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Religious Persecution by the President of the United States

ThatRobGuy

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Give it a go. Take an 18 year old back to your Bahrain hotel room and let us know how you get on. Well, eventually you can let us know. You'll be put away for ten years. You could try Delhi. But it's life there.

Safer to stay home. It's one year in Alabama, or (gasp) a $6,000 fine.

So who takes it more seriously? I know who doesn't.

Comparing two outliers to one another isn't useful for identifying what the norms are.

There's also the gap between what's on paper, and what actually gets enforced.

On paper, the age of consent is 18 in Somalia.

However, per the human rights article I mentioned before, nearly half of females in Somalia are married off to older men before the age of 18.


For a broader picture
 
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Maine Progressive

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The problem is that those 'escaping' somewhere almost always bring the fundamental beliefs and values that created the problem in the first place with them.

People point to fundamentalist Islam as being an issue but the clue is in the name... fundamentals. A more extreme version of something inherently vile doesn't make the 'normal' version any less repugnant.

Somalis did the same in Sweden. Came in droves, congregated and isolated themselves with no attempt at integrated, and the same mindset and values that caused problems in their home country were brought with them. Now there are issues with drugs, gangs, murders, sexual assaults, rapes, you name it.
That has never been true. Yes their culture is different. But what they bring is the moderate version. I will assert, and I believe the evidence shows it. 1) The occasion of violent crimes by immigrants is lower in all places than the violent crime committed by natives. 2) The tension caused by cultural differences is the normal tension that always occurs when any new ethnic group begins assimilation. Misunderstandings abound. Fear and loathing grows on both sides. It usually takes a decade or more. Reference Irish, Italians, Chinese etc. It’s a long list.
 
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Laodicean60

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Unemployment has gone up, but not drastically. From Google AI:
Yes, the same underlying economic during Biden admin is happening to Trump. I know Pommers' number was off, but that was not what I replied about. Pommer corrected me about undocumented workers in the unemployment rate calculation; my logic was off.

We all gush over our presidents' economies, yet tables and charts give an accurate picture. We overhired during COVID because of artificial demand from stimulus; now we're losing employees because of the lack of demand. Looking at some countries' economies, China will do the most damage if they have a financial crisis. I expect unemployment to keep rising as the global economy slows.
 
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Laodicean60

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The unemployment rate measures how many people are without jobs, not how many jobs are looking for people that’s another statistic.
I get that, and now I think the reporting needs to change. I feel the unemployment rate should be for all working in America to give a true picture of a company and the economy's health.
 
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expos4ever

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I assert the following:

1. Practices or behaviors connected to religious belief should have no special immunity from criticism.

2. The practice of wearing hijabs is, I submit, unhealthy in many respects. For example, I believe it's promotes an unhealthy attitude towards human sexuality.

3. Even if Donald Trump is correct in criticizing the hijab, I would bet a year of paychecks that his motivation for doing so is entirely sinister - to appeal to racist and xenophobic sentiments.
 
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DaisyDay

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I get that, and now I think the reporting needs to change. I feel the unemployment rate should be for all working in America to give a true picture of a company and the economy's health.
I dunno, I think the unemployment rate should be the rate of the unemployed. Maybe the number you're looking for is the labor force participation rate?
 
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Bradskii

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Comparing two outliers to one another isn't useful for identifying what the norms are.
They're not outliers. Are they are not 'norms'. They are the laws of the land. There is no religious age of consent. Even when the Vatican increased it from 12 to 18 it was the law of that state that changed.

This is what you are attempting to argue.

People in a particular culture are generally of a specific religion.
Some people in that culture do things I don't like.
Therefore that religion is bad.
Therefore anyone exhibiting aspects of that religion is bad.

And please don't deny it. It was your argument right from the start. Kids are wearing the hijab therefore those Muslims can't be trusted with our womenfolk.

Farcical.
 
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stevevw

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Islam doesn't have a position on a specific age to update.
I mean updat to reality. To what is widely recognised as humane. We know more than any other time. We have moved on from the whacky ideas and beliefs we once had. We have enlightened minds and critical thinking.

