The First Resurrection

WilliamLhk said:

So Christ is the first to be raised. Then the Rev. 20 saints are in the first resurrection!?

These two statements are completely contradictory, and yet you try to pass them off as being truth.
Incomprehensible!

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I don't think these statements are contradictory at all.
Paul says that Christ is the firstfruits (1 Cor. 15:20, 23). In other words, Christ is the first to rise in a glorified, immortal body.
Revelation 20, however, is written after Jesus was raised and so it is speaking about the future. John isn't saying that no one had been raised before then, he obviously knew that Christ had already risen. Rather, he is describing the first resurrection in the sequence of end-time resurrections that he is discussing. So, you have the first resurrection and the last resurrection at the end, the last day.

So, my understanding is:
-Christ is raised first as the firstfruits (1 Cor. 15:20–23).
-Then, at His coming, those who participate in the first resurrection are raised (Rev. 20:4–6).
-After the thousand years, "the rest of the dead" are raised (Rev. 20:5) for the final judgment.

The question we're debating isn't whether Christ rose first, we both agree that He did. The question is: Who are "those who are Christ's at His coming"? My understanding is that Revelation 20 answers that question by identifying those who participate in the first resurrection.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see why these passages should be considered contradictory.

1Tonne said:

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see why these passages should be considered contradictory.

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You are missing a lot, but I've explained this all to you earlier this year.

Anytime someone has to string together a bunch of rationalizations in order to prove/disprove a simple doctrine, rarely are they not deceiving themselves. But this happens often on Christian forums.

1Tonne said:

John isn't saying that no one had been raised before then, he obviously knew that Christ had already risen. Rather, he is describing the first resurrection in the sequence of end-time resurrections that he is discussing.

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You are accrediting this passage as being John's doctrine. Nothing could be further from the truth. What he is doing is reporting the doctrine of Christ.

Once more, here is an article that dissects this passage in detail. For any observers here who might be interested:
78. The "First" Resurrection of Revelation 20:5-6 https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2840-the-“first”-resurrection-of-revelation-205-6/

WilliamLhk said:

Anytime someone has to string together a bunch of rationalizations in order to prove/disprove a simple doctrine, rarely are they not deceiving themselves. But this happens often on Christian forums.

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I think you are stringing things together and that string is about as thin as a hair. You are even using books outside of the cannon to make your doctrine. That I would say is using a very thin, thin string.

WilliamLhk said:

You are accrediting this passage as being John's doctrine. Nothing could be further from the truth. What he is doing is reporting the doctrine of Christ.

Once more, here is an article that dissects this passage in detail. For any observers here who might be interested:
78. The "First" Resurrection of Revelation 20:5-6 https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2840-the-“first”-resurrection-of-revelation-205-6/

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I have read the article. I have a few questions about its interpretation.

It seems to me that several conclusions are assumed rather than drawn from the text.
For example, where does Revelation 20 ever say that unbelievers are raised before the Millennium? Verse 5 appears to say exactly the opposite: "The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." The article cites John 5 and Daniel 12, but neither passage places the resurrection of unbelievers before the Millennium.

Also, the article argues that "first resurrection" means "preeminent" rather than referring to its place in the sequence. But Revelation 20 itself immediately contrasts verse 4 with verse 5 with "the rest of the dead", who are not raised until after the thousand years. That appears to be a chronological sequence, not merely a difference in rank. To argue otherwise seems to overlook the plain wording of the text.

Finally, I'm concerned that the article builds part of its argument from the Book of Enoch. Whatever historical value Enoch may have, it is not part of the biblical canon, so I don't think it should be be used to establish doctrine about the resurrection.
My preference is to let Scripture interpret Scripture and to let Revelation 20 speak for itself, rather than importing additional resurrection groups that John never mentions.

You suggested that my view is simply stringing together passages that aren't there. Yet the article seems to do exactly that. It combines Revelation 20 with assumptions from other passages, introduces resurrection groups that Revelation never identifies, and even appeals to the Book of Enoch to support its conclusions.

If we're going to build doctrine, I think we should build it from the biblical text itself and not import other books that are not in the cannon. If a resurrection group isn't explicitly identified in Revelation 20, then I don't think we should add it to the passage. That's not me trying to keep theology simple, it's me trying to keep theology within the canon of Scripture.

1Tonne said:

But that is exactly what Revelation 20 says. John specifically identifies those who take part in the first resurrection:

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We're going to have to disagree on that. If Rev 20 was going to limit the 1st Resurrection only to the martyrs under Antichrist the words could read more like: "These are the *only* people who will be raised up in the 1st Resurrection." But nothing like that appears here.

