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Advantages of the Modern Critical Text of New Testament.

Aussie52

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Older does not mean better. We may have it in good condition because it was not being used.
That is an old, tired KJV only argument. There are no copies of Byzantine text before the 4th century, which shows the lateness of the manuscripts the TR was based on. There are no quotes from the early Fathers that indicate familiarity with the Byzantine text.
 
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Bob Crowley

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There's an AI response here, because I can't be bothered doing a lot of research and don't know enough to make a realistic contribution anyway.


The two main takeaways I received from this were -

Greater Antiquity: The Critical Text incorporates manuscripts dating from the 2nd to 4th centuries (like Codices Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, and early papyri). By contrast, the Received Text relies on a handful of relatively late, medieval Byzantine manuscripts (primarily from the 12th to 16th centuries).

Minor differences - Despite these differences, textual scholars generally agree that the Critical Text and the Received Text share an identical meaning and wording 98% to 99% of the time, as the vast majority of variants are minor spelling or word-order differences.

Other issues according to the item are correction of copyist errors and and continuing scholarly refinement.

When there are differences between Bible translations, I think we need to look at the reason a translation was made in the first place.

I remember my (Presbyterian) pastor who knew his stuff saying he probably had more issues with the NIV than the Good News version. Yet the Good News version was intended for people for whom English was a second language, and was kept "simple" for that reason.

He did say he thought the JB Phillips translation of the New Testament was very well done.

I'm Catholic now and unfortunately I don't read the Bible anywhere near as much as I used to when I was Protestant, which would probably not be uncommon. But despite the pastor's comment about the NIV version, I probably read that version more than any other. The book fell apart in the end.

I have been very slowly wading through the Douay-Rheims version with its slightly archaic language. It was the (English) Catholic Bible at the same time the Protestants were moving towards the King James.

In the end they all say pretty much the same thing.
 
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bling

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That is an old, tired KJV only argument. There are no copies of Byzantine text before the 4th century, which shows the lateness of the manuscripts the TR was based on. There are no quotes from the early Fathers that indicate familiarity with the Byzantine text.
I do not support the KJV, but also think a group of all old white guys limit the interpretation.
 
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David1701

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What would be the advantages of the modern Critical Text of the New Testament as against the Received Text?
(KJV only people need not apply!)
Thank you for your input.
The so-called "Critical Text" has absolutely no objective advantages over the Received Text.
 
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David1701

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Ok, I'll start. The older the manuscript, the more chance there is that it will be close to the original.
As the Critical Text is based on the older manuscripts, the more accurate it is.
The purportedly oldest Greek manuscripts are some of the LEAST likely to be closest to the originals, based on objective criteria.

1) The best manuscripts would be used the most, so would wear out and need to be copied.

2) The allegedly oldest manuscripts are riddled with scribal errors (far more than the majority of manuscripts).

3) The two most widely used "oldest" Greek manuscripts disagree with EACH OTHER more than 3,000 times, in the gospels alone, so are unreliable.

4) There are so few of the allegedly oldest manuscripts that we can't even know if they were representative of the area, or time period, from which they came (Egypt - a hotbed of heresy in the early centuries A.D.).

5) There was something that has come to be called "The Great Transliteration", in the 9th-11th centuries A.D., in which a huge number of ancient, uncial manuscripts was copied to more modern cursive script. In other words, the majority of the Greek manuscripts are direct copies of much older manuscripts; and, they agree with each other very well (far better than the "oldest" do), in spite of the fact they all appear to have been copied from different uncials.

6) One of the two most widely used "oldest" manuscripts has more attempted corrections, by numerous different scribes, than any other extant manuscript.

etc., etc..
 

Valletta

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Ok, I'll start. The older the manuscript, the more chance there is that it will be close to the original.
As the Critical Text is based on the older manuscripts, the more accurate it is.
Yes, in most cases the older manuscripts are better. Catholic Erasmus did not have access to the most reliable texts. In fact, for some words he had no Greek text at all (a very small number of words) and had to "back translate" from Latin. The Greek version by Erasmus seemed hurried--he spent more years on the Latin translation. So for accuracy sake his version is far worse, and errors ended up in the KJV. For example, there is a beautiful Catholic prayer from the early Church that was added in after the Our Father prayer. "For thine is the kingdom . . .."
Saint Jerome recognized this as a doxology more than a thousand years before the KJV, not part of the original God-breathed text, in many cases added into the margins. This knowledge was lost to KJV translators and they included it as part of Holy Scripture.
 