You hear many good Muslims mention that their religion does not practice the barbaric ways in the Quran. So it seems some if not most have come to their senses.

But its the small and powerful radicals that take literally what the Quran says. But its not based on God but on hate and evil. The exact opposite. Satan is good at using religions to commit evil.
 
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stevevw

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The topic of slavery itself highlights the double-standard in how people talk about problematic behaviors (that I made reference to earlier)

Where, when misdeeds are done by the perceived "privileged" demographics, it gets the "no punches pulled" criticism, but when the perceived "disprivileged" groups participated (and still do participate) in the problematic behavior (and often times to a worse degree), it's the kid gloves treatment.
This is identity politics. Having a skewed view of the world through the lens of power relations based on religion, race, sex, gender and class. Which dismisses all the nuance (factors) about why people do what they do.

So slavery is given new meanings which did not apply back then. Its vitually re-writing history and reality. But the lies can easily be exposed with the facts. Which is happening now as more people question the narratives.
On the topic of slavery, "White people in the US" is where all of the conversations were/are focused...but the reality is, the US was one of the smaller offenders. Portugal and Spain were far worse in terms of volume, and Portuguese and Dutch were far worse in terms of brutality (even compared to the baseline brutality of the practice). The US was one of the few places (if not the only) where, among slaves, the birth rates exceeded the death rates.
The US and Britain were the least offenders and in fact the ones who began to end slavery. Thats how twisted the narrative has become by ideologues out of university who are brain washing young people.

Every nation had slaves. American Indian and African tribes enslaved each other and were brutal and barbaric. White Europeans were enslaved by Muslims in the Barbary wars. Many Muslims nations in the 3rd world still have slaves to this day. Where are the protestors on all these inhumane nations.
Where that ties into this conversation, much of the conflict with the Muslim world often gets chalked up to our modern foreign policy being the cause, and "we'd all just live in harmony if those darn Western colonialists hadn't meddled in the 1940s, and the US didn't have an interventionist policy"
We would not live in harmony with some of these radical ideologhies no matter what the west did. Its an ideological war and not one about who is most virtuous. All are fallen and guilty. All the world have done what they accuse the west of doing. They are hypocrites. There is no noble warrior or race or groups over other identities.

The whole identity thing is the problem. Is the ideological belief and religion. It divides people into groups pitted against each other over subjectively percieved wrongs and oppressions and labelling some groups bad and others good based on skin color and now gender. A new moral system that is based on hate.
When in reality, that conflict would have still existed even if we were isolationists this whole time. The Barbary pirates were taking American slaves when America was still barely even a country
Yes humans are fallen and will divide by nature. Fight over land and pocessions. The entire world was based on waring tribes and then nations against each other. Entire empires oppressing millions throughout history.

But no one ever mentions this. Just the bad white colonialist. They have been brain washed by modern ideologues from academia. Which stemmed from the cultural revolutions of the 60's. basically a rebellion against God. The Tower of Babel.
Hitchens sums it up quite well.

Point of reference, the US was took 400k slaves -- which, to clarify, nobody is denying is a terrible act and shameful part of our history. But Spain, Portugal, The Dutch, and the Barbary Pirates (who took American and European slaves, for no other reason than "because you're infidels, and our book says we can") each took millions.

Yet, every time there's any conversation about slavery, the focus is almost exclusively on the US's history in the practice.
I think thats because its present time and present time is always more real and relevant. In some ways its wanting to live in the past. Wanting to make out the present is still as bad as the past. Not seeing the positive changes then looking for common ways to get along today and move on. Which means forgiveness and only Christ can achieve this.

Fundementally this is definitely a culture war. As to what culture, what is the best culture that the US and west should adopt is the big question that everyone is fighting over.

I think as the world has become smaller and other cultures are mixing this is leading to the big question as people are losing their identity. Its a confused mess of conflicting ideas and beliefs. All I know is that a nation must be united in their culture and belief. Otherwise no matter what there will be conflict.

