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The First Resurrection

rockytopva

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I was brought up Charles Stanley type Baptist and Pentecostal Holiness. They both believed in a rapture. Whatever you may call it... I will take the first resurrection thank you!

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 2:6
 

RandyPNW

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I was brought up Charles Stanley type Baptist and Pentecostal Holiness. They both believed in a rapture. Whatever you may call it... I will take the first resurrection thank you!

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 2:6
As good as these men and ministries are, they were raised up by others who they respected and in their times were inundated with a particular eschatology, wrong or right. We all are exposed to various theologies at vulnerable times, and need to check out what others feed us, no matter how good they are otherwise.
 
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1Tonne

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Many believe in a rapture of all believers just before the tribulation, but Jesus himself and the disciples did not believe in such a rapture. He believed that we are raised on the last day. In fact, He stresses it by saying it 6 times and Martha even says it once.
The only place where people are raised earlier than the last day is in Revelation 20:4-6. These are those who are martyred for their faith. No other believer is raised at that time. They are raised and reign with Christ for 1000 years. Then Satan is set free for a short time, then the last day will come when all are raised, believer and non-believer to go to the Great White Throne.
 
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RandyPNW

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Many believe in a rapture of all believers just before the tribulation, but Jesus himself and the disciples did not believe in such a rapture. He believed that we are raised on the last day. In fact, He stresses it by saying it 6 times and Martha even says it once.
The only place where people are raised earlier than the last day is in Revelation 20:4-6. These are those who are martyred for their faith. No other believer is raised at that time. They are raised and reign with Christ for 1000 years. Then Satan is set free for a short time, then the last day will come when all are raised, believer and non-believer to go to the Great White Throne.
I agree that Jesus indicated on several occasion that he is returning on the Last Day. I don't agree that Rev 20.4-6 indicates only martyrs are delivered at a different time. Paul indicated that the dead are raised at the same time the living are glorified--it is all a single event associated with the 2nd Coming on the Last Day. The age is defined as the time the Jewish People remain under judgment as a nation. That will end when Christ returns, with His mercy aimed at the Jewish People just prior to that event.

The "first resurrection" includes the resurrection of the martyrs of Antichrist because that is the main story about the last 3.5 years plus in the book of Revelation. But the "first resurrection" is never said to include only those, nor does it indicate that the rest of the dead in Christ are exempted from that event.
 
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rockytopva

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I consider myself Pentecostal Holiness / Baptist. In which there is a great many in my parts. I thought that every Christian believed in the rapture before posting on web sites. I would say that most Christians don't take much thought on the hereafter. The average Christian's church experience...

Hatched - Some were baptized infants
Latched - When they marry
Dispatched - Whey they leave this earth

Considering it good to get in a "Hail Mary!" or a last minute prayer before they go! I consider it a good thing to anticipate some kind of meeting with God as the effects are good...

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3:2-3
 
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1Tonne

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Paul indicated that the dead are raised at the same time the living are glorified--it is all a single event associated with the 2nd Coming on the Last Day.
You are referring to 1 Thes 4:13-18.
Read it carefully knowing that in Revelation 20:4-6 it says that only the dead martyrs are raised first. These people are known as the "Dead in Christ" or "those who sleep in Him". No other person is raised.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thes 4:13-18 Explained
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." Verse 13-14

Verses 13 and 14 say that people should not grieve for the dead believers, and that the dead believers will be raised and return with Him. The wording at the end of verse 14 says that those who return with Him are the ones that fell asleep in Christ. This would be the martyrs as mentioned in Revelation 20:4. If this is the martyrs, then they come and reign for 1000 years with Christ. This is not the last day.

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep." Verses 15
Then, verse 15 is simply saying that we who are alive right now should not expect to be raised until the martyrs have been raised first. We will not proceed them. The dead in Christ who are the martyrs are raised first, and reign with Christ for 1000 years, then on the last day, we who are left alive at that time will be raised also. This final raising of people would be all who are alive. Both believer and non-believer as well as those who are alive and those who are in the grave.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." Verse 16
This is going into more detail about when Jesus returns with the martyrs. There will be a shout from an archangel and a trumpet sound. And the martyrs will be raised in the first resurrection.

"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." Verse 17
This is the last day. We who are here on the very last day will be raised up in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor 15:51-52) to go to judgment. Believers will then be with the Lord forever, while others will be condemned.

If Revelation 20:4-6 says that it is only the Martyrs who are raised and return with Christ and no other believer, but our own viewpoint contradicts this, then it is not scripture that has the issue. It would be our faulty eschatology.
So, once again, try reading 1 Thes 4:15-18 with the view that those who return are the martyrs. The rest of us are raised on the last day just as Jesus said 6 times.
 