Instead, we just have a particular group being emphasized here because the endtime scenario under Antichrist and the martyrdom he causes is what is immediately being discussed here. It resolves the problem of the fate of these saints who lose their lives giving testimony to Christ.

It doesn't in the least reduce the 1st Resurrection only to these whose fate is underscored. Otherwise, those who are given to "judge" would be defined as *only these,* instead of remaining a much broader concept than just involving those who died under Antichrist. Clearly, those given judgment are much broader than the number who are martyred under Antichrsit!

Even moreso, we know that the Resurrection, broadly, takes place at the 2nd Coming, involving all who have died in Christ. Limiting the 1st Resurrection only to the martyrs of Antichrist flies in the face of this, and the logic behind it.

1Tonne said:

"I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his mark..."
He then says, "They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
Immediately after that, John adds:
"The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished."
The text never says, "and all other believers were raised also." If that were John's intention, it would have been very easy for him to say so. Instead, he carefully describes a specific group and then contrasts them with "the rest of the dead."

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The text need not say what is already common sense and naturally assumed to be the case. The 1st Resurrection is the general resurrection of all Christians who have died in Christ. That is many times stated in the Scriptures.

The reason for calling it the "First" Resurrection seems designed, therefore, to show that the general resurrection of all departed saints does not take place prior to the 2nd Coming, but only takes place for the first time at Christ's 2nd Coming. Our hope, therefore is to be directed to that event, and not to anything happening previously in history prior to that event.

In no way is the "First Resurrection" intended to stand apart and separate from the General Resurrection of the departed Church, in my opinion. To argue this, on strictly the basis of this one passage, seems highly suspicious, as I see it. It tends to exalt this one group of people as an "elite," when in fact there have been many martyrs from various historical antichrists throughout history. They are *all* special!

RandyPNW said:

We're going to have to disagree on that. If Rev 20 was going to limit the 1st Resurrection only to the martyrs under Antichrist the words could read more like: "These are the *only* people who will be raised up in the 1st Resurrection." But nothing like that appears here.

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The wording does limit those who are raised as it describes them as those who were beheaded for their faith, and then it then says those who are beheaded reigned with Christ. Lastly it goes onto say no one else was raise. They all stayed in the grave.

Make sure you are seeing verse 5. Everyone else apart from those who were beheaded for their faith, remain in the grave. They are not raised.
That is pretty simple.

RandyPNW said:

It doesn't in the least reduce the 1st Resurrection only to these whose fate is underscored. Otherwise, those who are given to "judge" would be defined as *only these,* instead of remaining a much broader concept than just involving those who died under Antichrist. Clearly, those given judgment are much broader than the number who are martyred under Antichrsit!

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Rev 20:4-6 "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Those who are given to judge are not the people who are raised in the first resurrection. They are different people. See how in the wording John says that he saw those who were given authority to judge. "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them." Following that, he uses the word "Then". So, he sees the judges and "then", or next.
The word "Then" separates these people into 2 groups. Judges and then those who are raised.

So, the judges are not the saints. They are entirely different people. John sees the judges are they are given authority and then he sees the saints.

RandyPNW said:

Even moreso, we know that the Resurrection, broadly, takes place at the 2nd Coming, involving all who have died in Christ.

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It is a presumption to say that all those who have died who believe in Jesus will be raised at the second coming. And I can understand why you think this. In 1 Thes 4 it says that the "dead in Christ" will rise first. The question should be when reading 1 Thes 4 is, "who are these dead people in Christ that return with Him at His second coming? Is there any other scripture that shows who these dead people are who are raised at the 1st resurrection." This is where Revelation 20:4-6 come in. Revelation 20 shows us who the "dead in Christ" are. They are specifically those who were martyred and not every dead believer.

RandyPNW said:

The text need not say what is already common sense and naturally assumed to be the case.

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To do otherwise is to read your own understanding into the text. That is called eisegesis. That is not what scholars should do.

1Tonne said:

The wording does limit those who are raised as it describes them as those who were beheaded for their faith, and then it then says those who are beheaded reigned with Christ. Lastly it goes onto say no one else was raise. They all stayed in the grave.

Make sure you are seeing verse 5. Everyone else apart from those who were beheaded for their faith, remain in the grave. They are not raised.
That is pretty simple.

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I've said pretty much my view on it. We'll have to disagree. And it's not just me--lots of people see things the way I do. So for many, it is not that "clear."

1Tonne said:

Rev 20:4-6 "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Those who are given to judge are not the people who are raised in the first resurrection. They are different people. See how in the wording John says that he saw those who were given authority to judge. "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them." Following that, he uses the word "Then". So, he sees the judges and "then", or next.
The word "Then" separates these people into 2 groups. Judges and then those who are raised.