In that sense you are right. No matter how the world evolved it would have turned out the same way where different cultures began to encroach on each other and either had to let go or adjust their culture. Or fight for their culture. The more western nations invite other cultures and the more those cultures increase the more conflict will happen.

I think this is linked back to the unreal idea of the academic ideologues who believed in some DEI uptopia that could somehow magically create people and harmony. Because they never really believed in God or any truth and thought society, culture and reality itself was a social construction and could be reimagined by human as the gods of their own world.
 
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Laodicean60

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I dunno, I think the unemployment rate should be the rate of the unemployed.
Knowing now, because of Pommer, the tax-paying undocumented are not counted, nor can they receive unemployment benefits, whose information is fed to the government for unemployment numbers.
What bothers me is that tax paying employee are not authorised for unemployment insurance<------ The optics of slave labor for me. Openly made to work without benefits, all for corporate profit.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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They're not outliers. Are they are not 'norms'. They are the laws of the land. There is no religious age of consent. Even when the Vatican increased it from 12 to 18 it was the law of that state that changed.

This is what you are attempting to argue.

People in a particular culture are generally of a specific religion.
Some people in that culture do things I don't like.
Therefore that religion is bad.
Therefore anyone exhibiting aspects of that religion is bad.

And please don't deny it. It was your argument right from the start. Kids are wearing the hijab therefore those Muslims can't be trusted with our womenfolk.

Farcical.
In the Muslim world, having strictly enforced age of consent laws (that are equally applied to men and women) is most certainly not the norm, as I laid out before, there are a lot of those nations that have ages "on paper", but rule by cleric means religious leadership has ultimate veto power over any secular laws that may happen to be on the books.

In the US, that sort of thing is not the norm.

By brushing it off as "some people", that's attempting to minimize the prevalence of some of the behaviors in question.


While neither should be considered socially acceptable:
"Alabama allows some girls to get married at 16" (at an extremely low prevalence)
vs.
"25-50% of girls being married off before the age of 18, some as young as 9"

It also ignores the distinction that there's a big difference between
"A 20 year old and 17 year old are doing something stupid and getting married, and their parents being dumb enough to sign off on it"
vs.
"Cleric marrying a 14 year old girl off to a 45 year old man against her will"


This is reminiscent of those arguments about "all religions have their extremists", as to ignore the scope of problems, and pretend that the problems are evenly prevalent and evenly distributed.
(sort of like when people used to go dig up an abortion clinic arson case from 7 years ago committed by a Christian extremist, in efforts to create a counterbalance to the stuff that goes on every day in Islam-ruled countries)

The reality is, some religions are worse than others regarding likelihood of problematic thinking and behaviors.
 
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Bradskii

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In the Muslim world...
My, how you've drifted away so far from what you were complaining about.
...it's definitely more than just a bit concerning that they feel the need to make 5 year olds wear them when you think about what that implies. (are there that many guys in that community who would otherwise be attracted to girls that young?? if so, sounds like a cultural practice that we'd rather not import from that part of the world, as that would be a safety concern for anyone who has a non-Muslim daughter who doesn't wear one living in that area).
Importing into the US? Ah yes. It was the situation in US you were complaining about. Now it's been expanded to a general broadside against 'the Muslim world'.

Thanks for letting us know your thoughts.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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My, how you've drifted away so far from what you were complaining about.

Importing into the US? Ah yes. It was the situation in US you were complaining about. Now it's been expanded to a general broadside against 'the Muslim world'.

Thanks for letting us know your thoughts.

That's where the "culture clash" migrations are largely coming from, the Muslim world (specifically nations that happen to have particular regressive versions of it)


Nations creating policies that ruin their own country, and then the people from those countries wanting to go to a westernized country (largely for the economic backdrop, and nothing else) with little-to-no desire for integration, is a problem.


To use a westernized-only example.

If I decided that the US has become far too dangerous as a result of too many people with guns, so I decided to move to your country, but insisted on keeping my guns.
 
