Jn 19, 11 : Please, Do you know why Jesus uses : "Therefore", in his reply ?

peter2 · Jul 3, 2026

honey badger said:
For God is the One working in you⁺ both to will and to work on behalf of His good pleasure.

Once again, in Jn 5, 30,

peter2 said:
I suppose Jesus is saying that he cannot do anything good on his own when it comes to judgment.

honey badger said:
so Who has the greater sin ?

I still think it's Judas

honey badger · Jul 3, 2026

peter2 said:
Once again, in Jn 5, 30,

I still think it's Judas

without a Judas ( devil\serpent Jesus chose) Jesus would not have gone to his cross ...

peter2 · Jul 3, 2026

honey badger said:
without a Judas ( devil\serpent Jesus chose) Jesus would not have gone to his cross ...

I wrote a thread once on CF, that could be of assistance for you :
"who is the more of a victim ?", but i can't give you the link because of a bug with my CF connections (i have to connect with 7th, 8th, 9th, etc.. google page).
In short, i was asking readers whether they thought the more victim was he that tries to look one, or he that doesn't

Minister Monardo · Jul 5, 2026

peter2 said:
Jn 19,

Yes, the word ‘therefore’ indicates a cause-and-effect relationship.
Why, please,
and based on what reasoning does the fact that Pilate received authority over Jesus from above make him less of a sinner than the one who handed him over (Judas, I suppose)?
I suppose it has to do with the degree of freedom each of them had, but I’m not certain…

If my hypothesis is correct, Judas’s betrayal would be more deliberate and calculated than Pilate’s execution of Jesus.

I’m not sure that’s what Jesus means when he ranks the degree of sinfulness of each one of them.

10 So Pilate *said to Him, “Are you not speaking to me?
Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?”

Pilate's claim of authority came from Rome.
Jesus responds that authority would be meaningless if it was not the Father's Will.
Matthew 26:53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father,
and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

Minister Monardo · Jul 5, 2026

peter2 said:
Jn 19,

Yes, the word ‘therefore’ indicates a cause-and-effect relationship.
Why, please,
and based on what reasoning does the fact that Pilate received authority over Jesus from above make him less of a sinner than the one who handed him over (Judas, I suppose)?
I suppose it has to do with the degree of freedom each of them had, but I’m not certain…

If my hypothesis is correct, Judas’s betrayal would be more deliberate and calculated than Pilate’s execution of Jesus.

I’m not sure that’s what Jesus means when he ranks the degree of sinfulness of each one of them.

7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
The Jewish leaders bore false witness against the Son of God, charging Him with blasphemy.
John 10:36 “do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world,
‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Minister Monardo · Jul 5, 2026

Minister Monardo said:
7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
The Jewish leaders bore false witness against the Son of God, charging Him with blasphemy.
John 10:36 “do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world,
‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Matthew 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;
what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

David1701 · Jul 5, 2026

peter2 said:
Jn 19,

Yes, the word ‘therefore’ indicates a cause-and-effect relationship.
Why, please,
and based on what reasoning does the fact that Pilate received authority over Jesus from above make him less of a sinner than the one who handed him over (Judas, I suppose)?
I suppose it has to do with the degree of freedom each of them had, but I’m not certain…

If my hypothesis is correct, Judas’s betrayal would be more deliberate and calculated than Pilate’s execution of Jesus.

I’m not sure that’s what Jesus means when he ranks the degree of sinfulness of each one of them.

Pilate's authority over Jesus had been given to him by God (the powers that be are of God); whereas, Judas had no such authority given to him by God (he arrogated to himself the "right" to hand Jesus over to his captors).

Rom. 13:1-4 (Webster)
1 Let every soul be subject to the higher powers. For there is no power but from God: the powers that are, are ordained by God. {ordained: or, ordered}
2 Whoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves condemnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou doest that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

David1701 · Jul 5, 2026

David Lamb said:
(Joh 19:11 NKJV) Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

Jesus said that Pilate's power against Jesus had been given by God. Judas Iscariot's betrayal, although foreknown and foretold by God, was totally a result of his own sinful desires. That is, I believe, why Jesus says that the one who delivered Him to Pilate (via the chief priests) had the greater sin.

