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A possible huge bug of our science

essentialsaltes

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It's not easy like pressing a button, and this knowledge isn't easy to share. And even if it's shared, people doubt it.

The only way to detect God is to be sincere for a long time.
Fake it until you make it is a fine way to brainwash yourself. As a method for detecting whether something exists, it's a bit lacking in rigor.
No, you don't know it. You heard it.
Like some here, I have a scientific academic background, so some things -- say some of the basic laws regarding radioactive decay -- I have direct experimental knowledge of. Regardless, even if I 'only' heard it, if an idea is clear and distinct and well-supported by evidence, it is knowledge.
Millions of years have passed,
Well, at least you accept that much. But if you're such a radical capital-s Skeptic, you don't know that. You heard it.
 
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sjastro

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No, you don't know it. You heard it.

Your data was passed on to who knows how many people and played with until it reached you. You're not a primary source, nor a secondary source. You might even be 10 levels below that.

Not to mention the conclusion about the formation of the grand canyon is, at best, guesswork. There's no way to know what really happened, and no way to find out how accurate your conclusion is. Millions of years have passed, anything could have happened.

How is this any better than imagination or hearsay?

I'm not saying you or the other side is wrong or right. There's a chance your conclusion is right. But the way you're arguing is definitely wrong and will cause you issues if you continue like that.
The idea that anything that has occurred in the distant past can only be contemplated by imagination or worse still pure guesswork illustrates a lack of understanding of how science works.
For example in the 1940s a really clever dude made the prediction if there was a Big Bang it would it would leave a background radiation at a temperature of around 5K.
In the 1960s the background radiation was discovered and found to have a temperature of 2.7K, hence the prediction was quite accurate.

So how did this prediction come about.

(1) In the early part of the 20th century it was found distant galaxies recede from each other.
The further the galaxies were from the observer the faster they receded.
(2) From this data, four very smart dudes independently came up with the theory the universe is expanding and could be described by a piece of mathematics known as a metric.
(3) When this metric was plugged in Einstein's theory of general relativity field equations, mathematical equations were generated which could define the rate of expansion of the universe.
(4) Applying thermodynamics, the early universe must have been extremely hot and expansion cooled the universe.
(5) Around the same time frame for the development of the Big Bang expansion theory, scientists were uncovering the nature of the atom being composed of a positive charged nucleus and negative charged electrons and the high temperatures of the early universe would result in free electrons and nuclei.
(6) The existence of a background radiation was predicted that as the universe cooled, free electrons became bonded to proton nuclei to form the primeval hydrogen.
Prior to this photons were being scattered by electrons and the universe was opaque.
The radiation background was the last stage before the universe became transparent to light.
(7) This last stage was predicted when the universe had expanded by a factor of around 1100X and since the temperature is inversely proportional to this expansion factor, the temperature of the background radiation as it is today was predicted to be 5K compared to the observed value of 2.7K.

This is clearly in stark contrast to the use of one's imagination in describing an event well before humans came on the scene.
 
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Hans Blaster

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It's not easy like pressing a button, and this knowledge isn't easy to share. And even if it's shared, people doubt it.

The only way to detect God is to be sincere for a long time. Spend your time doing good, right your wrongs, and want to find out about God. After days, months, or years, I don't know, you'll receive appropriate confirmation through an event, a dream, a miracle, etc.
<s ar casm > well that's a fine method <end s ar casm> :rolleyes:

Your method is "desire to see something" then "look at various things for a vague signal of that something". This is a combination of wishful thinking and a path to self-delusion. You will, no doubt, find the god you are looking for that way, but the result will be anything but sound.

I'm not saying that "science can detect god", but the thing that science has going for it is rigorous methodology and sound skepticism of ones own desires to find that something that would prove them right.
No, you don't know it. You heard it.

Your data was passed on to who knows how many people and played with until it reached you. You're not a primary source, nor a secondary source. You might even be 10 levels below that.

Not to mention the conclusion about the formation of the grand canyon is, at best, guesswork. There's no way to know what really happened, and no way to find out how accurate your conclusion is. Millions of years have passed, anything could have happened.

How is this any better than imagination or hearsay?

I'm not saying you or the other side is wrong or right. There's a chance your conclusion is right. But the way you're arguing is definitely wrong and will cause you issues if you continue like that.
Can I just put you down as someone who:

  1. Doesn't understand how science works;
  2. Ignores what actual science results show in favor of their own preferencs;
  3. Willingly spreads anti-science propaganda from ideologues and corporate shills;
and move straight to cutting down you posts, mr "cia"?
 
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AV1611VET

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AV1611VET

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The idea that anything that has occurred in the distant past can only be contemplated by imagination or worse still pure guesswork illustrates a lack of understanding of how science works.