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The word "then" does not necessarily operate the way you would wish it to operate, designating a group outside of the 1st Resurrection. In my judgment the entire thing is about the 1st Resurrection, the martyrs under Antichrist and all who have been given judgment. I feel confident that those killed by Antichrist are included in those who are given judgment.

1Tonne said:

So, the judges are not the saints.

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Really? I can't agree at all!

1Tonne said:

They are entirely different people. John sees the judges are they are given authority and then he sees the saints.

It is a presumption to say that all those who have died who believe in Jesus will be raised at the second coming.

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Really? I can't agree at all!

1Tonne said:

And I can understand why you think this. In 1 Thes 4 it says that the "dead in Christ" will rise first. The question should be when reading 1 Thes 4 is, "who are these dead people in Christ that return with Him at His second coming? Is there any other scripture that shows who these dead people are who are raised at the 1st resurrection."

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There are a number of Scriptures indicating that the resurrection of the saints takes place at the 2nd Coming, which logically is the 1st resurrection of the saints. That is, there is no resurrection of the saints prior to this event.

1Tonne said:

This is where Revelation 20:4-6 come in. Revelation 20 shows us who the "dead in Christ" are. They are specifically those who were martyred and not every dead believer.

To do otherwise is to read your own understanding into the text. That is called eisegesis. That is not what scholars should do.

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A lot of scholars who do not practice eisegesis agree with me, and would see your view as an example of eisegesis. Sorry, I don't seee any basis for seeing things your way apart from seeing the passage in a very narrow way.

RandyPNW said:

I've said pretty much my view on it. We'll have to disagree. And it's not just me--lots of people see things the way I do. So for many, it is not that "clear."

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I can't see how it is not that clear. It is simple and we should take it exactly for what it says and not add our view to it.
But I do understand where you are coming from. When, taught something, it can be hard to see otherwise.

RandyPNW said:

There are a number of Scriptures indicating that the resurrection of the saints takes place at the 2nd Coming, which logically is the 1st resurrection of the saints. That is, there is no resurrection of the saints prior to this event.

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Just like 1 Thes 4 says that the dead in Christ rise first, many people will take this as meaning all dead believers when it means the martyrs.
Even Jesus did not believe that all the believers were raise early. Jesus believed that they were raised on the last day. He stresses this 6 times in the Gospels and even the disciples also believed that we are raised on the last day. Not before. The only place in the New Testament that has some coming to life early is in Rev 20 but this is limited to those who were killed for their faith.

I think we should believe what Jesus said instead of overriding what He taught.

1Tonne said:

Just like 1 Thes 4 says that the dead in Christ rise first, many people will take this as meaning all dead believers when it means the martyrs.

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1Thessalonians4:14-18 is referring to the resurrection/rapture event.

Those who sleep in Christ in verse 14 is referring to all that have died in Christ up to the second when the resurrection/rapture event takes place. It includes Christians who died as martyrs and Christians who did not die as martyrs.

In Revelation 20:4-6, that is a resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints. But what is not that passage is the rapture of the living in Christ. So the Revelation 20:4-6 action is not the resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonans4:14-18.

1Tonne said:

I can't see how it is not that clear. It is simple and we should take it exactly for what it says and not add our view to it.
But I do understand where you are coming from. When, taught something, it can be hard to see otherwise.

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That's where you're wrong. Nobody told me how to interpret it. This is just the way I see it for the very reasons I gave you. I've *always* assumed this is the 1st general resurrection of the entire Church, as it was promised by Jesus it would happen at his 2nd Coming.

1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

The dead in Christ rise first in the sense that they are not being neglected as the living saints become immortalized. That is, the dead saints rise at roughly the same moment that the living saints are glorified in immortal bodies. It is taking place on the "last day."

1 Cor 15.22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him... 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Again, the saints are raised "imperishable" at Christ's Coming, at the "last trumpet," on the "last day." There is no resurrection prior to this "day."

1Tonne said:

Just like 1 Thes 4 says that the dead in Christ rise first, many people will take this as meaning all dead believers when it means the martyrs.
Even Jesus did not believe that all the believers were raise early. Jesus believed that they were raised on the last day. He stresses this 6 times in the Gospels and even the disciples also believed that we are raised on the last day. Not before. The only place in the New Testament that has some coming to life early is in Rev 20 but this is limited to those who were killed for their faith.

I think we should believe what Jesus said instead of overriding what He taught.

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I can't even make out what you're saying, it sounds so abstract. How can you think this is obvious teaching? Yes, the dead in Christ rise first, and that obviously includes martyrs.

And nobody is saying that Jesus believed all believers are raised early. As you just said, the "dead in Christ rise first," and that is on the "last day." As you said, Jesus repeatedly said the resurrection of all believers would be on the "last day"--not earlier than that.

