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The Reconquista of Mainline Protestant Churches

Shane R

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This idea has been getting much discussion in some of the circles I follow. The term, best I can tell, was coined by a YouTuber named Redeemed Zoomer and his bud Young Anglican. They belong to the Presbyterian Church USA and The Episcopal Church, respectively. The idea is that folks in there 20s are trending more conservative and can take back the legacy Protestant denominations from the "liberals" who've run them for many years. I have many thoughts about the project which I will share in time.
 

PloverWing

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I have encountered Redeemed Zoomer on YouTube. He seems like a thoughtful fellow. I disagree with him on some things, as he is theologically conservative and I am not, but I appreciate his wanting to stay within the historic Protestant denominations instead of leaving to start his own nondenominational church. He is correct that there's a rich body of theology and spirituality in these historic denominations.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
 
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jas3

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I watch RZ's videos occasionally, never heard of Young Anglican though. My impression from his videos and appearances on other channels is that he's very zealous but also very naive. His Reconquista idea seems to come from a thought process of
  • Western culture is in a sharp decline, largely due to secularization
  • To reverse this decline, we need to reverse secularization
  • Historic (16th-20th centuries) western European and American Christianity was mainline Protestant
  • Therefore, if secularization is to be reversed, the move should be toward mainline Protestantism
I see many problems with his reasoning.
  1. Much of Western culture, especially in Europe, actually has a Catholic heritage rather than Protestant.
  2. If his idealized traditional mainline Protestantism of, say, 100 years ago allowed the decline into liberalism we have today, there is no reason to believe that returning to the status quo of 100 years ago would have a different outcome.
  3. Particularly the Reconquista idea requires a large number of activists. This rules out people with children and people who (IMO correctly) believe that having your experience of church be an unending struggle against a tide of heresy being taught at the institutional level is spiritually harmful. Maybe the remaining population of activists would be enough if conservatives hadn't already left the mainline denominations, but that ship has sailed.
He asks why the traditionalists are always the ones leaving the denomination when a split occurs and insists that they should stay (and keep the historic church buildings) and kick out the liberals, but I've never seen him consider that this isn't a new idea and yet the traditionalists are always the ones to leave. I have seen him note that liberals tend to be more comfortable with existing as an element of "resistance" in a denomination where their views are condemned, but he doesn't seem to have considered why that is.

Finally, I don't see the benefit to conservative Protestants returning to liturgical, historical Protestantism specifically in the mainline denominations. In some cases, like the UMC and PCUSA, and I'm sure others as well, the mainline denomination he wants to retake hasn't actually been around that long. It seems to me that if returning to early 20th century Protestantism is the goal, there's not any value added by doing that under the name "UMC" compared to "GMC."
 
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PloverWing

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It's interesting how the issues that characterize "liberal" vs "conservative" have shifted, even in my lifetime.

I browsed Redeemed Zoomer's website this evening (Redeemed Zoomer) to see exactly what issues are important to him as he attempts to "reconquer" the mainline churches -- what does he want to purge, and what does he want to put in its place. The website is incomplete, so some pieces are missing. But I did find this Statement of Faith: Statement of faith - Redeemed Zoomer

Much of it is standard Nicene Christianity. In a couple of places, he sides with the West rather than the East (Procession of the Spirit, Original Sin). He's Reformed, so I disagree with him on his Predestination paragraph, but that's not a conservative/liberal issue; it's a Reformed vs everyone else issue :) . His paragraph on the Bible is a classic Conservative Evangelical Protestant statement, okay.

What most caught my eye, though, is his paragraph on "Nature and creation". He says: "Since God is sovereign over all things natural and supernatural, it is right to say that God created everything that exists, and this is compatible with the affirmation that all life developed naturally over billions of years by the processes of evolution by random mutations and natural selection." In the 20th century, this was one of the major conservative/liberal divides. Conservatives were supposed to affirm that the earth was young and evolution was false. This was one of my own major struggles in my young adult life, as I was in the process of leaving Evangelicalism. I'm happy that Redeemed Zoomer has reconciled modern science with his faith, but hasn't he taken a step over to the liberal side in doing so?

I think I no longer know what Redeemed Zoomer wants to bring to the mainline denominations. If he de-liberalized us, what exactly would that look like?
 