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Bradskii

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That's where the "culture clash" migrations are largely coming from...
Yeah, all those kids wearing hijabs (apparently aka 'lust deflectors' by some). Get down to your local Mosque and tell them what you really think! Get a few people together and protect your women from these paedophiles! No longer are you going to allow the import of 'a culture where pedophilia and sex abuse is normalized'. Where 'where FGM and sexual violence devastate women'. You're not going to stand for 'underage polygamy'. 'We don't want that here'. Heaven forbid that you and your friends will stand for a 'culture where attraction to girls that young is somewhat normalized'. Tell them that you're not going to stand for people 'marrying off little girls to creepy old men'.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong...

 
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ThatRobGuy

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Yeah, all those kids wearing hijabs (apparently aka 'lust deflectors' by some). Get down to your local Mosque and tell them what you really think! Get a few people together and protect your women from these paedophiles! No longer are you going to allow the import of 'a culture where pedophilia and sex abuse is normalized'. Where 'where FGM and sexual violence devastate women'. You're not going to stand for 'underage polygamy'. 'We don't want that here'. Heaven forbid that you and your friends will stand for a 'culture where attraction to girls that young is somewhat normalized'. Tell them that you're not going to stand for people 'marrying off little girls to creepy old men'.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong...

So what exactly is the position you're defending here? That people don't have a the right to have a culture (or cultural preferences) in their country? And wanting to keep out the negative cultural aspect of other countries is somehow unacceptable?

If a person prefers Somalian social norms/customs/practices...there's already a country for that, it's called Somalia.

Have you seen the footage of what's going on in some of the European cities? ...I'd rather not have that here.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I assert the following:

1. Practices or behaviors connected to religious belief should have no special immunity from criticism.

2. The practice of wearing hijabs is, I submit, unhealthy in many respects. For example, I believe it's promotes an unhealthy attitude towards human sexuality.

3. Even if Donald Trump is correct in criticizing the hijab, I would bet a year of paychecks that his motivation for doing so is entirely sinister - to appeal to racist and xenophobic sentiments.

If I may push back a bit...

If #'s 1 and 2 are true, then what is the basis for asserting #3?


If circumstances of choice aren't above criticism, and the practices themselves are degrading and an offense to our cultural norms and rightful objections could be made to them, then what's the basis for labeling objections as any sort of "ism" or "phobia" considering that the reasons for those sentiments are precisely because of the aforementioned voluntary behaviors?

Now, to be clear, I'm not denying that there are people who exist who would hate someone for having more skin pigment,, obviously people like that exist, but we can't avoid telling the truth or having an honest conversation just because the truth may happen to embolden a bad person.

IE: "Because a racist person could use this to amplify their message if I acknowledge XYZ is true, I'll just pretend that the truth is not the truth"


We're seeing it in this thread, people desperately trying to find "feature parity" between a southern state in the US and Islamic countries on the topic of women's rights and protection of females just to be able to say "Well, we have no right to judge". There isn't feature parity. If you're a young girl or woman, you'll have better protections and more robust rights in any of the southern states than you would in one of countries that codifies Islamic law.
 
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Bradskii

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So what exactly is the position you're defending here?
I'm not defending anything. I'm criticising the crude mindset that denigrates every member of a group in the US by reference to what might be happening overseas, and then demands that none of them should have been allowed into the country. Because, hey...it'll dilute your culture. Kids wearing hajibs? Well, their families will be rejected! Think that arranged marriages are OK? Well, not in your country!

It's the same mindset that accuses people of eating pets. And it obviously doesn't have to be true. All that's needed is a reason to class people as 'them' to differentiate them from 'us'. 'Us' being people like you.

If you want to start a thread on genital mutilation, or girls being forced into marriage at the age of 12, then go start one. You'll be talking about problems in countries you've probably never been to. But that's OK. You don't need to have been there to form an opinion on what you consider to be immoral. But don't dare to tell me that people from those countries will not be allowed into the US simply because you automatically tar all those who do with the same brush. And that you can denigrate all those who are already in the US for the same reason.