Rev 20 does *not* have the 1st Resurrection, which includes the martyrs under Antichrist, rising "early!" The 1st Resurrection in Rev 20 is, in fact, the "last day!"

Douggg said:

1Thessalonians4:14-18 is referring to the resurrection/rapture event.

Those who sleep in Christ in verse 14 is referring to all that have died in Christ up to the second when the resurrection/rapture event takes place. It includes Christians who died as martyrs and Christians who did not die as martyrs.

In Revelation 20:4-6, that is a resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints. But what is not that passage is the rapture of the living in Christ. So the Revelation 20:4-6 action is not the resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonans4:14-18.

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John 6:39 – And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 – For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44 – No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54 – The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 11:24 – Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”
John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him, the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”

Can you tell me why Jesus said that all believers and unbelievers would be raised on the last day and not before?

Jesus also describes a single event where all the dead, both believers and unbeliever are raised in John 5:28–29. He says, “the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”
Likewise, Acts 24:15 speaks of “a" resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. "A' being one event.

And then we also have Daniel 12:1-2.
"1 At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt."
I think we can all agree that unbelievers are raised and judged at the GWT on the last day. Dan 12 speaks of people who go to everlasting contempt. This would be the unbelievers. Therefore, Dan 12:1-2 is speaking about the last day and on this day, believers are also raised. Dan 12:1-2 also links to 1 Cor 15:23-24 where it speaks about the Kingdom (God's people) being delivered to God at the end of time (not before).
"23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power." 1 Cor 15:23-24

Matthew 13:39–43, describes the same pattern where the harvest is at “the end of the age” and both the wicked and the righteous are dealt with at that time. Likewise in Matthew 25:31–46, when the Son of Man comes in glory all nations are gathered and then separated into the righteous and the wicked. These passages also place resurrection/judgment together at the end rather than separating them into different events.

When we place all these passages together, the picture Jesus and the apostles give is that both believers and unbelievers are raised and judged in the same general event on the last day. That aligns naturally with Jesus’ repeated statement that believers are raised “on the last day.”

So, my question is, can you tell me why Jesus said that all believers and unbelievers would be raised on the last day and not before?

RandyPNW said:

That's where you're wrong. Nobody told me how to interpret it.

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Maybe they should have told you as it is not a natural reading. It is adding your understanding of end times upon the text.

RandyPNW said:

Yes, the dead in Christ rise first, and that obviously includes martyrs.

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The question is, does it include everyone else when Christ returns?

RandyPNW said:

And nobody is saying that Jesus believed all believers are raised early.

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The mainstream view of the rapture seems to be that before the tribulation, or during the tribulation, the believers who are in the grave are raised and then straight away after this, the believers who are left alive will also be raptured. They all then return with Christ and reign.
This seems to be the mainstream understanding of the rapture. (You may have a different view of the rapture)

That view of the rapture is not what I read in the bible. I see that the dead in Christ, the martyrs rise first and return with Him and reign with Him for 1000 years. This is before the last day. In fact, at least 1000 years before the last day. Then, on the very last day of time, those who are alive and remain, until the very end, both believer and unbeliever as well as all who are dead and alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and are judged at the GWT.
See my previous post.

So, the order is:
-Resurrection of the Martyrs (1st resurrection),
-1000-year reign,
-Satan free for a short time,
-The last day, all those in the grave, believer and non-believer will rise to judgement (2nd resurrection) (Dan 12:1-2), as well as all those who are left alive on the last day will be raptured up to judgement. So, the very last day includes both believers and non-believers, all those who are in the grave and all who are alive at that particular time going to judgement.

rockytopva said:

I was brought up Charles Stanley type Baptist and Pentecostal Holiness. They both believed in a rapture. Whatever you may call it... I will take the first resurrection thank you!

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 2:6

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How are you defining the first resurrection; it sounds like you are equating it with the rapture. ?
The first resurrection is being born again.

Wake up o sleeper, rise from the dead. (Ephesians)
While you were dead in your transgression, Christ made you alive. (Ephesians)

Such language is what Revelation refers to as the first resurrection. We read in
I Corinthians 15 the chronology of events for Christians upon death and resurrection. There are no 2 resurrections. Only one resurrection.
The second resurrection is on Judgement Day.

throughfierytrial said:

How are you defining the first resurrection; it sounds like you are equating it with the rapture. ?
The first resurrection is being born again.

Wake up o sleeper, rise from the dead. (Ephesians)
While you were dead in your transgression, Christ made you alive. (Ephesians)

Such language is what Revelation refers to as the first resurrection. We read in
I Corinthians 15 the chronology of events for Christians upon death and resurrection. There are no 2 resurrections. Only one resurrection.
The second resurrection is on Judgement Day.

