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Put one in the tube at the drive thru at the bank before you drive off.
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Universe: fine-tuned or not?
- Thread starter NxNW
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Put one in the tube at the drive thru at the bank before you drive off.
Bradskii
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Whether God allows it or not is a very difficult theological question. And I've never seen anything that comes anywhere close to a reasonable answer. But this not a question of evil per se. It's that if you don't accept that we've emerged from the slime via the thoughtless means of the evolutionary process, then far from God allowing evil, He intentionally designed a bad system (a lot which doesn't work properly), with aspects of which He knew would lead to considerable evil.
This isn't simply disobeying Him and eating an apple when told not to. There are plenty of ways to tell if someone is sinful without putting half the population at some considerable risk.
And you didn't address the faults in the design I listed.
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On of the things I enjoy so much in this forum is how much I learn. I'm constantly researching one thing or another. I had no idea who the "Three children of Fatima" were until just now when I googled it.
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Hans Blaster
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There is so much junk in this yard (non-fine tuning content) that even Hoyle's tornado couldn't construct an argument from it. So let's talk about the state that sent Fred Hoyle on his journey to junkyard tornadoes, panspermia, and setting the stage for "fine tuning" as an argument for a creator being. It all has to do with an excited state of a single, but common isotope -- one that makes up nearly 20% of your mass -- Carbon 12.
Before how a nuclear excited state is evidence for "fine tuning", we need to understand why carbon (and specifically C-12) is important.
Carbon is the most important element for life as we know it. We literally call it "carbon-based life" to contrast to speculations about possible life based on other elements (usually silicon). The start of the expansion contains no elements at all, so where do they come from?
When the expansion cools things enough to have electrons and nucleons (neutrons and protons) then nuclear reactions that can make composite nuclei start and continue until the expansion cools such that the nuclear reactions stop. The products of that "Big Bang Nucleosynthesis" are the stable isotopes: H-1 (proton), H-2 (deuterium), He-3, He-4 (a/k/a the alpha particle), Li-6, and Li-7. One thing that is evident from that list is a lack of nuclei with mass number (A = number of protons + number of neutrons in the nucleus) A=5 and stops before A=8. This is because there are no stable A=5 or A=8 nuclei. This creates a barrier to building heavier nuclei (like carbon) since nuclei either grow through fusion of like nuclei, or by adding a light particle (neutron [n], proton [p], or He-4 [alpha]) to it. The same problem happens in the other engine for making nuclei -- stars.
Stars spend most of their time converting hydrogen to helium as a power source and build up a core that is almost pure He-4 (~99%). If stars are going to *make* heavier elements (and they do, this is not about proving stellar nucleosynthesis, but how Hoyle used the known facts of it to demonstrate the Hoyle state and from it imply some "fine tuning") we need to fuse helium and this is where things go a bit wobbly out there in reality land...
Smashing 2 He-4 nuclei (2 alpha particles) together give Be-8, which is one of those unstable A=8 nuclei. Be-8 has slightly more energy than 2 alpha particles (and it is a resonant state) so it decays spontaneously into two alpha particles in a few femtoseconds. If while Be-8 exists, a third alpha particle joins the party. The Be-8+alpha configuration has an energy slightly lower than a resonant excited state of C-12, so sometimes it transitions to that state. From the excited, unbound state of C-12 most of the time it decays to 3 alphas, but in about 1 in 2400 times, it emits a gamma ray and transitions to a bound state of C-12.
Through this convoluted path (3 alpha particles in close proximity within femtoseconds, transition to excited C-12 state, then rare decay to a stable state the He-burning "triple-alpha" process creates Carbon and does so in bulk in stars above about 1/3 the mass of the Sun, leaping over the A=8 gap and creates a path for *EVERY* element.
In 1954 Fred Hoyle, while trying to work out the basic nucleosynthesis path beyond H/He/Li, realized that carbon (one of the most abundant of such elements) must have a robust formation path and *predicted* the existence of that excited, resonant state of C-12. Within a few years the existence of this excited C-12 state was confirmed and it has since been known as "the Hoyle State".
Background info you can check out:
Carbon-12 - Wikipedia
Beryllium-8 - Wikipedia
Triple-alpha process - Wikipedia
(Finally) "Fine tuning":
If everything was the same, but the Hoyle state didn't exist production of carbon would be a lot harder carbon and other heavy elements. (I could not find a source for massive star evolution in a "Hoyle-state-free universe". All I keep finding are apologists crowing about "design".)
Because making an excited state of an atom, molecule, or nucleus "disappear" is not physical, the best way to think about making the Hoyle state "go away" is to shift it out of resonance with the Be8+alpha state so that their is no "flow" by changing the strength of the strong nuclear interaction slightly. This would change the binding energies and excited states of all the nuclei, some more than others. With some "non-Hoyle" values the Be8 binding energy changes and *it* becomes a bound state allowing for a 2-alpha process and later Be-burning (instead of C-burning) that sets up the paths to higher mass elements.
