also will believers find the eternal sabbath rest on the day of the completion of salvation in God's "place of rest"
(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament © 1990 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)

G4520 (Thayer Greek-English Lexicon)
σαββατισμός sabbatismos
1) a keeping sabbath
2) the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G4521

G4520 (TDNT)
σαββατισμός sabbatismos
1. The word κατάπαυσις katapausis denotes on the one side the gift of God which Israel would experience in the land as rest from all its enemies round about (Deut 12:9 f. cf. also Deut 25:19; Josh 21:44[42]; 3
2. σαββατισμός sabbatismos and on the other the Sabbath rest which is to be observed as a cessation from all work on the seventh day
(from Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Copyright © 1972-1989 By Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. All rights reserved.)

G4520 (Vine's Expository Dictionary)
1. Sabbath-keeping," is used in Heb 4:9, RV, "a sabbath rest," KJV marg., "a keeping of a sabbath" (akin to sabbatizo, "to keep the Sabbath," used, e. g., in Ex 16:30)
2. the perpetual sabbath "rest" to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this sabbath "rest" is the "rest" of God Himself, 4:10,
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

G4520 (Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon)
σαββατισμός sabbatismos
a special religiously significant period for rest and worship - 'a Sabbath rest, a period of rest.'
'there still remains for God's people a period of rest' Heb 4:9.
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)

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