• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Anyone have good arguments against Calvinism.

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
40,513
7,460
On the bus to Heaven
✟343,566.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That is a straw man. What works do Calvinists do, or what are they trained to do? Anything ?
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

What works do you do? Those prepared before hand or those that you think you should do?!
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
15,011
6,665
70
Pennsylvania
✟1,068,842.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Ok, but what do they do? They have rejected the Lord’s supper as mere symbolism. They have rejected apostolic authority in favor of a Westminster confession, of which I have seen very few Calvinists even read, so what exactly is it that they do?
The fact very few of them read WCF should tell you something. You apparently don't realize they have a whole different worldview from you. They don't need WCF nor Catechism nor anything but Scripture. I'm pretty sure you've heard of the five solas.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,698
2,716
✟1,169,542.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Taking a step back from that way of thinking and am looking for different ways of looking at it.
If you are asking for arguments, I think you should look into the Early Church writings before Augustine. The Calvinistic ideas seem to first appear with Augustine.

Christ love!
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
15,011
6,665
70
Pennsylvania
✟1,068,842.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
If you are asking for arguments, I think you should look into the Early Church writings before Augustine. The Calvinistic ideas seem to first appear with Augustine.

Christ love!
And with Peter, Paul and Mary.


"...God’s elect ....who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood..."

"...while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"

"And Mary said, 'Behold, the Lord’s maidservant. May it happen to me according to your word'.”
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hentenza
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,698
2,716
✟1,169,542.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
And with Peter, Paul and Mary.


"...God’s elect ....who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood..."

"...while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"

"And Mary said, 'Behold, the Lord’s maidservant. May it happen to me according to your word'.”
Only if those passages are read through a Calvinistic lens. Quoting Bible passages alone does not establish the Calvinistic doctrines.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
15,011
6,665
70
Pennsylvania
✟1,068,842.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Only if those passages are read through a Calvinistic lens. Quoting Bible passages alone does not establish the Calvinistic doctrines.
Or if read in light of the rest of God's word. I did not have a "Calvinistic lens" when I found what some have said was Calvinism.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,698
2,716
✟1,169,542.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Or if read in light of the rest of God's word. I did not have a "Calvinistic lens" when I found what some have said was Calvinism.
Of course it's possible to arrive at the "Calvinistic" understanding from just studying Scripture. I wouldn't say anything else. However, most Christians would say they read in the light of the rest of Scripture and don't come to your conclusion.

And you don't seem to have thoroughly worked through John 3:16-17 ...
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: johansen
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
31,942
14,446
74
✟466,538.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Of course it's possible to arrive at the "Calvinistic" understanding from just studying Scripture. I wouldn't say anything else. However, most Christians would say they read in the light of the rest of Scripture and don't come to your conclusion.

And you don't seem to have thoroughly worked through John 3:16-17 ...
Indeed, most Christians who do read Scripture (and I daresay the vast majority of professing Christians do not) don't come to your conclusion either. Most Christians seem to be willing to take a fuzzy middle ground on most issues.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,698
2,716
✟1,169,542.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Indeed, most Christians who do read Scripture (and I daresay the vast majority of professing Christians do not) don't come to your conclusion either. Most Christians seem to be willing to take a fuzzy middle ground on most issues.
But they do in the most central issue: whom Jesus died for. Most come to the conclusion that Jesus atoned for everyone's sins.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
31,942
14,446
74
✟466,538.00
Faith
Non-Denom
But they do in the most central issue: whom Jesus died for. Most come to the conclusion that Jesus atoned for everyone's sins.
However, if asked about the meaning of a universal atonement, most professing Christians back off and say that it does not mean salvation for each and every person. Then, when asked as to how one is saved, they respond with a hodgepodge of methods, most of which focus on some form of religious efforts.

Then, when pressed concerning Biblical texts which stipulate precisely which efforts are required by God they usually toss in the Ten Commandments, even though they have little to no idea as to what these commandments require.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hentenza
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
15,011
6,665
70
Pennsylvania
✟1,068,842.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Of course it's possible to arrive at the "Calvinistic" understanding from just studying Scripture. I wouldn't say anything else. However, most Christians would say they read in the light of the rest of Scripture and don't come to your conclusion.

And you don't seem to have thoroughly worked through John 3:16-17 ...
Would you like to do that with me? Don't forget vs 18, and the rest of John 3, and the rest of John's gospel, and the rest of his writings, and the rest of scripture.