Stars burning strangely make life in the multiverse more likely | New Scientist
Supporters of the multiverse often cite a specific reaction in stars that seems tuned for life, making our universe improbable – but now there’s a new idea
www.newscientist.com
(preprint version of paper:
Stellar Helium Burning in Other Universes: A solution to the triple alpha fine-tuning problem
Motivated by the possible existence of other universes, with different values for the fundamental constants, this paper considers stellar models in universes where $^8$Be is stable. Many previous authors have noted that stars in our universe would have difficulty producing carbon and other heavy...
arxiv.org
None of this "fine tuning" stuff is simple and so much of it is built on ignorance of how "alternative" values of constants would actually behave.
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Hans Blaster
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Maybe I'm not getting the metaphor, but is "Timmy" a tau lepton?
and "the devil" the decay rate?
I'm not sure what this "red herring has to do with the topic.
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Before I attempt to answer your design objections (which took me a few minutes to find as there have been so many posts in teh meantime), I'm going to make some general observations first -
#1. Theological - we claim the universe is fallen and in a state of decay. It's well known that it is moving towards increasing entropy and is "doomed" anyway. This includes the presences of decay and disease.
Your tooth ache falls into the category of "Decay" despite the fact the saliva in your mouth washes away acid and continually deposits crucial minerals like calcium and phosphate back into the outer layer of enamel, reversing micro-damage. This requires about two hours after eating to work effectively.
If it weren't for the saliva you'd be going to the dentist far more often (see engineering trade-offs). It has other functions - Saliva is an essential bodily fluid that keeps your mouth comfortable, initiates the digestive process and defends against harmful bacteria. It acts as a multi-functional lubricant, disease-fighter, and cleaning agent every single day.
Wisdom teeth almost exclusively cause problems in countries where the diet consists of soft foods. Through most of human history, the average diet consisted of foods which required more work to chew, resulting in better jaw development with more room for the teeth.
#2. Engineering Trade-offs - Many "bad designs" are necessary trade-offs for bipedalism (walking upright) or our massive brains. For example, a narrow birth canal is a consequence of an upright posture, which frees our hands to build and create. If we walked on all fours like most animals we would not be free to develop hands which use tools the way they do.
There is no such thing as an objectively "perfect" body without limits. Every biological system requires compromises in energy, space, and functionality.
3. The Philosophical Response: Flawed Designs are Still Designed. Pointing out a poor design (like a broken-down car or a badly built house) actually concedes that it was designed in the first place. A suboptimal or broken design does not prove the absence of an agent; it only implies the maker was limited, constrained, or that the item fell into disrepair (the fall and it's consequences).
There's a link to a creationist website here with some arguments about "bad design"
answersingenesis.org
On back pain, igoring the fall and subsequent genetic issues, a lot of modern back pain is caused by bad posture, lack of regular exercise, prolonged sitting (in our sedenary society), improper lifting techniques, and excess body weight. Go for a walk to your local shopping centre and see how many obese Australian citizens there are today. When I was young most people were fairly slim.
We can't blame God for that.
On your complaint about the neck and the RLN as they like to call it, i lifted this from a Creatinist website -
answersingenesis.org
There's an argument here in regard to your objection about backward wiring in the retina, with a brief summary below.
On the pelvis, the author Genesis noted the difficult births that women expeience, quoting it as a part of disobedience by the original Eve. Whether this was the real explanation or whether the author seized was trying to make a theological statement is a moot point.
If it was evolution, then it hasn't done a good job either.
The appendix - The appendix
On Mucous in which originates in the sinues - Mucin in the Mucous | The Institute for Creation Research
The human body is an incredibly complex structure and it can expect to operate for 70 to 100 years in an environment of heat and cold from the tropics to the artic, infrared and ultraviolet radiation, varying weather, in and under the water for limited periods, subject to a lot of mechanical stress, repair itself most of the time, be able to wield tools, drive, sing, play the guitar, perform ballet, run marathons, build houses, and most of all think.
It doesn't do too badly, even if atheists are keen to do away with the God which they're going to meet anyay. As I said in a previous post, the issue of evil and suffering is what you might call a catalyst towards our decisions to choose for God or against Him.
Even the demonic realm is a spritual enzyme if you pardon the experession - it pushes us towards evil choices both individually (eg, Charles Manson, Ivan Milat) and collectively (eg. Hitler's German, Stalin's Russ), without being changed itself.
We move towards being wheat or weeds each day.
I'm also giving up on this thread. I've said enough. I won't change your mind and you most certainly won't change mine.
#1. Theological - we claim the universe is fallen and in a state of decay. It's well known that it is moving towards increasing entropy and is "doomed" anyway. This includes the presences of decay and disease.