It's not just moronic logic. It's not just a pathetic example of Blud und Boden, but it leads to the same results. New Zealand was the most horrendous example, but it happens all too frequently in the US:


And every single gunman, every single white nationalist will have said the same thing: 'We don't want these people here'. And that's exactly what you've been saying for umpteen posts.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I'm not defending anything. I'm criticising the crude mindset that denigrates every member of a group in the US by reference to what might be happening overseas, and then demands that none of them should have been allowed into the country. Because, hey...it'll dilute your culture. Kids wearing hajibs? Well, their families will be rejected! Think that arranged marriages are OK? Well, not in your country!

It's the same mindset that accuses people of eating pets. And it obviously doesn't have to be true. All that's needed is a reason to class people as 'them' to differentiate them from 'us'. 'Us' being people like you.

If you want to start a thread on genital mutilation, or girls being forced into marriage at the age of 12, then go start one. You'll be talking about problems in countries you've probably never been to. But that's OK. You don't need to have been there to form an opinion on what you consider to be immoral. But don't dare to tell me that people from those countries will not be allowed into the US simply because you automatically tar all those who do with the same brush. And that you can denigrate all those who are already in the US for the same reason.

It's not just moronic logic. It's not just a pathetic example of Blud und Boden, but it leads to the same results. New Zealand was the most horrendous example, but it happens all too frequently in the US:


And every single gunman, every single white nationalist will have said the same thing: 'We don't want these people here'. And that's exactly what you've been saying for umpteen posts.
Mmhmm....

And if we count every instance of religion-inspired violence (and things we in the western world would constitute as extremism) that takes place in the Muslim world, and itemize it the same way as the article you linked did, you think it would total up to more than 16 over a period of 36 years?

Hint:
Somalia, Afghanistan, Brunei, Iran, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen all have the death penalty for "homosexual behavior"...

Point of reference:
In 2024, a Houthi court in Yemen sentenced nine men to death on sodomy charges, seven by stoning and two by crucifixion, while 23 others received prison terms of six months to twenty years for related charges. A month later, a separate Yemeni court sentenced 13 students to death for "spreading homosexuality,"

If that all happened in the course of a year...you think perhaps, maybe just maybe, that ideology has a record on human rights that's worse than that of Christian countries?

Note: those are state sponsored actions, not "actions by randos without the support of the US government".


Who was the last gay person or woman who was sentenced by the US government to public stoning or hanging for running afoul of extreme fundamentalist Christian norms? ...I'll wait.
 
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Bradskii

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Mmhmm....

And if we count every instance of religion-inspired violence (and things we in the western world would constitute as extremism) that takes place in the Muslim world, and itemize it the same way as the article you linked did, you think it would total up to more than 16 over a period of 36 years?
So there's religiously inspired violence and racism across the world and that therefore makes what you say acceptable?

Nope. Sorry, but I'm not seeing any logic there whatsoever. Apart from a trite 'There are lots of other people prompted into violence by denigrating religious groups so why can't I do it?'

I know. Let's make it more specific to what that actually is - a schoolyard level whataboutism.

'Robert, you've been saying a lot of unjustified things about Imran that simply aren't true. And it's prompted some of your friends to treat him very unfairly. I'm holding you partly responsible because of what you've been saying for what they did'.

'But sir, lots of people like Imran get beat up in other schools because they're not the same as us. Why pick on me for saying anything?'

How would you explain to young Robert how utterly facile his argument is and how it doesn't absolve him from any blame?
 
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High Fidelity

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That has never been true. Yes their culture is different. But what they bring is the moderate version. I will assert, and I believe the evidence shows it. 1) The occasion of violent crimes by immigrants is lower in all places than the violent crime committed by natives. 2) The tension caused by cultural differences is the normal tension that always occurs when any new ethnic group begins assimilation. Misunderstandings abound. Fear and loathing grows on both sides. It usually takes a decade or more. Reference Irish, Italians, Chinese etc. It’s a long list.
That is simply not the reality for Europe with Islamic immigration.

We have very few problems with other European immigrants, apart from a few countries where organised crime is more prevalent, e.g. Romania and Bulgaria.

The tale of Islam is universal, it may just take you longer to recognise it over there, but rest assured it will present itself if it's allowed to take root.
 
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