What most Christians arrive at is biased by how they think—their worldview—their 'lens'—just as mine was, until after many years of agony, prayer, study and logic that I couldn't deny, I gave up on my insistence on self-determinism, aka self-actualization, and chose the only thing that finally made sense.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
8,115
2,793
Perth
✟249,742.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Would you like to do that with me? Don't forget vs 18, and the rest of John 3, and the rest of John's gospel, and the rest of his writings, and the rest of scripture.

What most Christians arrive at is biased by how they think—their worldview—their 'lens'—just as mine was, until after many years of agony, prayer, study and logic that I couldn't deny, I gave up on my insistence on self-determinism, aka self-actualization, and chose the only thing that finally made sense.
I answer that invitation by affirming that the fullness of John 3 - including verse 18, the wider discourse with Nicodemus, the later Johannine writings, and the whole canon - must be read within the Church’s living Tradition, because Christ entrusted both Scripture and its authentic interpretation to the apostolic community (John 20:21–23; Dei Verbum 10). The Church therefore holds that salvation is neither a purely human self‑construction nor a unilateral divine determination, but a synergy of grace and freedom: God truly offers saving grace to all (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9), and yet He never forces the human will, which retains the real capacity to accept or resist that grace (CCC 1730–1732). John’s Gospel repeatedly shows this dynamic - light offered, but not imposed; truth revealed, yet capable of being rejected (John 3:19–21; 5:40).

From that dogmatic standpoint, the “lens” that finally makes sense is not the abandonment of human freedom but the recognition that grace precedes, accompanies, and empowers every good act without destroying the dignity of the will. Catholic teaching rejects both self‑determinism and deterministic predestination: we neither save ourselves nor are we saved apart from our cooperation. What you describe - years of struggle, prayer, study, and the surrender of a self‑constructed worldview - mirrors the Church’s own insistence that authentic understanding arises when reason, Scripture, and grace converge within the faith handed down from the apostles. In that light, the Catholic answer is simply that the truth of John’s Gospel is best grasped not by choosing between human freedom and divine initiative, but by embracing the mystery of both working together in the economy of salvation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: iHarken
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Unsupported Claims? Smash'em!!!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
27,133
12,544
Space Mountain!
✟1,535,288.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Taking a step back from that way of thinking and am looking for different ways of looking at it.

A valid argument against Calvinism is: Like so many firm denominational positions out there, Calvin's theological viewpoint is time and culture bound, and like so many other denominational positions, he over states his case at various points within his overall theology.

However, to Calvin's partial credit, he at least occasionally cites his own awareness that he has epistemic limitations and that what he is offering as 'doctrine' is speculative.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: iHarken
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
31,942
14,446
74
✟466,538.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I answer that invitation by affirming that the fullness of John 3 - including verse 18, the wider discourse with Nicodemus, the later Johannine writings, and the whole canon - must be read within the Church’s living Tradition, because Christ entrusted both Scripture and its authentic interpretation to the apostolic community (John 20:21–23; Dei Verbum 10). The Church therefore holds that salvation is neither a purely human self‑construction nor a unilateral divine determination, but a synergy of grace and freedom: God truly offers saving grace to all (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9), and yet He never forces the human will, which retains the real capacity to accept or resist that grace (CCC 1730–1732). John’s Gospel repeatedly shows this dynamic - light offered, but not imposed; truth revealed, yet capable of being rejected (John 3:19–21; 5:40).

From that dogmatic standpoint, the “lens” that finally makes sense is not the abandonment of human freedom but the recognition that grace precedes, accompanies, and empowers every good act without destroying the dignity of the will. Catholic teaching rejects both self‑determinism and deterministic predestination: we neither save ourselves nor are we saved apart from our cooperation. What you describe - years of struggle, prayer, study, and the surrender of a self‑constructed worldview - mirrors the Church’s own insistence that authentic understanding arises when reason, Scripture, and grace converge within the faith handed down from the apostles. In that light, the Catholic answer is simply that the truth of John’s Gospel is best grasped not by choosing between human freedom and divine initiative, but by embracing the mystery of both working together in the economy of salvation.
I love the concept of "Living Tradition". If ever there was an oxymoron this is it.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
8,115
2,793
Perth
✟249,742.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I love the concept of "Living Tradition". If ever there was an oxymoron this is it.
The phrase only looks like an oxymoron if “Tradition” is imagined as a pile of old ideas frozen in amber. But in Catholic theology, Sacred Tradition is the ongoing transmission of the apostolic faith under the guidance of the Holy Spirit—not new doctrines, not shifting dogma, but the living handing‑on of what Christ entrusted to the apostles. The content is fixed; the Church’s understanding and articulation of that content grows as she continues to preach, worship, and discern. In that sense, “living” doesn’t mean “changing the deposit,” but “the Church herself living and breathing the same faith the apostles received.”