Your tooth ache falls into the category of "Decay" despite the fact the saliva in your mouth washes away acid and continually deposits crucial minerals like calcium and phosphate back into the outer layer of enamel, reversing micro-damage. This requires about two hours after eating to work effectively.
If it weren't for the saliva you'd be going to the dentist far more often (see engineering trade-offs). It has other functions - Saliva is an essential bodily fluid that keeps your mouth comfortable, initiates the digestive process and defends against harmful bacteria. It acts as a multi-functional lubricant, disease-fighter, and cleaning agent every single day.
Wisdom teeth almost exclusively cause problems in countries where the diet consists of soft foods. Through most of human history, the average diet consisted of foods which required more work to chew, resulting in better jaw development with more room for the teeth.
#2. Engineering Trade-offs - Many "bad designs" are necessary trade-offs for bipedalism (walking upright) or our massive brains. For example, a narrow birth canal is a consequence of an upright posture, which frees our hands to build and create. If we walked on all fours like most animals we would not be free to develop hands which use tools the way they do.
There is no such thing as an objectively "perfect" body without limits. Every biological system requires compromises in energy, space, and functionality.
3. The Philosophical Response: Flawed Designs are Still Designed. Pointing out a poor design (like a broken-down car or a badly built house) actually concedes that it was designed in the first place. A suboptimal or broken design does not prove the absence of an agent; it only implies the maker was limited, constrained, or that the item fell into disrepair (the fall and it's consequences).
There's a link to a creationist website here with some arguments about "bad design"
Is the Human Body a Bad Design?
A recent article highlights the supposed “flaws” in the design of the human body. But are these really “flaws”?
answersingenesis.org
On back pain, igoring the fall and subsequent genetic issues, a lot of modern back pain is caused by bad posture, lack of regular exercise, prolonged sitting (in our sedenary society), improper lifting techniques, and excess body weight. Go for a walk to your local shopping centre and see how many obese Australian citizens there are today. When I was young most people were fairly slim.
We can't blame God for that.
On your complaint about the neck and the RLN as they like to call it, i lifted this from a Creatinist website -
God’s Design: Strategic Routing of the RLN
Evolutionists cite the recurrent laryngeal nerve as evidence of “poor design.” But the nerve serves an important designed function.
answersingenesis.org
There's an argument here in regard to your objection about backward wiring in the retina, with a brief summary below.
On the pelvis, the author Genesis noted the difficult births that women expeience, quoting it as a part of disobedience by the original Eve. Whether this was the real explanation or whether the author seized was trying to make a theological statement is a moot point.
If it was evolution, then it hasn't done a good job either.
The appendix - The appendix
On Mucous in which originates in the sinues - Mucin in the Mucous | The Institute for Creation Research
The human body is an incredibly complex structure and it can expect to operate for 70 to 100 years in an environment of heat and cold from the tropics to the artic, infrared and ultraviolet radiation, varying weather, in and under the water for limited periods, subject to a lot of mechanical stress, repair itself most of the time, be able to wield tools, drive, sing, play the guitar, perform ballet, run marathons, build houses, and most of all think.
It doesn't do too badly, even if atheists are keen to do away with the God which they're going to meet anyay. As I said in a previous post, the issue of evil and suffering is what you might call a catalyst towards our decisions to choose for God or against Him.
Even the demonic realm is a spritual enzyme if you pardon the experession - it pushes us towards evil choices both individually (eg, Charles Manson, Ivan Milat) and collectively (eg. Hitler's German, Stalin's Russ), without being changed itself.
We move towards being wheat or weeds each day.
I'm also giving up on this thread. I've said enough. I won't change your mind and you most certainly won't change mine.
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Bradskii
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I'll just take this explanation if I may.
So we didn't originally walk upright. And the undoubted problems that we have is because gradually, over evolutionary time, we changed to an upright posture. So it wasn't a design, but a problem caused by evolutionary changes. And yes, evolution just does the best it can with whatever it has. As you said:
That's exactly the point I've been making. The 'either' refers to God. I agree. The other side of the same coin that you have presented is:
If it's God (as opposed to evolution)...He hasn't done a good job either.
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I very much like that analogy (is it a common one going the rounds?)
I just wonder would it also apply successfully to an individual's sense of their place in the world?
A bit a la John Dunne, is the innate feeling of absolute identity as a free standing person an illusion fundamentally and are we all "puddles" on the "tarmac" of society and the universe writ large?
(I was musing on this question a bit earlier and your analogy crossed my mind )
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Hans Blaster
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He died in 2001, but presented the "puddle analogy" for the anthropic principle (itself which is 50 years old) at least as far back as 1988.
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Bradskii
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I guess that up to a point the analogy works for individuals as well. I haven't made the connection before. But I'd suggest that the hole isn't fixed. It changes. And we cannot do anything except be changed by it.
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