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I don't think Revelation 20 allows the "first resurrection" to mean being born again.
The reason is that John identifies who participates in it:
"I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image... And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:4-5)

Notice the flow of the passage:
-John sees the souls of martyrs.
-They had been beheaded for their testimony.
-They lived and reigned with Christ.
-John then says, "This is the first resurrection."

If the first resurrection simply means being born again, several questions arise:

1. Why does John limit his description to those who were martyred for Christ and refused the Beast? Every Christian is born again, but not every Christian is beheaded.
2. Revelation has already introduced these same martyrs in Revelation 6:9-11, where they are told to wait until the full number of martyrs is complete. Revelation 20 naturally returns to that same group and shows their vindication.
3. Rev 20:5 contrasts this resurrection with "the rest of the dead" who do not live again until the thousand years are finished. That is a contrast between two groups of the dead, not between spiritually dead and spiritually alive people.
4. If "lived" in verse 4 means spiritual regeneration, then consistency would require "the rest of the dead did not live again" in verse 5 to mean they were not spiritually regenerated until after the thousand years, which would imply people are born again after the Millennium. That doesn't fit the rest of Scripture.

I agree that Ephesians 2 speaks of a spiritual resurrection in regeneration. But Revelation 20 is using different language in a different context. John is speaking about those who had died for Christ, and he says they lived again and reigned with Him. The passage itself identifies this event as "the first resurrection."

1Tonne said:

I don't think Revelation 20 allows the "first resurrection" to mean being born again.
The reason is that John identifies who participates in it:
"I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image... And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:4-5)

Notice the flow of the passage:
-John sees the souls of martyrs.
-They had been beheaded for their testimony.
-They lived and reigned with Christ.
-John then says, "This is the first resurrection."

If the first resurrection simply means being born again, several questions arise:

1. Why does John limit his description to those who were martyred for Christ and refused the Beast? Every Christian is born again, but not every Christian is beheaded.
2. Revelation has already introduced these same martyrs in Revelation 6:9-11, where they are told to wait until the full number of martyrs is complete. Revelation 20 naturally returns to that same group and shows their vindication.
3. Rev 20:5 contrasts this resurrection with "the rest of the dead" who do not live again until the thousand years are finished. That is a contrast between two groups of the dead, not between spiritually dead and spiritually alive people.
4. If "lived" in verse 4 means spiritual regeneration, then consistency would require "the rest of the dead did not live again" in verse 5 to mean they were not spiritually regenerated until after the thousand years, which would imply people are born again after the Millennium. That doesn't fit the rest of Scripture.

I agree that Ephesians 2 speaks of a spiritual resurrection in regeneration. But Revelation 20 is using different language in a different context. John is speaking about those who had died for Christ, and he says they lived again and reigned with Him. The passage itself identifies this event as "the first resurrection."

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I believe you have a preconceived idea of the last day which is in my view, as well as many others, unfounded by Scripture. O.T. and NT speak only of one resurrection. Look carefully at I Corinthians 15 and
I Thessalonians 4 for instance and examine the sequence of events… the “rapture”, as some term it, is only a very short time.

Revelation is just that, a revelation and must be interpreted, much as is the case in the book of Daniel. Revelation is understood by using a thorough knowledge of Scripture. Remember Proverbs 1 states… get wisdom … for understanding parables, proverbs and sayings of the wise, etc. I refer to this passage only to defend the nature of the interpretation I and many find… mine is a widely held view and you may not have read of it???

In my/our interpretation we allow only the Scriptures to speak for us. Much of Revelation is riddle-like in nature and when reading its pages passages should/ may come to mind…passages which can be applied. This is of course not of our own minds, but the Spirit within us. You must safe guard what you know and discard anything which conflicts with the rest of Scripture.

Here is the interpretation of martyrs and first resurrection. …

All true believers are beheaded martyrs. True believers “deny themselves and take up their cross”… martyrs.
All true believers are beheaded. The body of Christ is made up of all true believers and only Christ is thir head. There is only one head which is Christ. In this sense Christians are “beheaded” martyrs. Christians deny or drown out… as much as possible… that which stems from the sinful flesh. A fact of Scripture.

This is my belief and my sincere hope is that you think through it before rejecting. I know it is much as putting new wine into old wine skins.

1Tonne said:

Can you tell me why Jesus said that all believers and unbelievers would be raised on the last day and not before?

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Which of those verses you quoted say anything about the changing of the living in Christ ? None of them.