From that perspective, “Living Tradition” is no more an oxymoron than “living language.” English doesn’t change its identity every time someone speaks it; it remains recognisably English even as it is actively used. Likewise, the Church doesn’t treat Tradition as a museum piece but as something she practices—in liturgy, in teaching, in the lived faith of the people of God. The stability of the content and the vitality of its transmission are precisely what keep the faith both faithful to Christ and capable of being understood in every age.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
5,744
6,807
New Jersey
✟452,528.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I love the concept of "Living Tradition". If ever there was an oxymoron this is it.

I love the concept too, genuinely, without any irony. Christians of past generations have handed to us the accumulation of their experiences of God and their understanding of those experiences. We get to absorb all that, add our own voices, and hand it on to the next generation.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
31,942
14,446
74
✟466,538.00
Faith
Non-Denom
The phrase only looks like an oxymoron if “Tradition” is imagined as a pile of old ideas frozen in amber. But in Catholic theology, Sacred Tradition is the ongoing transmission of the apostolic faith under the guidance of the Holy Spirit—not new doctrines, not shifting dogma, but the living handing‑on of what Christ entrusted to the apostles. The content is fixed; the Church’s understanding and articulation of that content grows as she continues to preach, worship, and discern. In that sense, “living” doesn’t mean “changing the deposit,” but “the Church herself living and breathing the same faith the apostles received.”

From that perspective, “Living Tradition” is no more an oxymoron than “living language.” English doesn’t change its identity every time someone speaks it; it remains recognisably English even as it is actively used. Likewise, the Church doesn’t treat Tradition as a museum piece but as something she practices—in liturgy, in teaching, in the lived faith of the people of God. The stability of the content and the vitality of its transmission are precisely what keep the faith both faithful to Christ and capable of being understood in every age.

tradition​

noun

1
a
: an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (such as a religious practice or a social custom)
b
: a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable
… the bulk of traditions attributed to the Prophet …—J. L. Esposito


2
: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction

3
: cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions

4
: characteristic manner, method, or style
in the best liberal tradition
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
31,942
14,446
74
✟466,538.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I love the concept too, genuinely, without any irony. Christians of past generations have handed to us the accumulation of their experiences of God and their understanding of those experiences. We get to absorb all that, add our own voices, and hand it on to the next generation.
Whatever alterations people make to tradition, is not tradition, but merely changes. One can create beliefs and practices of one's own and hope that succeeding generations will follow them and thus invent new traditions for those generations, but one cannot modify earlier tradition in any form and still assert that it is the same tradition that was passed along.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
14,618
6,305
Minnesota
✟390,135.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Whatever alterations people make to tradition, is not tradition, but merely changes. One can create beliefs and practices of one's own and hope that succeeding generations will follow them and thus invent new traditions for those generations, but one cannot modify earlier tradition in any form and still assert that it is the same tradition that was passed along.
It is important to understand the difference between mere traditions which you and I and others and various religions (including Catholics have) and what Catholics call Sacred Tradition. In Catholic terms, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture transmit the Word of God. Sometimes we refer to "Tradition" with a capital "T," that's the same as Sacred Tradition. Let's try not to confuse the two in conversation. Sacred Tradition has been handed down from the Apostles. Sacred Tradition does not change. If you would, go back and carefully read what @Xeno.of.athens said in #355 in regard to Sacred Tradtion. Our understanding of Sacred Tradition deepens and that understanding has accumulated and also has been handed down from the Doctors of the Church and our Church fathers and others over the centuries.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
31,942
14,446
74
✟466,538.00
Faith
Non-Denom
It is important to understand the difference between mere traditions which you and I and others and various religions (including Catholics have) and what Catholics call Sacred Tradition. In Catholic terms, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture transmit the Word of God. Sometimes we refer to "Tradition" with a capital "T," that's the same as Sacred Tradition. Let's try not to confuse the two in conversation. Sacred Tradition has been handed down from the Apostles. Sacred Tradition does not change. If you would, go back and carefully read what @Xeno.of.athens said in #355 in regard to Sacred Tradtion. Our understanding of Sacred Tradition deepens and that understanding has accumulated and also has been handed down from the Doctors of the Church and our Church fathers and others over the centuries.
Xeno conflates Living Tradition with Sacred Tradition. Anyone can take any tradition, sacred or otherwise, and proceed to modify it at will and declare it to be part and parcel of their living tradition, without needing to defend the changes. We certainly see that process at work at this moment within American politics.
 
Upvote 0