Religious Persecution by the President of the United States

2PhiloVoid · Friday at 12:37 PM

Say it aint so said:
Pretty consistent with a POTUS who brought us the Muslim ban.
In fact the same president who brought us "whites only" asylum.

My apologies, but was this response meant to be directed to me or to someone else? Since you didn't use the 'reply' function which automatically includes the post to which you are responding, it's difficult to tell.

2PhiloVoid · Friday at 12:38 PM

Vambram said:
Islamists are incompatible with Western culture.

And Communists (even though Marxist informed Communism is sludge from a Germanic think tank).

Say it aint so · Friday at 12:40 PM

2PhiloVoid said:
My apologies, but was this response meant to be directed to me or to someone else? Since you didn't use the 'reply' function which automatically includes the post to which you are responding, it's difficult to tell.

No sir/ma'am. In response to the OP.

2PhiloVoid · Friday at 12:41 PM

Say it aint so said:
No sir/ma'am. In response to the OP.

Sir will do. And thanks.

Laodicean60 · Friday at 2:03 PM

Pommer said:
Are the jobs typically filled by undocumented immigrants usually those included in unemployment figures?

You are correct it's the JOLTS data that would show it, but of the 8 million who are working, there is a small amount of displacement. For every job loss, there's an opening if needed, unless Tyson or Hilton turns them into slaves trying to do more with less.

Pommer said:
We desperately NEED immigrants

Yes, big names are hurting for undocumented workers. I think Trump has wisened up to the need for seasonal workers.

I just didn't realize the number was so large from AI, if the survey is correct. Because it's unlawful to hire undocumented immigrants. I guess those greedy corporations are above the law.

Estimated numbers by major industry (based on recent American Community Survey analyses) include:

Industry	Estimated undocumented workers
Construction	~1.55 million
Hospitality (hotels, restaurants)	~1.00 million
Professional services	~970,000
Manufacturing	~870,000
Retail	~709,000
General services	~501,000
Transportation & warehousing	~461,000
Agriculture	~245,000
Wholesale trade	~193,000
Mining	~22,000

DaisyDay · Friday at 2:45 PM

Laodicean60 said:
Your logic is off. We've had deportations last year, and unemployment didn't go up. So I don't believe that the impact of immigrants is as people think.

Unemployment has gone up, but not drastically. From Google AI:

2026: ~4.30% (year-to-date) -T
2025: 4.20% -T
2024: 4.02% -B
2023: 3.64% -B
2022: 3.65% -B
2021: 5.35% -B
2020: 8.06% -T

Laodicean60 said:
The true deflation affecting us is global.

The economy is global.

wing2000 · Friday at 3:22 PM

Vambram said:
Islamists are incompatible with Western culture.

You failed to answer the question.

Vambram · Friday at 3:42 PM

wing2000 said:
You failed to answer the question.

No. I did not.

2PhiloVoid · Friday at 4:04 PM

Vambram said:
Islamists are incompatible with Western culture.

And that is something I don't think the U.S. Founders quite understood to the fullest extent during the Colonial Era. Some leaders back then may have known the difference in the extent to which Islam might be compatible with Colonial and Post-Colonial legal thought, but for the most part---and Thomas Jefferson was no exception despite the fact that he owned and apparently read The Quran---they had a seemingly half-baked awareness about what Islamic potential could be.

Nevertheless, they were more merely tolerant of it than they were embracing of it. It wasn't something they readily recommended but rather might allow, but I'm sure they had little intention to authorize any implementation of Sharia Law anywhere in the U.S. States of that time.

The Founding Fathers and Islam (May 2002) - Library of Congress Information Bulletin

With more than 55 million items, the Library's Manuscript Division contains the papers of 23 presidents, from George Washington to Calvin Coolidge.

www.loc.gov

WashU Expert: How Thomas Jefferson's Quran became test case for religious liberty

Tazeen Ali, an assistant professor of religion and politics at Washington University in St. Louis, says Thomas Jefferson's Quran confronts us with the question of what the founders themselves knew they couldn't avoid: Will the promises of 1776 stop at the edge of our own religion, or will they...

source.washu.edu

America’s Founders And The Quran: A Forgotten Legacy Of Religious Freedom

At a time when the Trump administration has renewed a travel ban on various Muslim majority countries in Africa and across the Middle East, the Quran owned by John Adams is but one indication that our nation’s founders regarded Islam — as well as other, non-Western, non-Christian faiths — as worthy

religionunplugged.com

DaisyDay · Friday at 4:16 PM

Vambram said:
Islamists are incompatible with Western culture.