I largely agree with his; however, I would not say that Judas' betrayal was totally a result of his own sinful desires, since Jesus deliberately chose him to be an apostle, in order that Judas would betray him and so fulfil Scripture.

Minister Monardo · Jul 5, 2026

peter2 said:
Once again, in Jn 5, 30,

I still think it's Judas

Hi Peter,
I hope this greeting finds you prospering, and in good health. (3 John 1:2).
Judas is a reasonable candidate. I would rule him out by the evidence I provided that it was the leadership in Jerusalem who brought charges against the Lord before Pilate's Bema. The testimony of Judas was that he was a thief and covetous, but he brought no charges against the Lord before Pilate or the Sanhedrin. He saw a chance to make a quick buck (or whatever 30 silver coins amounts to), and agreed to lead the soldiers to the Lord's camp so that they could make an arrest. Of course, this betrayal was a fulfillment of several prophecies. These leaders, and the mob that they misled had the audacity to curse their own children.
Matthew 27:25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children."

peter2 · Jul 5, 2026

Minister Monardo said:
Hi Peter,
I hope this greeting finds you prospering, and in good health. (3 John 1:2).

Hello, MM
it's very kind of you, i wish you as much

Minister Monardo said:
The testimony of Judas was that he was a thief and covetous, but he brought no charges against the Lord before Pilate or the Sanhedrin

Yes, but as I wrote recently, I had started a thread about a contest between Judah and Jesus (darkness versus light; lies versus truth) to claim the status of victim. But my connections on CF are bugging
To me, in fact, this suicide that Judas committed would be the ultimate ploy against faith—a particularly treacherous one.

Let me explain and justify my position:
By committing this suicide, isn’t he portraying himself as a victim—and perhaps even, why not, as a victim of Jesus? Jesus, however, by comparison, did not choose to die. Judas did!

That is why I continue to believe that Judas is a devil, as Scripture says, and—again, based on Scripture—he is the one who betrays Jesus.

His sin lies in his deliberate actions. I believe he had far more leeway than the chief priests. Jesus never accused him before the Last Supper, whereas the three prophecies of the Passion identified the elders and the priests as his future murderers.
Judas, as Mr. Lamb says, was guided by his passions, while the priests were guided by a sense of rivalry. Yet it seems to me that passions are less “tyrannical” than rivalry.

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

Minister Monardo · Jul 5, 2026

peter2 said:
Let me explain and justify my position:
By committing this suicide, isn’t he portraying himself as a victim—and perhaps even, why not, as a victim of Jesus? Jesus, however, by comparison, did not choose to die. Judas did!

Yet there must be some value to the fact of his repentance, or we are all hypocrites.
Matthew 27:
3 Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought
back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” And they said, “What is that to us? You see to it!”
5 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.

So according to the testimony, he hung himself in remorse.

Jesus chose to die when He stated, "not my will but yours be done".
Many other scriptures support this, such as
"I delight to do Your will, O my God" Ps 40
Isaiah 53
No doubt suicide is a cowardly act, but some things
are preordained and beyond our speculation imo.
Christ's blood is on us all, and is our Passover Lamb.
Zechariah 11:
12 Then I said to them, “If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.”
So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—that princely price they set on me.
So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD for the potter.

peter2 · Jul 5, 2026

Minister Monardo said:
Yet there must be some value to the fact of his repentance, or we are all hypocrites

What do you mean by repentance?
I think repentance would have meant joining Jesus (and not the conspirators)—at the very least, asking him for forgiveness, even if it meant sharing his fate, like the thief on the cross. Otherwise, the alternative would have been to live, but in my opinion, he was too afraid to bear the spiritual burden of his sin and face the judgment of the other disciples for the rest of his life. And the disciples were plentiful, not just the Twelve…

Minister Monardo said:
Jesus chose to die when He stated, "not my will but yours be done".

