Ellen White--Jesus could have failed, lost His "eternal existence"

prodromos said:

Yes. Jesus is both human and divine.

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BobRyan said:

• “His divinity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible.”
• “Deity did not die.”
  "Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God?—No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the Man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood. 19LtMs, Lt 280, 1904, par. 9. 7ABC 446.2,, UL 260.2

Matt 4 Christ was tempted in the wilderness (God cannot be tempted James 1:13

Satan tempts Christ to "rig the trial" by using His God nature to solve problems, and so then to fail as our 1 John 2 "example'. Christ refused to fail.

Satan charged God in Job 1 and 2 of "rigging the case of Job" when God declares Job to be a good example of a born again faithful follower.

See how often that charge gets repeated.

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Even so, every now and then Tall73 says something we can all agree with


true.


true.

ahh yes more "Ellen White says..." topics from Tall73

Indeed you need someone to read context for you quite often

Certainly a few Christians can agree that the cost of our salvation was high. the Son of God becomes Human and dies in our stead as the great Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD 1 John 2:2

Yet as Matt 7 says , the whole world is not going to heaven

we can understand why some think Jesus took a risk, that HE was willing to risk something to save mankind. Others demand that He took no risk at all. "Risked nothing ot gain the world of saved souls" is the gospel some preach.

Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

"emptied Himself" of WHAT?

For "some" all that means nothing, it means God the Son did nothing, He merely showed up in infinite power and wisdom and did the trivial work of following through on His infinite plan. No risk at all.

And "oops" we ourselves have that same attitude in us, we too are not at risk (I suppose that is their thinking)

Phil 2:
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name

"My God My God why have you forsaken Me?" Matt 27:46
"Father if it be possible let this cup pass from Me, nevertheless NOT AS I WILL but THY will be DONE" Matt 26:39-44

38 Then He *said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me.”

Matt 26: shows risk, effort, struggle in the eXTREME​

38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”​

39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”​

40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”​

42 Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” 43 And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.​

44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.​

He goes back and forth with that same request, no answer from heaven. So He stops doing it and goes to meet the mob, exceedingly sorrowful even unto death.

Does not sound like Matthew is trying to convey "NO STRUGGLE" "NO RISK"

I Do not speak MY OWN words. I Speak ONLY the Words of the Father. John 12:49-50

John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Heb 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

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prodromos said:

You were still posting as if the person could be seperate from His natures.

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prodromos said:

You said "Jesus died.

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tall73 said:

@reddogs


Here is the post you replied to, and folks can see you did not respond to the various scriptural arguments, but appealed to real sorrow, etc. which was already stated in the original post.

tall73 said:

Philippians 2:4-8​

4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)​

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He emptied Himself of the dignity that was rightfully His as Creator and King, by taking on the form of a servant, in the likeness of men. He humbled Himself, thinking of others, rather than Himself, the King of the Universe humbling Himself to the point of death on the cross.

Yes, He took on flesh that through death He might defeat the one who held the power of death, to be the propitiation, and so that He might sympathize with those who are tempted:

Hebrews 2:14-18​

14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. 16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. (ESV)​

The Word became Flesh:

John 1:14-18​

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known. (ESV)​

1 John 1:1-3​

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. (ESV)​

Jesus IS that Eternal Life Bob--and yes, He came in the flesh that they might touch Him. But He is still that Eternal Life, and could not, as Ellen White and you claimed, lose His eternal existence.

Now, as to thirsting, Jesus said anyone who believes in Him will never thirst--but you and Ellen White say that might not have been the case, because He could have failed. Who do we believe? You or Scripture?

John 6:35​

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. (ESV)​

Jesus came to earth to destroy the power of the devil:

1 John 3:8​

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (NKJV)​

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And He did that. And He could NOT have failed at doing it. Scripture tells us this:

Isaiah 42:1​

1 “Behold! My Servant​

My Elect One in whom My soul delights!​

I have put My Spirit upon Him;​

He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.​

2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,​

Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.​

3 A bruised reed He will not break,​

And smoking flax He will not quench;​

He will bring forth justice for truth.​

4 He will not fail nor be discouraged,​

Till He has established justice in the earth;​

And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”​

5 Thus says God the LORD,​

Who created the heavens and stretched them out,​

Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,​

Who gives breath to the people on it,​

And spirit to those who walk on it:​

6 “I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness,​

And will hold Your hand;​

I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,​

As a light to the Gentiles,​

7 To open blind eyes,​

To bring out prisoners from the prison,​

Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.​

8 I am the LORD, that is My name;​

And My glory I will not give to another,​

Nor My praise to carved images.​

9 Behold, the former things have come to pass,​

And new things I declare;​

Before they spring forth I tell you of them.” (NKJV)​

It says He will NOT fail Bob. You and Ellen White said He could have.

It says He would Keep Him. You and Ellen White say it could have been otherwise.

