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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Lets celebrate what the founding fathers got right.

Pommer

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You don't explain where these numbers are from (or even what time frame you're talking about), but this is an odd statement to make in a topic talking about the founding fathers.
The Founders did a great job securing for themselves and their progeny a new nation in an already well populated land.
From what I understand, the "Founding Fathers period" of the early US seems to have actually been decent point for American-Native American relations.
The Louisiana Purchase was during the Jefferson Administration. Native Americans became squatters, overnight.

The things people most criticize the United States for occurred afterwards. For example, when the Trail of Tears was executed, none of the people who signed the Declaration of Independence were alive anymore.
Yes there were more atrocities later.
 
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Pommer

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It’s funny that you bring the 1st amendment because this is pretty much an exclusive of the US. So all the whining is allowed because the US has freedom of speech. There you go. Whine about that. :oldthumbsup:
Gee, it’s almost as if you’re mad that we agree!
A more just system is fine but I still think we are way ahead of most other countries.
We are way ahead of a lot of countries; we got here by having a Very Large Military and that model might be played out. Our hegemony may be coming to an end, as China (with its 4x population) (re)arises from its revolutionary ashes?
You too. Thanks.
 
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JSRG

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The Founders did a great job securing for themselves and their progeny a new nation in an already well populated land.

So this was in reply to my comment of:

You don't explain where these numbers are from (or even what time frame you're talking about), but this is an odd statement to make in a topic talking about the founding fathers.

So (1) where are those numbers from, and (2) what time frame were you referring to? You didn't answer the question. You did say "110 years" but did not specify the starting and ending points (or how much of the decrease was in the founding era). These points are important for knowing what you're talking about so one can more specifically see what happened in what parts of those time periods, particularly as you're blasting the founders for this.

The Louisiana Purchase was during the Jefferson Administration. Native Americans became squatters, overnight.

No more so than they were when the French claimed it--and I again believe that the things people generally criticize about things like settlement and displacement of the Louisiana Purchase area were generally in the post-founders era.

Yes there were more atrocities later.
Okay, but what were there in the time period that was under discussion? Please be specific rather than vague. So far the only thing you've pointed to is the Louisiana Purchase which I don't think particularly supports your point.
 
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Hentenza

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Gee, it’s almost as if you’re mad that we agree!
Nah. I used a smiley. :cool:
We are way ahead of a lot of countries; we got here by having a Very Large Military and that model might be played out. Our hegemony may be coming to an end, as China (with its 4x population) (re)arises from its revolutionary ashes?
Historically all powerful civilizations fall so it will happen eventually. However, some have lasted hundreds and thousands of years before falling so we’ll see.
 
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JSRG

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We are way ahead of a lot of countries; we got here by having a Very Large Military and that model might be played out. Our hegemony may be coming to an end, as China (with its 4x population) (re)arises from its revolutionary ashes?
I don't think China will be able to take the United States' place. Its population is certainly an advantage, but it's fallen behind India now in that, and China has a real economic problem in how its population is decreasing. Part of this is of course the fact as countries develop, the birth rate tends to go down, though China also accelerated this with the one child policies they had for a while. And marked population decrease presents various economic difficulties. This is a problem for a number of countries (including the nearby South Korea and Japan), but usually those are more developed ones who have better ability to handle it. China isn't quite at their level so it's harder.

Some countries with a declining birth rate can make up for this via immigration. But China would have to change a bunch of things to make that feasible. The problem is, why would someone want to come to live in China? It's a dictatorship, naturalization is extremely difficult from what I understand, and the language is infamously difficult to master (to be fair, as the same author has noted, technology has made it a little easier).

Obviously, trends can change. But right now it's looking like China is going to be losing influence and power going forward, not gaining it.
 
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Pommer

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So this was in reply to my comment of:

You don't explain where these numbers are from (or even what time frame you're talking about), but this is an odd statement to make in a topic talking about the founding fathers.

So (1) where are those numbers from, and (2) what time frame were you referring to?
I didn‘t elaborate because I didn’t want to.


You didn't answer the question. You did say "110 years" but did not specify the starting and ending points (or how much of the decrease was in the founding era).

ibid.
These points are important for knowing what you're talking about so one can more specifically see what happened in what parts of those time periods, particularly as you're blasting the founders for this.
”Blasting”? I’m recounting history (badly).
No more so than they were when the French claimed it--and I again believe that the things people generally criticize about things like settlement and displacement of the Louisiana Purchase area were generally in the post-founders era.


Okay, but what were there in the time period that was under discussion? Please be specific rather than vague. So far the only thing you've pointed to is the Louisiana Purchase which I don't think particularly supports your point.
I’ve got dinner to make and movies to watch before the fireworks this evening, have a great Holiday!
 
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NxNW

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Just tired of the whining. If all you (general you) have nothing but negative comments then why suffer like that. Just go already.
We need more positivity like this:

41553.jpg
 
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perplexed

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After George III left the first time, the new nation turned on its indigenous population, wiping out about 80%*, so there’s that.

*which took about 110 years
Genocide is horrific and never be excused but that it is not the point, People could publicly argue that it would be better to abandon the constitution and be become subjects of George III once again and not be executed for sedition/ being a counter revolutionary, that was exceptional and a good thing.
 
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Hentenza

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PloverWing

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Well, has anyone seen a happy Democrat?

You're kidding, right?

I live in New Jersey, a pretty blue state, and I have family in a couple of blue states in New England. These places are full of people living their lives, having fun with their families, going to beaches or lakes or mountains, shopping at farm markets and craft fairs, doing all sorts of stuff that makes life good.

Nobody's happy 100% of the time, and everybody seems grumpier on social media, red and blue alike. But when we put down our phones and go outside, yeah, we're pretty happy living our multi-ethnic, multicultural lives here. Our town had a parade this morning and fireworks this evening. It was great.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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Pommer

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I’d much rather duke-it-out on the intrawebs than actually sit down with political adversaries, but that’s not everyone’s ken.
It’s okay to be angry and scared, these are great times for that!
It’s just “our-turn” at handing off the Democratic-Republic to the next few generations and step out of their way.

My folks were of the “Greatest Generation“, they done alright with coming of age as the Great Depression bloomed before them; fought in World War II; participated in the greatest industrial reboot of the world, ever; build the U.S. Highway System; and right before retiring, taking the computing power of a watch to the moon and back.

My Generation, the “Boomers”, cut taxes for forty years and kept insisting that things would “be better”.

We should show ourselves out.
 
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