Yes, you're right, but do you think he would have thought he was pleasing the Father by committing suicide? He didn't commit suicide..

Minister Monardo · Jul 5, 2026

peter2 said:
What do you mean by repentance?
I think repentance would have meant joining Jesus (and not the conspirators)—at the very least, asking him for forgiveness, even if it meant sharing his fate, like the thief on the cross. Otherwise, the alternative would have been to live, but in my opinion, he was too afraid to bear the spiritual burden of his sin and face the judgment of the other disciples for the rest of his life. And the disciples weren’t just the Twelve…

Yes, you're right, but do you think he would have thought he was pleasing the Father by committing suicide? He didn't commit suicide..

The idea of Jesus committing suicide never entered my mind,
nor would I compare His death to that of Judas.
I have nothing more to say on this, as it isn't even on topic to the question
of who bore the greater sin. I answered who I believe Jesus had in mind
when He made that statement, and it was not Judas.
Grow in Grace.

peter2 · Jul 5, 2026

Minister Monardo said:
I answered who I believe Jesus had in mind
when He made that statement, and it was not Judas.

i thank you. I thought over this again and i'm no longer sure it's Judas..
I'm going on with my search by questionning myself like so :

Why, then, did Jesus feel it was important to point out that the one who had betrayed him had committed a greater sin?

Minister Monardo said:
Grow in Grace.

Thank you. I wish you the best, and i 'm fan of Quincy Magoo

Minister Monardo · Jul 5, 2026

peter2 said:
i thank you. I thought over this again and i'm no longer sure it's Judas..
I'm going on with my search by questionning myself like so :

Why, then, did Jesus feel it was important to point out that the one who had betrayed him had committed a greater sin?

Thank you. I wish you the best, and i 'm fan of Quincy Magoo

To review, here is the quote: 11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above.
Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.
The Jewish leaders handed Jesus over to Pilate, not Judas!
Here is the prophecy that is being fulfilled>
Matthew 20: (Mark 10:32-34)
18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed
unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, (fulfilled by Judas)
19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.
The chief priests handed Jesus over to Pilate, then incited a mob to demand His crucifixion.
Therefore, they bore the greater sin. Judas was not under consideration, nor was it his intent to see Jesus executed.
His motive appears to be forcing the issue of restoring the Kingdom of Israel and ridding them of Roman occupation.
This was the common (mis)perception. Even John the Baptist thought Jesus was here to assume the throne of David,
not go to the Cross to fulfill the scriptures that they all were blinded to.
Luke 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them,
neither knew they the things which were spoken.
Hope this allows you to close out your inquiry.

peter2 · Jul 5, 2026

Minister Monardo said:
Hope this allows you to close out your inquiry.

This allows me to add valuable insights to my reflections, which do indeed tip the scales in the direction you suggest, though I cannot completely abandon my own interpretation.

Thank you so much.

PS I’m currently exploring how Jesus “raises the stakes” with Pilate's shrewdness—in the sense of the shrewdness of the dishonest manager.
But again, I’m straying a bit from the topic of this thread (at least for now).

peter2 · Jul 6, 2026

Jesus Brings Out Pilate’s Political shrewdness

Note: The interpretations I present here, in the context of the parable of the dishonest steward, are very different from what I have heard in quite a few sermons:

And to illustrate this, here are the characters that inspire me:

Emperor Caesar could be the rich man who entrusted the stewardship… to a steward: Pilate
Now,
Caesar would be very keen to uphold his dual reputation for benevolence and as a guardian of public order—the latter, however, with the added label of punisher.

Those who owe debts to Caesar would be the Jewish authorities, who owe him their positions of office.