Perhaps, but most Muslims are not Islamists just as most Christians are not YECs or Christian Nationalists.

Pommer · Friday at 4:31 PM

Laodicean60 said:
Your logic is off. We've had deportations last year, and unemployment didn't go up. So I don't believe that the impact of immigrants is as people think.

The unemployment rate measures how many people are without jobs, not how many jobs are looking for people that’s another statistic.

stevevw · Friday at 6:19 PM

Bradskii said:
In passing...https://visitingthevatican.com/age-of-consent-in-vatican-city/

'In July 2013, Pope Francis officially promulgated Law IX, which introduced a major reform to the penal code of the Vatican City State. This landmark legislation explicitly raised the minimum legal age to consent to sexual activity from 12 to 18.'

I am glad they updated their position. All this is showing is that Islam should also update their position. Denounce underage marriage.

The bible also mentions slavery and religion justified slavery. But Christians came to their senses and abolished slavery. They were the only nations that did. Still today like underage marriage there is slavery that is condoned by some religions.

Most of their practices were not even due to religion. They were the product of that time. Such as economics where bond servants and slaves were the only payment method. Women married young because thats all they were worth. As servants and child bearers.

But we know much more now and it was mostly Christian nations who stopped a lot of the outdated and inhumane practices.

Bradskii · Friday at 6:44 PM

stevevw said:
I am glad they updated their position. All this is showing is that Islam should also update their position.

Islam doesn't have a position on a specific age to update.

ThatRobGuy · Friday at 6:46 PM

stevevw said:
I am glad they updated their position. All this is showing is that Islam should also update their position. Denounce underage marriage.

The bible also mentions slavery and religion justified slavery. But Christians came to their senses and abolished slavery. They were the only nations that did. Still today like underage marriage there is slavery that is condoned by some religions.

Most of their practices were not even due to religion. They were the product of that time. Such as economics where bond servants and slaves were the only payment method. Women married young because thats all they were worth. As servants and child bearers.

But we know much more now and it was mostly Christian nations who stopped a lot of the outdated and inhumane practices.

The topic of slavery itself highlights the double-standard in how people talk about problematic behaviors (that I made reference to earlier)

Where, when misdeeds are done by the perceived "privileged" demographics, it gets the "no punches pulled" criticism, but when the perceived "disprivileged" groups participated (and still do participate) in the problematic behavior (and often times to a worse degree), it's the kid gloves treatment.

On the topic of slavery, "White people in the US" is where all of the conversations were/are focused...but the reality is, the US was one of the smaller offenders. Portugal and Spain were far worse in terms of volume, and Portuguese and Dutch were far worse in terms of brutality (even compared to the baseline brutality of the practice). The US was one of the few places (if not the only) where, among slaves, the birth rates exceeded the death rates.

Where that ties into this conversation, much of the conflict with the Muslim world often gets chalked up to our modern foreign policy being the cause, and "we'd all just live in harmony if those darn Western colonialists hadn't meddled in the 1940s, and the US didn't have an interventionist policy"

When in reality, that conflict would have still existed even if we were isolationists this whole time. The Barbary pirates were taking American slaves when America was still barely even a country

Hitchens sums it up quite well.

Point of reference, the US was took 400k slaves -- which, to clarify, nobody is denying is a terrible act and shameful part of our history. But Spain, Portugal, The Dutch, and the Barbary Pirates (who took American and European slaves, for no other reason than "because you're infidels, and our book says we can") each took millions.

Yet, every time there's any conversation about slavery, the focus is almost exclusively on the US's history in the practice.

ThatRobGuy · Friday at 6:49 PM

Bradskii said:
Islam doesn't have a position on a specific age to update.

They probably should.

According to their writings, how old was his wife Aisha when he married her and how old was she when he saw fit to consummate the marriage?

Wives of Muhammad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hint: if you guess a double digit number for either of those, you're guessing too high.

Given that Muhammad is such a critical figure in Islam (so much so, that even drawing a cartoon of him can get you killed...seems like a guy they hold in pretty high esteem), the guy they revere to that degree engaging in that kind of thing seems to set a bit of a problematic permission structure, does it not?

If the writings about Jesus in the Bible included passages saying "if someone tries to steal from you, kill them" and a bunch of Christians were shooting people for shoplifting, people wouldn't have any qualms about connecting the two. So why is there an objection to using the same logical lens to evaluate Islam?

If the guy they revere the most (and who was the "hero of the story" in their holy book) was sleeping with minors, only stands to reason that the "sleeping with minors isn't a problem" mentality would be more pervasive in that community compared to others where that sort of thing is frowned upon, correct?