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rockytopva

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I would call the first resurrection as pre-trib...

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24

Noting... "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." If we had anything else it would be rather well announced. It would be nice to have had something like....

2053 AD - PreTrib Rapture
2060 AD - Return with Christ

But it wasn't God's intentions of us being that good. If I had to go with date picking I would call Isaac Newton as the closest...

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. -Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming may be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ's coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However Isaac Newton notes...

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton
 
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rockytopva

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Hoping always to maintain the possibilities of being wrong here.... "It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton
 
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Douggg

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The first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 is a term that is relevant to the thousand years. And applies to the martyred great tribulation saints.

The second resurrection relevant to the thousand years will be for the Great White Throne judgment. - which the second death will occur for whosever is not found written in the book of life, Revelation 20:15.
 
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1Tonne

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The first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 is a term that is relevant to the thousand years. And applies to the martyred great tribulation saints.

The second resurrection relevant to the thousand years will be for the Great White Throne judgment. - which the second death will occur for whosever is not found written in the book of life, Revelation 20:15.
Correct. So, Jesus returns with His martyred saints. Then they reign for 1000 years (Rev 20:4-6). After this, Satan is let free for a little while and then, at the end of time, on the last day. those who a left alive will be raptured and those who are in the grave will be resurrected (this is the second resurrection), all to go to the Great White Throne. Whoever's name is found in the book of life will have everlasting life and those whose name is not there will not have everlasting life.
 
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Douggg

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So, Jesus returns with His martyred saints.
Jesus returns with His bride. Whether the souls of the martyred great tribulation saints accompany them or are brought separately is not known.

The resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians 4:14-18 and 1Thessalonians5:9-11 will happen before God's wrath begins - 1Thessalonians 5::9-11.

birder of Christ.png
 
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WilliamLhk

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I was brought up Charles Stanley type Baptist and Pentecostal Holiness. They both believed in a rapture. Whatever you may call it... I will take the first resurrection thank you!

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 2:6
A common misunderstanding of this verse, which has led to much confusion.

"the first/protos resurrection": πρῶτος :
Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. first in time or place
    1. in any succession of things or persons
  2. first in rank
    1. influence, honour
    2. chief
    3. principal
  3. first, at the first
In the context here, and the Scriptures as a whole it means "first in rank." That is, everyone risen from the dead during Christs' return to begin the Millennial Age.

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His Parousia. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. ...
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
52. The Parousia of the Son of Man
Reviews the use of the term parousia by Jesus, Paul, and Peter, and what is thereby revealed about the sequence of End Time events. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/
 
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1Tonne

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1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His Parousia. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. ...
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
So, Christ being the first fruits was raised to life first. Then at the first resurrection (Rev 20:4-6) we have the martyrs who are raised and come and reign with Him for 1000 years. Then we have at the last trumpet, the end which is the last day where everyone will be raised and judged.
 
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RandyPNW

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You are referring to 1 Thes 4:13-18.
Read it carefully knowing that in Revelation 20:4-6 it says that only the dead martyrs are raised first. These people are known as the "Dead in Christ" or "those who sleep in Him". No other person is raised.
I've read the passage in Rev 20, and you are using, I think, an argument from silence. You're right that no other group is mentioned. But a broader, Bible-wide context, indicates the resurrection of the saints, generally speaking, speaks of a single resurrection of all the saints at Christ's Coming. That is a reference to the saints of the present age--the saints of the Millennial Age would be in another group altogether following the 2nd Coming.

Rev 20.4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded...

This suggests to me that those who had been "given authority to judge" is a much broader group than just the souls of those who had been beheaded. And I would further argue that we are just being given the notable groups constituting this First Resurrection, and not the complete list.
 
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1Tonne

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I've read the passage in Rev 20, and you are using, I think, an argument from silence. You're right that no other group is mentioned. But a broader, Bible-wide context, indicates the resurrection of the saints, generally speaking, speaks of a single resurrection of all the saints at Christ's Coming. That is a reference to the saints of the present age--the saints of the Millennial Age would be in another group altogether following the 2nd Coming.
I agree that we should interpret Scripture in light of Scripture. However, I don't think Revelation 20 should be overridden by assumptions from other passages.
In Revelation 20:4–6, John specifically identifies those who take part in the first resurrection. He mentions those who were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus, who had not worshipped the beast or received his mark. He says, "They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
The passage then says, "The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." If the first resurrection includes all believers, why does John go to the trouble of describing only this specific group? He never says, "and all other believers." Given that Revelation often identifies specific groups, I think we should be careful not to add people whom the text itself doesn't mention.
I don't think that's an argument from silence. It's simply allowing the passage to define the participants in the first resurrection rather than assuming a broader group must be included.
I could say that you are making an argument from silence. You are saying that just because they are not mentioned, they are not included.

