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Doctrine of Unconditional Election

A New Dawn

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I did not suggest that something means the opposite of what it says.
Any time you suggest something means other than what it actually says, you are attaching an opposing meaning to it.

God did not preserve the Bible for it to be complicated to understand and require specialists to interpret it for us. If that is the case, that we need specialists to interpret it for us, then we might as well burn all the bibles in all the homes and all the hotels and go back the dark ages of the Catholic church.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Doesn’t contradict my understanding of God or I wouldn’t have said it. What it does illustrate is that you, personally, don’t know what to do with contradicting scriptures (specifically those which contradict your pet beliefs) except to call them out of context or assign different meanings to them which aren’t in evidence in the text.
You have shown no ability whatsoever to refute my arguments, so you can keep saying anything you want, but your claims are meaningless unless you can back them up with scripture. Which you have shown you are unable to do.
 
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A New Dawn

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You have shown no ability whatsoever to refute my arguments, so you can keep saying anything you want, but your claims are meaningless unless you can back them up with scripture. Which you have shown you are unable to do.
I have backed them ALL up with scripture, which you just conveniently tossed aside as “out of context” or any other reason you care to come up with so that you don’t have to refute them.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I have backed them ALL up with scripture, which you just conveniently tossed aside as “out of context” or any other reason you care to come up with so that you don’t have to refute them.
Nonsense. You are not being honest here at all. I have addressed all of the scriptures you brought up and all of your arguments. Meanwhile, you have not addressed most of the scriptures I have used to back up my view. You are clearly afraid to actually address anything that's not in your normal script to address. If things ever go off script, you don't know what to say and you ignore it.
 
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Valletta

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Any time you suggest something means other than what it actually says, you are attaching an opposing meaning to it.

God did not preserve the Bible for it to be complicated to understand and require specialists to interpret it for us. If that is the case, that we need specialists to interpret it for us, then we might as well burn all the bibles in all the homes and all the hotels and go back the dark ages of the Catholic church.
Fortunately the Catholic Church was able to preach, preserve, and translate the Bible into so many language of the people over all of those centuries.
 
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A New Dawn

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Fortunately the Catholic Church was able to preach, preserve, and translate the Bible into so many language of the people over all of those centuries.
Yes, but the question remains what good is it if we cannot understand it by reading it. As some are postulating.
 
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A New Dawn

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Nonsense. You are not being honest here at all. I have addressed all of the scriptures you brought up and all of your arguments. Meanwhile, you have not addressed most of the scriptures I have used to back up my view. You are clearly afraid to actually address anything that's not in your normal script to address. If things ever go off script, you don't know what to say and you ignore it.
Ho-hum. Shall I just go back through the thread and count all the excuses you’ve made for discounting everything I (and others) have posted?
 
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Valletta

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Yes, but the question remains what good is it if we cannot understand it by reading it. As some are postulating.
That goes back to God confusing our languages and God's decision not to give us all instant understanding. I don't know why but I accept it and acknowledge God's ways are far above our ways. I had previously pointed out how the lack of knowledge of a translated Biblical word, the Koine Greek word translated into "until," can cause a person to come to a false conclusion. So too many come to false Biblical understandings because they don't have knowledge of the Jewish idioms. It seemed obvious that Biblical understanding was not clear and easy at the reformation, when the reformers all had different opinions on the Holy Eucharist. If John 6 was read with a proper knowledge of Koine Greek and of the rest of the BIble they should not have made such errors. Finally, realize the books of the Bible were originally chosen as (and still are) liturgical books, of which readings were used at mass. For most of Christianity the majority of people could not read, Bible study is wonderful and can be spiritually enlightning and can bring one closer to God, but came way after the time of the Apostles. Even in western Europe most people were not literate until around the end of the 17th century, and Bibles were scarce before the printing press.
 
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Brightfame52

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That God chose individuals to Salvation in Election is bore out by the phrase names, which is personal.

Rev 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”


Lk 10:20 “Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”

Phil 4:3 “And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow-labourers, whose names are in the book of life.” 6
 
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Valletta

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That God chose individuals to Salvation in Election is bore out by the phrase names, which is personal.