You are not going by Scripture.

And could not have done otherwise! It is ludicrous to say that the Scriptures indicate Jesus could lose His eternal existence.

@The Liturgist tried to explain to you that He is the SAME. Here is another text speaking of it:

Hebrews 1:8-12​

8 But to the Son He says:​

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;​

A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.​

9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;​

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You​

With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”​

10 And:​

“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,​

And the heavens are the work of Your hands.​

11 They will perish, but You remain;​

And they will all grow old like a garment;​

12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,​

And they will be changed.​

But You are the same,​

And Your years will not fail.” (NKJV)​

This of course is quoting form the OLD Testament, because it was already foreordained.

Jesus, in His incarnation IS the I AM:

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (ESV)​

In His incarnation He IS the Way the Truth and the Life:

John 14:6​

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (NKJV)​

But you and Ellen White say that the Way the Truth and the Life might have lied, and might die. That the I Am might become the I am not.

That is sick! And it is certainly not Scripture! It is directly opposed to all of Scripture.

God promised before time this eternal life Bob--before the incarnation. And He cannot lie! But you and Ellen White say Jesus could fail, and this would be a lie:

Titus 1:2​

2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began​

Jesus didn't pretend anything. Jesus was tempted. Jesus was sorrowful. Jesus OVERCAME as He was foreordained, promised, foreknown to do. He could not fail, as Isaiah said. He was kept, as Isiah said. God knows the end from the beginning and accomplishes His purpose, as Isaiah said:

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,​

Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose​

And the post you responded to said it was all real pain, sorrow, grief, affliction, etc. That was never in dispute.

And yes Isaiah describes all of it just as it would happen. And NONE of it was in doubt. He chose to undergo that suffering and anguish and temptation, and it was one hundred percent certain since the foundation of the world, as He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.




No, for you to imply that God doesn't know the end from the beginning, that there was a risk of the Creator God failing in His plan to overcome the creature satan is from another origin than God because it contradicts Scripture. satan had zero percent chance of winning.



Reddogs, the very text you picked shows this as so certain it is described as already happening.




He was silent before Pilate because He knew that Pilate could do nothing if the Father had not determined it.



The circumstances of His tomb were certain.

He is made a sin offering but will prolong His days.

HE SHALL bear their iniquities! No chance of failure.


And all of this was certain from the foundation of the earth.

Now @SabbathBlessings indicated that I had taken Ellen White out of context. But in fact, I did not. And she never actually said anything from the context to clarify. This statement in Desire of Ages is particularly a problem because of the framing of the context for her notion that Jesus risked failure and eternal loss.

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Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 131.2}​

​

Now I am sure @The Liturgist will remind us we can't reduce God, Who inhabits eternity per Isaiah, Who knows the end from the beginning, Who accomplishes His purpose in His perception of time to our own. But I am approaching Ellen White's statement as it reads.

And what she says is

Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss.​

​

That plan was founded long before the moment of the incarnation. But at the moment before the incarnation, when He was leaving all that for us, was there any doubt on the part of the Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit? NO! It was impossible for anything to happen but that which was not already known, but foreordained.

Now in His incarnation Jesus did truly suffer, was tempted, was sorrowful. But the reason that He cried out to the One who could save Him from death is because He already knew what would happen from these Scriptures!

And we even know the thoughts of Jesus, as recorded by David the prophet:

Acts 2:24-28​

24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25 For David says concerning him,​

“‘I saw the Lord always before me,​

for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;​

26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;​

my flesh also will dwell in hope.​

27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,​

or let your Holy One see corruption.​

28 You have made known to me the paths of life;​

you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’ (ESV)​

​

There was sorrow, and temptation. But there was no doubt because God does not lie!

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reddogs said:

But, He could have failed or there was no temptation. Just a show where everyone played like if their was a struggle, when there was not. You know better than that Tall.

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tall73 said:

If your "truth" is that God could fail, that the many Scriptures which say what Jesus would do could fail, and that God could lie when He promised eternal life, then we all know it is not truth.

Jesus IS the Way the Truth and the Life, and could never be otherwise.

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reddogs said:

Its good to look into these things, Christ and His truth moves us to search these deep things of God. It is a good thing for us to examine, but we have to remember (and I point at myself also in the 'we')... Matthew 10:16

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BobRyan said:

Christ had two natures the divine nature could not die.

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The Liturgist said:

That does not refute any argument made by @tall73 nor does it address the logical fallacies you employed contra his position.

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tall73 said:

It is good to examine. And Jesus is our example, as well as our Savior. But He could never be an example of Failure! And Isaiah assures us the Servant will not fail until He accomplished the plan.

Now if you are going to examine you have to adress the various texts presented.

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reddogs said:

I have given what is from Gods Word, I would not call that 'logical fallacies' at any level. Now if one is giving Catechisms of tradition, and Dogmas of man, to say nothing of the Proclamations of the Magistrate....