But does science "work" -- or would it be better to say science is "working on it"?

If science works, then why does it have to readjust itself so much?

A hammer "works" when it drives a nail into a board.

But if a hammer is having to readjust its head because its HRC (hardness) is too low, can you say "it works"?

"One of these days this will work" is not the same thing as saying "this works."
 
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CIA Agent #1029

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When I respond to A, B responds. When I reply to B, C responds.
When I speak politely, I get ad hominem attacks.
When I respond to a point made before, the next person denies said point.
When I'm talking about the general picture, I get responses lost in the details.
When my point is the way you're arguing is wrong, you ignore it and continue the argument.

This isn't how to argue. You people aren't here to argue. You're here just to talk, or worse.
Would you say a good way to sum up what you're saying is:

"You weren't there."
Yes. It's not exactly it but it's very close.
 
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AV1611VET

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CIA Agent #1029

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Welcome to CF, my friend!

You'll get so many different responses, you'll have to like one of them!
That's a shame. I've been in other forums before and they also have this issue.

If someone wants to continue the argument sincerely with me, then private message me.
I don't understand what you mean?
 
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sjastro

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But does science "work" -- or would it be better to say science is "working on it"?

If science works, then why does it have to readjust itself so much?

A hammer "works" when it drives a nail into a board.

But if a hammer is having to readjust its head because its HRC (hardness) is too low, can you say "it works"?

"One of these days this will work" is not the same thing as saying "this works."
A scientific theory is always a work in progress.
It is a theory because it is supported by experiment and observation but no theory can explain everything.
The theory becomes an approximation to some more advanced theory.

Newtonian gravity is an approximation for General Relativity which in turn is an approximation to an expected unified field theory where gravity is unified with electromagnetism and the weak and strong forces.

Mathematically it can shown Einstein's field equations for General Relativity break down to Newton's equations for gravity when gravitational fields are weak such as found on Earth.
 
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sjastro

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When I respond to A, B responds. When I reply to B, C responds.
This is how public forums operate, you are not engaging in PMs with A, B or C.
When I speak politely, I get ad hominem attacks.
So anyone who disagrees with you by default is engaging in ad hom attacks.
When I respond to a point made before, the next person denies said point.
When I'm talking about the general picture, I get responses lost in the details.
When my point is the way you're arguing is wrong, you ignore it and continue the argument.

This isn't how to argue. You people aren't here to argue. You're here just to talk, or worse.

Yes. It's not exactly it but it's very close.
Here is the general picture, you come into a science forum with an opinion, not facts, about science.
Of course you are going to get pushback particularly when the respondents are scientists, or work in related fields.

On the subject of imagination and science, Einstein stated imagination was his nose but also added his imagination was curbed by making sure the laws of physics were not violated.
Carl Sagan equated imagination with thinking outside the box but warned excessive imagination could lead to one's brains falling out.
 
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dlamberth

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On the subject of imagination and science, Einstein stated imagination was his nose but also added his imagination was curbed by making sure the laws of physics were not violated.
I remember reading long ago that Einstein would visually in his imagination follow his calculation to see where they lead.
 
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sjastro

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I remember reading long ago that Einstein would visually in his imagination follow his calculation to see where they lead.
Einstein imagined window washers or painters falling off buildings in free fall which inspired his equivalence principle which was the forerunner of his theory of gravity in the form of General Relativity.
 
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AV1611VET

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The theory will account for and predict a wide class of observations of the relevant phenomena.

Can predictions based on observations fail after being put in use?
 
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essentialsaltes

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Can predictions based on observations fail after being put in use?
Certainly if the new observations are outside the wide class that led to the development of the theory. As noted above, the Newtonian theory fails when tested at relativistic speeds (such observations were unavailable in Newton's day).
 
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AV1611VET

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Certainly if the new observations are outside the wide class that led to the development of the theory.

Has a failure ever occurred because something passed observation, but failed when put in use; having wide-scale dire consequences on the general population?
 
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essentialsaltes

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Has a failure ever occurred because something passed observation, but failed when put in use; having wide-scale dire consequences on the general population?
Knowing (alas) how your brain works, keep in mind we're talking about scientific theories here and predictions and observations, not the practice of drug regulation or spaceflight engineering.

There is, for instance, no scientific theory that predicts teratogenicity in pharmaceuticals.

So you are, inevitably, drifting away from the topic toward your hobbyhorses.
 
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AV1611VET

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There is, for instance, no scientific theory that predicts teratogenicity in pharmaceuticals.

Wasn't it theorized at the time that no drug could pass through the placental wall, despite the fact that babies were being born hooked on heroin?
 
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