The living in Christ are told to watch.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Are you watching ? To be taken to heaven in the resurrection/rapture event, so that that you will not have to go through the hour of temptation (the great tribulation) which shall come upon the world.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1Tonne said:

Maybe they should have told you as it is not a natural reading. It is adding your understanding of end times upon the text.

The question is, does it include everyone else when Christ returns?

The mainstream view of the rapture seems to be that before the tribulation, or during the tribulation, the believers who are in the grave are raised and then straight away after this, the believers who are left alive will also be raptured. They all then return with Christ and reign.
This seems to be the mainstream understanding of the rapture. (You may have a different view of the rapture)

That view of the rapture is not what I read in the bible. I see that the dead in Christ, the martyrs rise first and return with Him and reign with Him for 1000 years. This is before the last day. In fact, at least 1000 years before the last day. Then, on the very last day of time, those who are alive and remain, until the very end, both believer and unbeliever as well as all who are dead and alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and are judged at the GWT.
See my previous post.

So, the order is:
-Resurrection of the Martyrs (1st resurrection),
-1000-year reign,
-Satan free for a short time,
-The last day, all those in the grave, believer and non-believer will rise to judgement (2nd resurrection) (Dan 12:1-2), as well as all those who are left alive on the last day will be raptured up to judgement. So, the very last day includes both believers and non-believers, all those who are in the grave and all who are alive at that particular time going to judgement.

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Thank you for explaining that to me--I really didn't know where you were coming from. You seem to present a different set of views than I normally hear.

Your view of the "mainstream view of the Rapture" is not how I see the mainstream Dispensational view at all, which is what you seem to be trying to represent. The Dispensationalist view of the Rapture has the Resurrection of the dead saints and the Rapture of the living saints as a simultaneous event, even though the text indicates one "first" and then the other.

Most people understand that the dead are raised "first" not because there is a separation in time between them and the Rapture of the living saints, but only as a convenient way of separating the groups to indicate that the one group would not be left behind. Paul is saying that the dead are not going to be neglected, as the Thessalonians feared, such that the dead saints will be "first" in this event with both the Resurrection and the Rapture taking place essentially at the same time--that is, no separation in time between the two distinct events.

So, this idea you have that the "Mainstream View" involves a separation in time between the Resurrection of the dead saints and the Rapture of the living saints is not the "Mainstream View" at all! And that was what caused some of my confusion with your statements.

The other thing that I did not expect to hear, which is heard at times but less often so, is that the "Last Day" takes place at the end of the Millennium and not at Christ's 2nd Coming. Most people I know, who are Premillennialists, find the "Last Day" is associated with the last day of the present age and the day in which Christ Returns. That is the day when the saints are raised and the living saints are immortalized.

What you think is a "common sense" view of the text and natural to the reading of the text is obviously not so, since most Christians do not read it this way. The schools of interpretation that have emerged did not find your reading natural to how they saw the flow of thought at all, though you and others have adopted this as being natural to your reading. But thanks for the explanation.

1Tonne said:

The article cites John 5 and Daniel 12, but neither passage places the resurrection of unbelievers before the Millennium.

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John 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
This is the time of Christ's Parousia = 1 Thes. 4:14-17. This description differs substantially from the description of what happens at the end of the Millennium.
Likewise , Daniel 12:1-3 are clearly right after "there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation," 12:1, which is the GT, not the end of the Millennium. Only way you can miss this is by having filtered your understanding to miss it. Which is what most people do.

1Tonne said:

If we're going to build doctrine, I think we should build it from the biblical text itself and not import other books that are not in the cannon. If a resurrection group isn't explicitly identified in Revelation 20, then I don't think we should add it to the passage.

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Good thing the NT writers did not agree with you! And of course, EVERY Bible commentator quotes or cites evidence from all manner of secular sources. So you objection rings hollow.

1Tonne said:

The only place in the New Testament that has some coming to life early is in Rev 20

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That will certainly be news to the Two Witnesses.

Can just them now: "But 1Tonne said we weren't supposed to rise so soon!"

throughfierytrial said:

I believe you have a preconceived idea of the last day which is in my view, as well as many others, unfounded by Scripture. O.T. and NT speak only of one resurrection.

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I believe in what Jesus said. The last day is the last day. So, the last day of time. And if He said that He will raise all believers on the last day, then I believe that over people who say that he did not actually mean the last day.
Also, Rev 20 speaks of the first resurrection. If it was the only, then why would it say the first.

Douggg said:

Are you watching ? To be taken to heaven in the resurrection/rapture event, so that that you will not have to go through the hour of temptation (the great tribulation) which shall come upon the world.

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I am waiting for Christs return with the martyrs. Not some special rapture.

RandyPNW said:

Thank you for explaining that to me--I really didn't know where you were coming from. You seem to present a different set of views than I normally hear.

