Adventist view on the thousand years of the Millennium

Capbook2 said:

You did agree that "the first resurrection is plainly our baptism in Christ," by Liturgist, you can review your Post#41.
I just thought you did follow the flow of the discussion, I did not misrepresent your claim, you did agree what Liturgist claim.

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Our first resurrection is our being raised with Christ after our burial with Him in our baptism.
I'm stating that a wardrobe is furniture. You are claming that I am saying furniture is a wardrobe.

Capbook2 said:

You did agree that "the first resurrection is plainly our baptism in Christ," by Liturgist, you can review your Post#41.
I just thought you did follow the flow of the discussion, I did not misrepresent your claim, you did agree what Liturgist claim.

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prodromos said:

Our first resurrection is our being raised with Christ after our burial with Him in our baptism.
I'm stating that a wardrobe is furniture. You are claming that I am saying furniture is a wardrobe.

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Indeed, I have seen this strawman before and specifically the strawman is, attempting to say that those of us who hold to a sacramental, non-Zwinglian, non-memorialist interpretation of Baptism as the ordinary means of reception into the Church are denying Christ the ability to exercise His saving grace in other circumstances, which we do not claim - that would be unscriptural. In the case of St. Lazarus furthermore, his resurrection was before the institution of the New Covenant, like the others seen in the New Testament before that of Christ; additionally the Holy Apostles and indeed later saints of the early church and the Orthodox Church have on occasion been blessed by God to revive someone who had perished, or heal those who were in extremis, and in so doing cause entire households to be converted.

Baptism with water is the ordinary menas of reception, but those who are martyred for confessing Christ before being baptized are baptized in blood, and those who die as catechumens before receiving baptism, the baptism of desire, for which reason they get a full Orthodox funeral. And furthermore the ability of Christ to save individuals outside this pattern such as St. Dismas (the Good Thief) and others, on the basis of “I will have mercy on who I will have mercy” (a statement which seems tautological until we consider that Christ our God is the First Principle, compare the name of God “I AM who I AM”), which obviously we are not going to do.

And we have made this point clear repeatedly, so the fact that Orthodox Christians and other traditional Christians are still being accused of holding to this error after all this years is frustrating, just reading a thread on Baptism would dispel this error.

tall73 said:

@prodromos @The Liturgist do EO take this to be about Nero? Or some other fulfillment?

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I personally regard it as pertaining initially to Nero but this point is not dogmatically defined. Did you see the private message i sent you on this point?

prodromos said:

Our first resurrection is our being raised with Christ after our burial with Him in our baptism.
I'm stating that a wardrobe is furniture. You are claming that I am saying furniture is a wardrobe.

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May we know what Bible text specifically state that, "the first resurrection is plainly our baptism in Christ," as I specifically disagree to that statement where you agree.

As to your Post#56, I presume you did follow my point, as your replied "Lazarus is an exception to the rule" as an answer to my question below.

"May we know when Lazarus was brought to life again in John 11:38-44, was it his first resurrection or his first baptism?"

But when presented with the lists of those being first resurrected unbelievers, as a follow up question, now you claim strawman?
Why? as they were of the same first resurrection with Lazarus.
1. The widow's son, (1Kings 17:17-22)
2. The Shunammite's son, 2Kings 4:18-37)
3. The man in Elisha's tomb, (2Kings 13:20,21)
4. Jairus' daughter, (Mark 5:41)
5. The widow's son at Nain, (Luke 7:11-17)
6. The resurrected Saints, (Mat 27:50-53)
7. Tabitha (Dorcas), Acts 9:36-42)
8. Eutychus. Acts 20:7-12)

The Liturgist said:

Indeed, I have seen this strawman before and specifically the strawman is, attempting to say that those of us who hold to a sacramental, non-Zwinglian, non-memorialist interpretation of Baptism as the ordinary means of reception into the Church are denying Christ the ability to exercise His saving grace in other circumstances, which we do not claim - that would be unscriptural. In the case of St. Lazarus furthermore, his resurrection was before the institution of the New Covenant, like the others seen in the New Testament before that of Christ; additionally the Holy Apostles and indeed later saints of the early church and the Orthodox Church have on occasion been blessed by God to revive someone who had perished, or heal those who were in extremis, and in so doing cause entire households to be converted.