Sequence of events:

Pilate is denounced to Caesar for acknowledging Jesus’ kingship
(or threatened with denunciation).
I imagine Pilate already picturing himself in exile, removed from office
(the manager dismissed from his post) .
He turns to the Jewish authorities and grants them the political legitimacy of their law, which provides for the death penalty for anyone who claims to be the Son of God
(the forgiveness of their debt, or the recognition of their law).
Jesus—God, Life—is condemned to death
(The manager killed two birds with one stone: Not only have the Jewish authorities become his debtors, but he has also reinforced Caesar’s reputation for benevolence and as a guardian of public order).
Pilate washes his hands. His own worldly reputation is also well preserved.
And… Caesar will be pleased.
(Pilate is undoubtedly a very shrewd steward).

COROLLARY:

If Pilate believes in Jesus’ kingship, it is, it seems to me, because he expected Jesus to deny it, while he had been handed over to him.
Pilate’s reputation for punitive cruelty is the only thing that matters.

Pilate, for his part, is indeed well-placed to know that even someone who has something to prove is likely to deny himself in order to spare himself punishment and save his life. This is the case for most people.

That is why, for the world, the truth has no value.
That is why, for the world, only denials matter.
That is why Pilate does not even listen to see if Jesus has an answer to his question, “What is truth?”
Indeed, Pilate himself has no desire whatsoever to bear even the smallest shred of truth.

Thus, generally speaking, only the staged acts of false punishment are carried through to the end.
Too bad for the condemned person who doesn’t believe in it, or who has something to prove; he will have to endure a punishment—as real as it gets—to serve as an example. The only thing that matters to the world is its reputation for uncompromising punitive cruelty. At stake is its reputation for worldly magnanimity, which the world can then exercise easily—that is, with little opposition.

It is on this supposed magnanimity that all worldliness rests—the very worldliness to which Caesar is so attached.

This is why the Passion of Jesus transcends all worldly strategies
That is why the cross of Jesus transcends all worldliness

com7fy8 · Jul 7, 2026

peter2 said:
Yes, the word ‘therefore’ indicates a cause-and-effect relationship.
Why, please,

Yeah . . . I see how Pilate was given his situation, and he was not particularly delighted to be expected to turn Jesus over to be crucified. "Therefore" Judas, who had been more willing and motivated . . . by money, maybe . . . he was in more trouble. And he was trouble, all along . . . stealing money from the purse, not valuing being trusted by Jesus Himself!

So, Pilate was not preparing to get put in that situation. But Judas had invested in his greed for some time so he could give in to greed for money to betray Jesus. Possibly.

peter2 said:
and based on what reasoning does the fact that Pilate received authority over Jesus from above make him less of a sinner than the one who handed him over (Judas, I suppose)?
I suppose it has to do with the degree of freedom each of them had, but I’m not certain…

In any case Pilate was not pleased to be in the middle of all that. Yet, he gave in to the will of the people!! But Judas was never under pressure, it seems.

peter2 said:
If my hypothesis is correct, Judas’s betrayal would be more deliberate and calculated than Pilate’s execution of Jesus.

I’m not sure that’s what Jesus means when he ranks the degree of sinfulness of each one of them.

If Jesus said it . . . therefore, there always can be more to discover

peter2 · Jul 8, 2026

com7fy8 said:
If Jesus said it . . . therefore, there always can be more to discover

Let's hope so, may be

David1701 · Jul 9, 2026

Minister Monardo said:
Yet there must be some value to the fact of his repentance, or we are all hypocrites.
Matthew 27:
3 Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought
back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” And they said, “What is that to us? You see to it!”
5 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.

So according to the testimony, he hung himself in remorse.

Jesus chose to die when He stated, "not my will but yours be done".
Many other scriptures support this, such as
"I delight to do Your will, O my God" Ps 40
Isaiah 53
No doubt suicide is a cowardly act, but some things
are preordained and beyond our speculation imo.
Christ's blood is on us all, and is our Passover Lamb.
Zechariah 11:
12 Then I said to them, “If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.”
So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—that princely price they set on me.
So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD for the potter.

Remorse is not repentance!

The sorrow of this world leads to death (and Judas committed self-murder); but, godly sorrow leads to repentance.

Jn 19, 11 : Please, Do you know why Jesus uses : "Therefore", in his reply ?

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