Your view of the "mainstream view of the Rapture" is not how I see the mainstream Dispensational view at all, which is what you seem to be trying to represent. The Dispensationalist view of the Rapture has the Resurrection of the dead saints and the Rapture of the living saints as a simultaneous event, even though the text indicates one "first" and then the other.

Most people understand that the dead are raised "first" not because there is a separation in time between them and the Rapture of the living saints, but only as a convenient way of separating the groups to indicate that the one group would not be left behind. Paul is saying that the dead are not going to be neglected, as the Thessalonians feared, such that the dead saints will be "first" in this event with both the Resurrection and the Rapture taking place essentially at the same time--that is, no separation in time between the two distinct events.

So, this idea you have that the "Mainstream View" involves a separation in time between the Resurrection of the dead saints and the Rapture of the living saints is not the "Mainstream View" at all! And that was what caused some of my confusion with your statements.

The other thing that I did not expect to hear, which is heard at times but less often so, is that the "Last Day" takes place at the end of the Millennium and not at Christ's 2nd Coming. Most people I know, who are Premillennialists, find the "Last Day" is associated with the last day of the present age and the day in which Christ Returns. That is the day when the saints are raised and the living saints are immortalized.

What you think is a "common sense" view of the text and natural to the reading of the text is obviously not so, since most Christians do not read it this way. The schools of interpretation that have emerged did not find your reading natural to how they saw the flow of thought at all, though you and others have adopted this as being natural to your reading. But thanks for the explanation.

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Thanks for understanding. I see those verses as a natural reading without adding my view upon them and to me they seem very simple. I think that because many schools of thought have had preconceived ideas taught to them about an early rapture that many people now cannot see the plain reading of the text. It is a little bit like the verse in Isaiah that says, "Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And, seeing you will see and not perceive" (I am not saying that people who do not understand have grown dull as that is the following verse.)
In the end, I don't think it really bothers me if they do not understand. My passion is more about sharing the Gospel to those whom are outside of my circle of friends as well as my friends.
I do post on here every now and then about end times stuff and if someone understands then, great. If they don't then so be it. (As I said, my passion is sharing the Gospel to the lost and so I feel this is way more important than a rapture topic)

WilliamLhk said:

John 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
This is the time of Christ's Parousia = 1 Thes. 4:14-17. This description differs substantially from the description of what happens at the end of the Millennium.

Click to expand...

If, as you argue, 1 Thessalonians 4 is describing Christ's return to establish His Millennial reign, then we need to ask another question:
Who are "the dead in Christ" that rise at that point?
Revelation 20 answers that question. John writes: "I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God... and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years... This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:4-6)
John doesn't simply say, "all believers were raised." Instead, he specifically identifies those who participate in the resurrection that begins the thousand-year reign, those who were martyred for Christ and refused the Beast.
He then adds: "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished."
That creates a clear distinction between those raised before the Millennium and those who are not.
So, if 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is indeed describing Christ's return immediately before the Millennium, then Revelation 20 provides the inspired explanation of who is raised at that time. 1Thes 4:17 then describes what happens to the people who are then left alive at the end of time. So, the last day.
This is why I struggle with the view that every believer is raised at Christ's return. Revelation 20 appears to identify a specific group who participate in the first resurrection and then explicitly distinguishes them from "the rest of the dead." These martyrs are also signalled out as speacial people in other places in Revelation too.

So my question would be: if all believers are raised at Christ's return, why does John identify only the martyrs as participating in the resurrection that inaugurates the thousand-year reign?

WilliamLhk said:

Likewise , Daniel 12:1-3 are clearly right after "there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation," 12:1, which is the GT, not the end of the Millennium. Only way you can miss this is by having filtered your understanding to miss it. Which is what most people do.

Click to expand...

In Daniel 12:1-2 the time of trouble is the short period where Satan is set free to make war. This is after the 1000 year reign.

From what I understand your sequence is this:
-Great Tribulation.
-All believers are raised and Christ returns
-Christ reigns for 1,000 years.
-The wicked are raised after the Millennium. ?

My difficulty is that this doesn't seem to be what Revelation 20 actually says.
John doesn't write: "I saw all believers raised." Instead, he writes: "I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image... and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
He then says: "This is the first resurrection."
If John's intention was to describe the resurrection of every believer, why identify only those who were martyred? Why not simply say, "I saw all the righteous raised"?
It seems to me that John intentionally identifies a particular group, just as he did earlier in Revelation 6, where the martyrs under the altar are told to wait until the full number of their fellow martyrs is complete.

So my question is this:
Where does Revelation 20 say that all believers are included in this resurrection?