Rev 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”


Lk 10:20 “Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”

Phil 4:3 “And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow-labourers, whose names are in the book of life.” 6
God chooses no one to go to hell. He gives us all the gift of free will and the graces to go to Heaven.
 
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A New Dawn

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God chooses no one to go to hell. He gives us all the gift of free will and the graces to go to Heaven.
I think it is a bit more complicated than that. Man, through Adam as our representative, chose to rebel whereby sin entered the world and death by sin (spiritual death), separating us from God, meaning we have chosen hell for ourselves. God, in his mercy, chooses some for salvation.
 
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David1701

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God chooses no one to go to hell. He gives us all the gift of free will and the graces to go to Heaven.
Says the Bible nowhere.

This "free will" doctrine is really idolatry of the will. It trusts in the choices implemented by man's fallen will to be the deciding factor in salvation, rather than God's free-grace choice of which hell-deserving sinners to save.
 
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A New Dawn

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That goes back to God confusing our languages and God's decision not to give us all instant understanding. I don't know why but I accept it and acknowledge God's ways are far above our ways. I had previously pointed out how the lack of knowledge of a translated Biblical word, the Koine Greek word translated into "until," can cause a person to come to a false conclusion. So too many come to false Biblical understandings because they don't have knowledge of the Jewish idioms. It seemed obvious that Biblical understanding was not clear and easy at the reformation, when the reformers all had different opinions on the Holy Eucharist. If John 6 was read with a proper knowledge of Koine Greek and of the rest of the BIble they should not have made such errors. Finally, realize the books of the Bible were originally chosen as (and still are) liturgical books, of which readings were used at mass. For most of Christianity the majority of people could not read, Bible study is wonderful and can be spiritually enlightning and can bring one closer to God, but came way after the time of the Apostles. Even in western Europe most people were not literate until around the end of the 17th century, and Bibles were scarce before the printing press.
All the things in the Bible were said and recorded before any institutionalized church was created by man.

I agree that in the beginning of the church era that most people could not read and that the texts of the scriptures we have were not readily available to all. I also believe that that is the reason creeds came into being. It was the number one way doctrine was passed back in those early days. But when the printing press was invented and the Bible was printed so that more people could read it for themselves, the church took a harsh stance against it. That was the reason for what I said in the post of mine that you quoted. I realize the pro’s and con’s of the various translations and try to understand the why’s for the various translations as well as how the manuscripts differ, etc. (IOWs, textual criticisms), but on the whole, since the Bible is the word of God, and He is able to, not just protect the physical book, but to inspire our understanding, then we don’t need to to be told how to understand it anymore.
 
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David1701

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God knows all, God knows who will go to Heaven. That does not mean God "chose" people, God gave us all the gift of free will.
Rom. 9:14-24 (Webster)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? By no means.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith to Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then to me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus? {repliest...: or, answerest again, or, disputest with God?}
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: {fitted: or, made up}
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Who gets saved does not depend upon the sinner's will, but upon God's will, as the Bible states.
 
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Valletta

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Rom. 9:14-24 (Webster)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? By no means.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith to Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then to me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus? {repliest...: or, answerest again, or, disputest with God?}
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: {fitted: or, made up}
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Who gets saved does not depend upon the sinner's will, but upon God's will, as the Bible states.

Phil 2: 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so no, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. RSVCE
 
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David1701

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Phil 2: 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so no, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. RSVCE
You can't outwork salvation until you have been given it! Besides which, the next verse tells you how the outworking works...

Phil. 2:12,13 (Webster)
12 Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God who worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God works the willingness and doing within us, and we (having been made willing) display that on the outside. He is the hand and we are the glove.
 
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Valletta

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You can't outwork salvation until you have been given it! Besides which, the next verse tells you how the outworking works...

Phil. 2:12,13 (Webster)
12 Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God who worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God works the willingness and doing within us, and we (having been made willing) display that on the outside. He is the hand and we are the glove.
I merely quoted the Bible. We are saved through Baptism, and God continues to save us.
 
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A New Dawn

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Phil 2: 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so no, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. RSVCE
This verse is speaking to believers who have already been saved, and is speaking strictly to sanctification. The process of becoming conformed to the image of Christ.
 
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