Baptism with water is the ordinary menas of reception, but those who are martyred for confessing Christ before being baptized are baptized in blood, and those who die as catechumens before receiving baptism, the baptism of desire, for which reason they get a full Orthodox funeral. And furthermore the ability of Christ to save individuals outside this pattern such as St. Dismas (the Good Thief) and others, on the basis of “I will have mercy on who I will have mercy” (a statement which seems tautological until we consider that Christ our God is the First Principle, compare the name of God “I AM who I AM”), which obviously we are not going to do.

And we have made this point clear repeatedly, so the fact that Orthodox Christians and other traditional Christians are still being accused of holding to this error after all this years is frustrating, just reading a thread on Baptism would dispel this error.

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As I prefer to quote literal word for word Bible translations as termed formal equivalence than to thought for thought translation termed dynamic equivalence as for me is the product of the translators thoughts and not from the original Bible words, the same question I would like to raise, may we know what Bible text that specifically state, "the first resurrection is plainly our baptism in Christ?"

The Liturgist said:

I personally regard it as pertaining initially to Nero but this point is not dogmatically defined. Did you see the private message i sent you on this point?

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Yes thank you!

Capbook2 said:

The first resurrection recorded in Thessalonians 4:16, those who are dead in Christ made alive as stated, "the dead in Christ will rise first," do you interpret it as "baptism?"

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

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You are associating this with Revelation 20, but can you explain how these are the same?


Revelation 20:4-6 (NKJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Are all believers martyred for Christ? Have all believers stood the test by refusing the mark? How do you explain this criteria?

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Capbook2 said:

As I prefer to quote literal word for word Bible translations as termed formal equivalence than to thought for thought translation termed dynamic equivalence as for me is the product of the translators thoughts and not from the original Bible words, the same question I would like to raise, may we know what Bible text that specifically state, "the first resurrection is plainly our baptism in Christ?"

Click to expand...

Colossians 2:12-13 (NKJV) 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

I am not necessarily putting forward the view of baptism as a solution to Rev 20, still looking at the details. But being raised from the dead with, and made alive with Christ does come before the later bodily
resurrection.

Capbook2 said:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

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In context the use of first here is explaining how we who are alive will note precede those who fell asleep. They rise, then we also are caught up.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (NKJV) 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

tall73 said:

You are associating this with Revelation 20, but can you explain how these are the same?


Revelation 20:4-6 (NKJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Are all believers martyred for Christ? Have all believers stood the test by refusing the mark? How do you explain this criteria?

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

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I would interpret the "souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus" as the dead in Christ in 1Thessalonians 4, and "who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands," may include the dead and alive when Jesus comes.

tall73 said:

In context the use of first here is explaining how we who are alive will note precede those who fell asleep. They rise, then we also are caught up.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (NKJV) 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

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Yes, the passage relate about the dead in Christ will first be resurrected and the alive with the newly resurrected will be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and shall always be with the Lord.

tall73 said:

Colossians 2:12-13 (NKJV) 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

I am not necessarily putting forward the view of baptism as a solution to Rev 20, still looking at the details. But being raised from the dead with, and made alive with Christ does come before the later bodily
resurrection.

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Yes, baptism comes first than bodily resurrection.
Would you commend that those baptized in Jesus would only be with Him for a thousand years in the context of Revelation 20:6?

Capbook2 said:

I would interpret the "souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus" as the dead in Christ in 1Thessalonians 4

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So not all believers will be raised in 1 Thessalonians, just those who were martyrs? Or do you mean something else?

Those who were beheaded for their witness is not just those who were Christians, or even OT saints, and then eventually died. It is more specific.

And most believers will not be presented the mark to reject it. So combining those two, martyrs who did not receive the mark, is a very limited group. How can it be parallel to the dead in Christ in 1 Thess. 4?

Capbook2 said:

, and "who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands," may include the dead and alive when Jesus comes.

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The two criteria go together, those who are beheaded and did not receive the mark. That would leave a lot of believers out of the 1 Thess. passage.

Capbook2 said:

Yes, baptism comes first than bodily resurrection.
Would you commend that those baptized in Jesus would only be with Him for a thousand years in the context of Revelation 20:6?

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I would contend that whoever the people in 20:6 are they have a 1k reign but then also the second death has no power over them.

Since the second death comes in after the 1k years, this indicates more than just the 1k year reign.