Bradskii · Friday at 7:33 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
They probably should.

A Christian, Islamic, Judaic or Hindu specific age of consent is meaningless because people of any religion are required to observe the laws of the country (or state) in which they live. For example, sixteen in Alabama and Israel, 18 in Egypt and India, 21 in Bahrain.

Bradskii · Friday at 7:38 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
If the guy they revere the most (and who was the "hero of the story" in their holy book) was sleeping with minors, only stands to reason that the "sleeping with minors isn't a problem" mentality would be more pervasive in that community compared to others where that sort of thing is frowned upon, correct?

Mary was reckoned to be 12 or 13 when she married Joseph. Are you saying that him sleeping with a minor 2,000 years ago is a cause of some ''sleeping with minors isn't a problem" mentality in Christian society today?

What an odd thing to think. I'm not sure that you thought this through.

ThatRobGuy · Friday at 8:57 PM

Bradskii said:
Mary was reckoned to be 12 or 13 when she married Joseph. Are you saying that him sleeping with a minor 2,000 years ago is a cause of some ''sleeping with minors isn't a problem" mentality in Christian society today?

What an odd thing to think. I'm not sure that you thought this through.

Oh I've thought it through, but my answer would likely get me a warning or 7-day ban from CF.

If there were fewer rules and restrictions on here, I'd give my honest answer.

That aside, Joseph isn't the "hero of the story" in Christianity, Jesus is, and the behaviors of Jesus (as described in the bible) are very different than the behaviors of Muhammad.

The fact that majority-Christian countries can have multiple political factions that are at odds with each other (quite hostile I might add), but all having the ability of citing the words of Jesus as justifications for the policy positions shows that there's a difference between the two.

Does that happen in Islamic countries? Can the liberal/progressive entities in those countries point to any positions/statements of Muhammed that support their positions on such matters?

In Christian countries, both liberal and conservative entities can at least make somewhat cogent arguments for their positions on the basis of "Jesus said..." or a biblical principle... the same isn't true with Muhammad.

In terms of "we'll kill you if you disagree with us" and "women are property" ideologies, Islam is at the top of the list...no two ways about it.

ThatRobGuy · Friday at 9:10 PM

Bradskii said:
A Christian, Islamic, Judaic or Hindu specific age of consent is meaningless because people of any religion are required to observe the laws of the country (or state) in which they live. For example, sixteen in Alabama and Israel, 18 in Egypt and India, 21 in Bahrain.

And how does that shake out country-by-country in terms of "age of consent" laws and how dilligently they're enforced?

In the US (and most other western countries), if you get inappropriate with a minor, you end up on a special list, are the shame of your family, and have to notify neighbors if you move. Is that happening in Muslim majority countries when a 46 year old dude takes liberties with a 14 year old? Or is it a "she showed too much ankle and forehead, so it was actually her fault for tempting my lust" type of situation?

Bradskii · Friday at 9:30 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
Does that happen in Islamic countries? Can the liberal/progressive entities in those countries point to any positions/statements of Muhammed that support their positions on such matters?

In Christian countries, both liberal and conservative entities can at least make somewhat cogent arguments for their positions on the basis of "Jesus said..." or a biblical principle... the same isn't true with Muhammad.

So some guy has 'knowledge' of a young girl in the distant past (we'll include Mohammed as well) and that is somehow relevant to the age of consent today? As in 'Hey, he did it, so it's perfectly ok for me'. And I can't recall Jesus giving any guidance.

Please, that's nonsense. And anyone who does actually think like that is an idiot, whatever their religion. That's why we have age of consent laws. Which everyone must obey. I don't see anyone claiming a religious exception or using their holy book as an excuse. So please don't imply that some do.

ThatRobGuy said:
And how does that shake out country-by-country in terms of "age of consent" laws and how dilligently they're enforced?

In the US (and most other western countries), if you get inappropriate with a minor, you end up on a special list, are the shame of your family, and have to notify neighbors if you move. Is that happening in Muslim majority countries when a 46 year old dude takes liberties with a 14 year old? Or is it a "she showed too much ankle and forehead, so it was actually her fault for tempting my lust" type of situation?

Give it a go. Take an 18 year old back to your Bahrain hotel room and let us know how you get on. Well, eventually you can let us know. You'll be put away for ten years. You could try Delhi. But it's life there.

Safer to stay home. It's one year in Alabama, or (gasp) a $6,000 fine.

So who takes it more seriously? I know who doesn't.

Religious Persecution by the President of the United States

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