I understand that other passages speak of the resurrection of believers. But Revelation 20 is the passage that actually describes the resurrection that inaugurates the Millennium, and it identifies the participants as the martyrs who remained faithful to Christ.

If we are going to expand that group to include every believer, I think the text itself should tell us to do that. I don't see where it does.

WilliamLhk said:

That will certainly be news to the Two Witnesses.

Can just them now: "But 1Tonne said we weren't supposed to rise so soon!"

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True. I admit that the witnesses are raised. But we are talking about mass resurections. Not 2 individuals.

I think it will be news to you when the tribulation happens and you say, "But the bible says we don't go through this. We are meant to go up in a secret rapture"

1Tonne said:

I believe in what Jesus said. The last day is the last day. So, the last day of time. And if He said that He will raise all believers on the last day, then I believe that over people who say that he did not actually mean the last day.
Also, Rev 20 speaks of the first resurrection. If it was the only, then why would it say the first.

I am waiting for Christs return with the martyrs. Not some special rapture.

Thanks for understanding. I see those verses as a natural reading without adding my view upon them and to me they seem very simple. I think that because many schools of thought have had preconceived ideas taught to them about an early rapture that many people now cannot see the plain reading of the text. It is a little bit like the verse in Isaiah that says, "Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And, seeing you will see and not perceive" (I am not saying that people who do not understand have grown dull as that is the following verse.)
In the end, I don't think it really bothers me if they do not understand. My passion is more about sharing the Gospel to those whom are outside of my circle of friends as well as my friends.
I do post on here every now and then about end times stuff and if someone understands then, great. If they don't then so be it. (As I said, my passion is sharing the Gospel to the lost and so I feel this is way more important than a rapture topic)

If, as you argue, 1 Thessalonians 4 is describing Christ's return to establish His Millennial reign, then we need to ask another question:
Who are "the dead in Christ" that rise at that point?
Revelation 20 answers that question. John writes: "I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God... and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years... This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:4-6)
John doesn't simply say, "all believers were raised." Instead, he specifically identifies those who participate in the resurrection that begins the thousand-year reign, those who were martyred for Christ and refused the Beast.
He then adds: "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished."
That creates a clear distinction between those raised before the Millennium and those who are not.
So, if 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is indeed describing Christ's return immediately before the Millennium, then Revelation 20 provides the inspired explanation of who is raised at that time. 1Thes 4:17 then describes what happens to the people who are then left alive at the end of time. So, the last day.
This is why I struggle with the view that every believer is raised at Christ's return. Revelation 20 appears to identify a specific group who participate in the first resurrection and then explicitly distinguishes them from "the rest of the dead." These martyrs are also signalled out as speacial people in other places in Revelation too.

So my question would be: if all believers are raised at Christ's return, why does John identify only the martyrs as participating in the resurrection that inaugurates the thousand-year reign?

In Daniel 12:1-2 the time of trouble is the short period where Satan is set free to make war. This is after the 1000 year reign.

From what I understand your sequence is this:
-Great Tribulation.
-All believers are raised and Christ returns
-Christ reigns for 1,000 years.
-The wicked are raised after the Millennium. ?

My difficulty is that this doesn't seem to be what Revelation 20 actually says.
John doesn't write: "I saw all believers raised." Instead, he writes: "I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image... and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
He then says: "This is the first resurrection."
If John's intention was to describe the resurrection of every believer, why identify only those who were martyred? Why not simply say, "I saw all the righteous raised"?
It seems to me that John intentionally identifies a particular group, just as he did earlier in Revelation 6, where the martyrs under the altar are told to wait until the full number of their fellow martyrs is complete.

So my question is this:
Where does Revelation 20 say that all believers are included in this resurrection?

I understand that other passages speak of the resurrection of believers. But Revelation 20 is the passage that actually describes the resurrection that inaugurates the Millennium, and it identifies the participants as the martyrs who remained faithful to Christ.

If we are going to expand that group to include every believer, I think the text itself should tell us to do that. I don't see where it does.

True. I admit that the witnesses are raised. But we are talking about mass resurections. Not 2 individuals.

I think it will be news to you when the tribulation happens and you say, "But the bible says we don't go through this. We are meant to go up in a secret rapture"

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Well ITone, that was a sketchy reply indeed. The very small quote from my post is taken out of context and is misleading.

Your interpretation relies upon human reasoning, not Scriptural reasoning.

Of course there is a last Day and I said only one last day. For Hebrews states… just as man is destined to die once and after that to face judgement. You add here and you add to the chronology of the Corinthians and Thessalonians clear accounts of the Day. You contort Scripture in an effort to find your interpretation. Your Scriptural reasoning is still very sketchy. Trust the Word and you will steer clear of faulty doctrine.