If another passage clearly said that all believers are raised before the Millennium, then I'd want to reconcile that with Revelation 20. But I don't think we should read that conclusion into Revelation 20 when John himself doesn't state it.
So, which passage explicitly says that every believer from every age participates in the first resurrection of Revelation 20?

Rev 20.4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded...

This suggests to me that those who had been "given authority to judge" is a much broader group than just the souls of those who had been beheaded. And I would further argue that we are just being given the notable groups constituting this First Resurrection, and not the complete list.
I think the text gives us another possibility as to who these judges are that fits the wording well.
Revelation 20:4 begins by saying, "I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them." The only group I can think of that Jesus explicitly promised would sit on thrones and judge is the apostles.
In Matthew 19:28, Jesus tells the twelve: "You who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." That language is remarkably similar to Revelation 20:4.

I'm not aware of any passage that explicitly says another specific group will be seated on thrones and be given authority to judge in that way. (1 Corinthians 6 says that the saints will judge the world and angels, but it doesn't describe them sitting on thrones or connect that judgment to the first resurrection in Revelation 20.)

So, when I read Revelation 20:4, it seems quite natural that John first sees the apostles on thrones exercising the authority Jesus promised them. He then says, "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded...", identifying another group that shares in Christ's reign.

My point isn't that this is the only possible interpretation, but that the text doesn't say the first group is "all believers." That conclusion has to be imported into the passage. Since Jesus had already identified a specific group who would sit on thrones and judge, I think that is the more natural place to begin.
 
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RandyPNW

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I agree that we should interpret Scripture in light of Scripture. However, I don't think Revelation 20 should be overridden by assumptions from other passages.
In Revelation 20:4–6, John specifically identifies those who take part in the first resurrection. He mentions those who were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus, who had not worshipped the beast or received his mark. He says, "They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
The passage then says, "The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." If the first resurrection includes all believers, why does John go to the trouble of describing only this specific group? He never says, "and all other believers." Given that Revelation often identifies specific groups, I think we should be careful not to add people whom the text itself doesn't mention.
I don't think that's an argument from silence. It's simply allowing the passage to define the participants in the first resurrection rather than assuming a broader group must be included.
I could say that you are making an argument from silence. You are saying that just because they are not mentioned, they are not included.

If another passage clearly said that all believers are raised before the Millennium, then I'd want to reconcile that with Revelation 20. But I don't think we should read that conclusion into Revelation 20 when John himself doesn't state it.
So, which passage explicitly says that every believer from every age participates in the first resurrection of Revelation 20?


I think the text gives us another possibility as to who these judges are that fits the wording well.
Revelation 20:4 begins by saying, "I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them." The only group I can think of that Jesus explicitly promised would sit on thrones and judge is the apostles.
In Matthew 19:28, Jesus tells the twelve: "You who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." That language is remarkably similar to Revelation 20:4.

I'm not aware of any passage that explicitly says another specific group will be seated on thrones and be given authority to judge in that way. (1 Corinthians 6 says that the saints will judge the world and angels, but it doesn't describe them sitting on thrones or connect that judgment to the first resurrection in Revelation 20.)

So, when I read Revelation 20:4, it seems quite natural that John first sees the apostles on thrones exercising the authority Jesus promised them. He then says, "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded...", identifying another group that shares in Christ's reign.

My point isn't that this is the only possible interpretation, but that the text doesn't say the first group is "all believers." That conclusion has to be imported into the passage. Since Jesus had already identified a specific group who would sit on thrones and judge, I think that is the more natural place to begin.
1st you say that we shouldn't look at the broader context in the Bible to explain Rev 20, and then you draw upon passages outside of Rev 20 to determine who sit on thrones? This suggests that you agree with me that we can in fact draw upon a wider context to explain Rev 20?

That being said I agree with you that determining the meaning of a passage like Rev 20 should focus most of all upon that very context itself, and not conflate the meaning with other passages. When it comes to determining who it is, biblically, who will rule on thrones, one cannot just depend upon a passage in which Jesus identifies one group as ruling in the future. We can look in the book of Revelation itself to determine that far more than the Apostles will rule and judge.

Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

Christians in the book of Revelation stand "before the throne of God" and receive from His power to judge. That is, they are able to sit on thrones to judge just as Jesus himself had the authority to judge. This group participates in the 1st Resurrection, and there is no reason to conclude that only the martyrs of the Beast will rise on that day.

The martyrs of the Beast are mentioned because that is the narrative in this part of the book of Revelation. It has been discussing the plight of the saints during the reign of Antichrist. And so, the martyrs are specifically mentioned as triumphing over the Beast in this resurrection. It is not, I think, an attempt to say that they alone will be resurrected at Christ's Coming, but rather, an emphasis that they will be included in this glorious event.

Equally, the emphasis is on those Christians who will bring judgment upon the Antichrist for having attacked God's innocent people. They are given thrones to pass judgment on both the Antichrist and the evil angels who have persecuted God's People. It is the triumphant end of the story without any attempt to limit who will participate in the First Resurrection. My opinion only...

Please note that although it is Christ alone who obtains glory for accomplishing this great victory, it is the saints who are enabled by Christ to participate in this victory over the Evil One. The saints follow Christ as he marches in victory and sit on thrones as he sits on his throne. His is the glory, but we are able to stand before the throne and receive authority from him, participating in his victory.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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Hoping always to maintain the possibilities of being wrong here.... "It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton
Personally, I don't think it can be made any more clear than that Christ already came as a thief.
The first time Christ came to bring life. John 10:10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it in all its fullness.
But this also tells us what He's going to do when He returns as a thief. Steal, kill and destroy.
He tells us explicitly who He was going to kill, what He was going to take from them and what of theirs He was going to destroy when He came?
Luke 20:16
He will come and kill those tenants(the chief priest and Pharisees Matt 21:45) and give the vineyard to others.” And when the people heard this, they said, “May such a thing never happen!”
Or as Matthew puts it: Matthew 21:43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit(the church).
Then in Matt 22, He tells us what of theirs He's going to destroy. 7The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.
 
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WilliamLhk

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So, Christ being the first fruits was raised to life first. Then at the first resurrection (Rev 20:4-6) we have the martyrs who are raised and come and reign with Him for 1000 years. Then we have at the last trumpet, the end which is the last day where everyone will be raised and judged.
Saying this means you have completely missed out on the teaching of 1 Cor. 15:20-55.

And the doctrine of the Parousia.

And the doctrine of the Bridegroom returning to take His bride to His Father's house.
 
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1Tonne

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And so, the martyrs are specifically mentioned as triumphing over the Beast in this resurrection. It is not, I think, an attempt to say that they alone will be resurrected at Christ's Coming
But that is exactly what Revelation 20 says. John specifically identifies those who take part in the first resurrection:
"I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his mark..."
He then says, "They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
Immediately after that, John adds:
"The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished."
The text never says, "and all other believers were raised also." If that were John's intention, it would have been very easy for him to say so. Instead, he carefully describes a specific group and then contrasts them with "the rest of the dead."

That doesn't prove my interpretation beyond all doubt, but I do think it means we should be cautious about expanding the first resurrection beyond the group John actually identifies. Otherwise, we're reading something into the passage that isn't stated.

One question I've never found a satisfactory answer to is this: If every believer is raised at the beginning of the Millennium and reigns with Christ, who are the people being ruled over? Revelation repeatedly speaks of Christ and His saints reigning over the nations. If all believers are rulers, who are the subjects that make up those nations?
Saying this means you have completely missed out on the teaching of 1 Cor. 15:20-55.
I don't think I've missed 1 Corinthians 15 at all. Paul says that Christ is raised first, then "those who are Christ's at His coming," and finally comes the end (vv. 23–24). My understanding is that Revelation 20 explains who those are. We know that Christ was raised fist at his resurection. Then John identifies the participants in the first resurrection (at His return) as those who were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and who refused to worship the beast. He never expands that group to include all believers. So, Christ was raised first from death to life, then those at His coming will be those who reign with Him for 1000 years. In Rev 20:4 it says that these are martyred people. Then the remaining people who are raised are at the end of time on the last day. Rev 20:5 says that these people are not raised until the end. They are the final fruits who are delivered to God.

So, I see no contradiction between the two passages. Paul gives the sequence, Christ first, then those who are His at His coming, then the end Kingdom. Revelation 20 gives the detail of who participates in that first resurrection. Which means, all other believers who are not martyred are raised at the end.

If you believe that "those who are Christ's at His coming" means every believer from every age, could you show me where either 1 Corinthians 15 or Revelation 20 explicitly says that? That seems to be the very point under discussion.
 
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