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reddogs said:

But, He could have failed or there was no temptation. Just a show where everyone played like if their was a struggle, when there was not. You know better than that Tall.

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The Liturgist said:

This argument contains four logical fallacies, or three and a half, depending on how we slice the problematic phrase “You know better than that, which we will of course begin with, for that leapt from the page, so to speak, in catching my attention, since not only is this phrase an ad hominem but also is an “appeal to shame” - it implies intellectual dishonesty on the part of your interlocutor and attacks them personally without engaging in the content of their argument and is thus a kind of rhetorical goading which is abrasive and uncharitable.

Moving on from that, your argument is also a False Dilemma (“He could have failed or there was no temptation”) which is a close relative of the False Dichotomy we frequently see wherein everything is reduced to Roman Catholic / Papal vs. Biblical Sabbatarian, and of Catholic vs. Protestant with for example the related discussion that everyone who worships on Sunday is doing so because of the Pope and that there are only Roman Catholics or Protestants, without acknowledging the historical reality of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian chruches that were never under the control of Rome.

Finally insofar as your argument ignores and incorrectly summarizes the views expressed by @tall73 it is a Strawman.

Once again I strongly advise that you study critical thinking and the major logical fallacies and work to avoid them in your posts. It is not the case that the belief expressed in a fallacious argument is inherently wrong (to argue that is actually another fallacy, a meta-fallacious argument often whimsically called “The Fallacy Fallacy”, but it is the case that arguments that are fallacious are unreasonable and cannot be evaluated on their own terms - whatever claims they make cannot be productively engaged with as long as they are articulated in a manner which is unreasonable.

As Christians, since Christ our True God is according to the Gospel of St. John, the Truth and the Logos (a word which means Word, Logic and Reasonable; the Greek word for illogical or unreasonable peoople is Alogoi), we owe it to Christ our God in thanksgiving for His salvific work on the Precious and Life Giving Cross to use Logic and Truth and what is more, since God is Love, to be Loving, and to refrain from uncharitable ad hominem arguments.

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The Liturgist said:

You quoted Matthew 10:16 out of context in a blanket attempt to dismiss the arguments made by @tall73, and incorrect use of a verse of Scripture can be logically fallacious (specifically that use of it was a Red Herring or Non Sequitur fallacy, which is a fallacy of formal logic since it does not function syntactically as implied.

Additionally, mentioning the Magistrate and the “Catechisms of Tradition” is also a red herring and also obvious goading since as you know I’m not a member of the Roman Catholic Church - that being the second time today i’ve had to point that out to you (fun fact: the Eastern Orthodox Church has never published an official Catechism, although some individual bishops did, but we have nothing analogous Luther’s Small Catechism, which popularized the modern format, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in part because we cannot come to a consensus that we should do that, since it seems to be in imitation of the Western church which is something many prefer to avoid).

The logical fallacies I was referring to were in your previous post:



And I addressed the fallacious nature of that post, the four logical fallacies it contains, in this post, in which I did quote Scripture, unlike in the post in question (you would have done better to quote Scripture even if you had quoted it out of context because out of context verses are usually merely fallacious in the sense of being non sequiturs, which does not mean that i endorse quoting Scripture out of context, but the more one can avoid fallacies, the better:




Essentially all of the fallacies come down to either not responding to the argument but rather to who made it, or who did not make it, or why they made it, or attempting to dismiss it on the basis of some contradiction, in the case of the false dilemma error, or making remarks which are not connected to the argument. The problem with such fallacies is that they are unreasonable and Christ is reason, and once we start entertaining unreasonable arguments we can very easily be deceived by sophistry, by beautiful verbage which suggests truth but does not provide an argument that can be examined for its truthfulness. One very frequently encounters fallacies being made by politicians of all stripes and an over-reliance upon them can be a sign of dishonesty or intellectual dysfunction. For example politicians love to make appeals to shame, for example, “Come on, man” or “I think you know better” or “Who are you trying to kid?” which are abrasive statements which actually do not contain any useful information.

I would also note that interpretations of Scripture that interpret the words of God and His Apostles under the assumption they are employing an argument which could be logically fallacious should be dismissed. For example, when St. Paul declares “All Cretans are liars”, in refrence to the Epimenides Paradox, if we were to interpret him as specifically discounting the truthfulness of statements made by someone from Crete, as opposed to engaging in a general view with human sin and pointing out how dishonesty leads to paradoxes, that puts a very uncharitable ethnically prejudiced logical fallacy in the mouth of an Apostle who, read in context, was clearly not attacking the people of Crete, for it was the same Apostle who elsewhere wrote “there is neither Jew nor Greek” … “for all are one in Christ Jesus” which would include Cretans converted to Christianity for which purpose he was sending Saint Titus the Apostle to that island.

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