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Bob Crowley

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For example, there is a beautiful Catholic prayer from the early Church that was added in after the Our Father prayer. "For thine is the kingdom . .

Saint Jerome recognized this as a doxology more than a thousand years before the KJV, not part of the original God-breathed text, in many cases added into the margins. This knowledge was lost to KJV translators and they included it as part of Holy Scripture.

Off topic, but when I first became Catholic I wondered why the bit about "For thine is the kingdom etc" was stated separately from the Our Father. When I was Protestant it was included as part of the Lord's Prayer, and I would just rattle it off.

The Catholic position is more accurate, and there is a gap between the "Our Father" and the doxology.

From an AI source - Older manuscripts Biblical scholars agree that the doxology does not appear in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts of the Gospels of Matthew 6:9-13 or Luke 11:2-4. In the earliest New Testament texts, the prayer simply ends with the petition "...but deliver us from evil".
 
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2PhiloVoid

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What would be the advantages of the modern Critical Text of the New Testament as against the Received Text?
(KJV only people need not apply!)
Thank you for your input.

We can only speak of there being 'advantages' if there is some specific ontological goal by which we think we're supposed to be recognizing something important about the nature of the New Testament writings.

However I am not of the mind to think we need to worry about that 'goal.' I can appreciate both the Critical Text and the Received Text, keeping these categories of textual evaluation and valuation available for study in tandem as needed.
 
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David1701

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Yes, in most cases the older manuscripts are better. Catholic Erasmus did not have access to the most reliable texts. In fact, for some words he had no Greek text at all (a very small number of words) and had to "back translate" from Latin. The Greek version by Erasmus seemed hurried--he spent more years on the Latin translation. So for accuracy sake his version is far worse, and errors ended up in the KJV. For example, there is a beautiful Catholic prayer from the early Church that was added in after the Our Father prayer. "For thine is the kingdom . . .."
Saint Jerome recognized this as a doxology more than a thousand years before the KJV, not part of the original God-breathed text, in many cases added into the margins. This knowledge was lost to KJV translators and they included it as part of Holy Scripture.
About 1% of the Greek manuscripts that contain Matt. 6:13 omit "For thine is the kingdom...". In other words, it is almost completely certain that it is indeed part of the inspired text and did not originate as an R.C. doxology.
 
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Valletta

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About 1% of the Greek manuscripts that contain Matt. 6:13 omit "For thine is the kingdom...". In other words, it is almost completely certain that it is indeed part of the inspired text and did not originate as an R.C. doxology.
Catholics look at the texts at the time of the Apostles and the immediate centuries afterward. A similar (but not identical) prayer to, "for thine is the kingdom . . ," is in the Didache, which describes the Catholic mass liturgy in the late first century. The error of including that prayer is not found in the earliest texts. Jerome, who worked from the best available texts of the time, omitted it as a doxology when he worked on translating the Gospels, no later than 384 A.D. But in the next century it was, in error, copied into Biblical Byzantine Greek texts. The fact that there were many copies containing that particular error that survived does not mean there was no error.
 
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Hentenza

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That is an old, tired KJV only argument. There are no copies of Byzantine text before the 4th century, which shows the lateness of the manuscripts the TR was based on. There are no quotes from the early Fathers that indicate familiarity with the Byzantine text.
Actually the codex 1 from the 12th century was used for the initial editions of the TR. Erasmus used the codex 2 from the 6th century later to refine later editions.
 
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Hentenza

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Catholics look at the texts at the time of the Apostles and the immediate centuries afterward. A similar (but not identical) prayer to, "for thine is the kingdom . . ," is in the Didache, which describes the Catholic mass liturgy in the late first century. The error of including that prayer is not found in the earliest texts. Jerome, who worked from the best available texts of the time, omitted it as a doxology when he worked on translating the Gospels, no later than 384 A.D. But in the next century it was, in error, copied into Biblical Byzantine Greek texts. The fact that there were many copies containing that particular error that survived does not mean there was no error.
There are no extant New Testament fragments or manuscripts that date to the time of the apostles. The earliest fragment is p52 from the middle of the second century and is a small fragment containing a few verses from the gospel of John. Also, the oldest extant fragment of the didache dates to the 4th century.
 
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David1701

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Catholics look at the texts at the time of the Apostles and the immediate centuries afterward. A similar (but not identical) prayer to, "for thine is the kingdom . . ," is in the Didache, which describes the Catholic mass liturgy in the late first century. The error of including that prayer is not found in the earliest texts. Jerome, who worked from the best available texts of the time, omitted it as a doxology when he worked on translating the Gospels, no later than 384 A.D. But in the next century it was, in error, copied into Biblical Byzantine Greek texts. The fact that there were many copies containing that particular error that survived does not mean there was no error.
There are very few Greek N.T. manuscripts from the earliest centuries (which is unsurprising, since the good ones would wear out through use and have to be copied); however, many early uncial manuscripts were copied to minuscules, in the 9th-11th centuries A.D., which means that the majority of Greek manuscripts, whilst themselves quite late, are, in fact, direct copies of much earlier manuscripts, and the vast majority of them contain the latter part of Matt. 6:13.

The claim that the latter part of Matt. 6:13 was an uninspired later addition is just that - a claim. There is no evidence to support it.
 
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Valletta

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There are no extant New Testament fragments or manuscripts that date to the time of the apostles. The earliest fragment is p52 from the middle of the second century and is a small fragment containing a few verses from the gospel of John. Also, the oldest extant fragment of the didache dates to the 4th century.
For the New Testament alone indeed the earliest fragment has been dated around 150 A.D., while it is estimated the Apostle John died around 100 A.D. For the Old Testament the Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest.
 
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Hentenza

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For the New Testament alone indeed the earliest fragment has been dated around 150 A.D., while it is estimated the Apostle John died around 100 A.D. For the Old Testament the Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest.
For the Old Testament we have the Septuagint with extant fragments from the 1st century and the codex vaticanus and siniaticus from the 4th century and codex alexandrinus from the 5th century. The Hebrew text was also available from the Jewish diaspora which Jerome, consulting with the rabbis, used for the vulgate.
 
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Valletta

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There are very few Greek N.T. manuscripts from the earliest centuries (which is unsurprising, since the good ones would wear out through use and have to be copied); however, many early uncial manuscripts were copied to minuscules, in the 9th-11th centuries A.D., which means that the majority of Greek manuscripts, whilst themselves quite late, are, in fact, direct copies of much earlier manuscripts, and the vast majority of them contain the latter part of Matt. 6:13.

The claim that the latter part of Matt. 6:13 was an uninspired later addition is just that - a claim. There is no evidence to support it.
No evidence? There is so much evidence that most Biblical scholars disagree with you. You've made the same mistake in logic. Because something has been copied more times does not make it true. The text from times BEFORE the "for Thine is the kingdom . . " was first included in the Byzantine Greek Biblical body text do not contain that doxology in the body of the text. Nor did Jerome, who did have access to older Greek texts, make the mistake. The KJV translators unfortunately only had access to the later Byzantine Greek texts. The modern-day scholars who gave us the Protestant NASB 2020 Bible and the ESV and the NIB omit that doxology from the Biblical text (they may footnote it). The claim that they gave us those verstions of the Bible based on "no evidence" is quite a criticism of their scholarship.
The fact that so many early century Bibles were undoubtedly written on payprus was more a reflection of the times, not becaus they were not true. It wasn't until the 300s that the Roman empire decided velum for scriptural products, and the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus survive from that time because velum was used. Again, before your Byzantine Greek texts.
 
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Hentenza

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No evidence? There is so much evidence that most Biblical scholars disagree with you. You've made the same mistake in logic. Because something has been copied more times does not make it true. The text from times BEFORE the "for Thine is the kingdom . . " was first included in the Byzantine Greek Biblical body text do not contain that doxology in the body of the text. Nor did Jerome, who did have access to older Greek texts, make the mistake. The KJV translators unfortunately only had access to the later Byzantine Greek texts. The modern-day scholars who gave us the Protestant NASB 2020 Bible and the ESV and the NIB omit that doxology from the Biblical text (they may footnote it). The claim that they gave us those verstions of the Bible based on "no evidence" is quite a criticism of their scholarship.
The fact that so many early century Bibles were undoubtedly written on payprus was more a reflection of the times, not becaus they were not true. It wasn't until the 300s that the Roman empire decided velum for scriptural products, and the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus survive from that time because velum was used. Again, before your Byzantine Greek texts.
The didache included the doxology in chapter 8. It was probably added to scripture at some point after that by a well meaning scribe.
 
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