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Shane R

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I initially had sympathy for the idea, though I thought it naive. I've realized there are many mainline congregations that pay little attention to what their parent denomination does on the national level. These people are chugging along, probably hemmorhaging members, but keeping the doors open and finding small service projects to do. They are often located in communities that have fallen on hard times or that never were much to speak of in the first place. I don't think that's who the Reconquista proponents have in mind.

They are typically city or suburb dwellers. I get the sense that most of them fancy themselves a bit smarter and more erudite than their peers. They are arrogant! They don't know how to be quiet and learn. But worst of all, they have no respect for those who came before. I've asked Redeemed Zoomer how the Millenials can help him and he was at a loss. He doesn't want our help. He is not able to reckon with the idea that we will be the folks in charge in 10 years, not him and his buddies.
 
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Shane R

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I think most of the Reconquista crowd are going to waver in their conservatism or find themselves declined for ordination. The more effective approach may be to concentrate their efforts in para-church work.
 
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jas3

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I think most of the Reconquista crowd are going to waver in their conservatism

Removed from his website's "what we believe" in 2024:

Female pastors​


We understand that the question of women's roles in church leadership is one of great controversy. Because we strive to be united in the common goal of returning the Mainline Churches to orthodoxy and we do not believe this is an essential issue of the faith, we intentionally do not take a stance one way or the other on the question of female pastors. We have high-ranking members of our community who are both for and against the ordination of women, and there are devout, faithful leaders in the Mainline church who have a variety of beliefs on this issue. We respect differing opinions on this issue as long as one's opinion is based on a faithful exegesis of Scripture rather than an imposition of one's own cultural ideals onto the church.

So yeah, so much for it being a "return to orthodoxy" for the mainline denominations.

or find themselves declined for ordination.
Ironically within a few months of his announcement of his plan to go to seminary and be ordained in the PCUSA, the PCUSA began requiring candidates for ordination to be questioned on their beliefs on homosexuality. I don't know if he's going to try to be ordained there anyway but his whole plan seems like it doesn't account for hurdles like this that are trivial for liberal-majority denominations to implement.
 
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The Liturgist

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I support this idea in theory, although the individual man in question I’m unsure about. I’m extremely upset about what happened to the UMC, which has created a condition where I am not comfortable entering the church where I was baptized as an infant (a baptism which at the time of my reception into Orthodoxy, was admitted).

Ironically within a few months of his announcement of his plan to go to seminary and be ordained in the PCUSA, the PCUSA began requiring candidates for ordination to be questioned on their beliefs on homosexuality.

I find that distressing. How can a denomination preach tolerance while being intolerant of traditional Christian viewpoints?
 
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The Liturgist

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I think most of the Reconquista crowd are going to waver in their conservatism or find themselves declined for ordination. The more effective approach may be to concentrate their efforts in para-church work.

If they go about it through ordained ministry, even if they are able to pass themselves off as conforming to the majority opinions during ordination, they might well be deposed or have their career stalled after the fact.

However depending on the denomination, there are other vectors of obtaining influence.

So this is something I can’t oppose, but its a very difficult path. I should know, because of my … experience, of the confessing movement in a denomination which ran a number of advertising spots such as one rather disagreeable one in which a church was depicted with doormen deciding who to admit and not admit, which was such a cheapshot at both traditional churches and traditional members. I believe we should never put a comma where God intended a period (for that matter, regarding some matters, if we are faithful to Scripture, the Holy Apostle St. Paul, in Galatians 1:8-9 and 2 Thessalonians 2:37 requires us to not have open minds and open doors, but if open hearts was defined as a willingness to pray even for those who we disagree with, than that part of the UMC slogan could be accomodated.

On the other hand, I can find no fault with “The Episcopal Church Welcomes You” as a slogan except in the case of some dioceses where that welcome was denied to traditional members of certain parishes who desired to leave, and were locked out of their parishes, and the real estate later sold; this also happened in the UMC, indeed the earliest instance of this happening that I am aware of happened at a UMC parish in suburban Anchorage, Alaska, St. Paul’s UMC, in which the congregation was locked out of a building they had paid for, despite not even having expressed a desire to leave, rather the dispute was over the pastor assigned to them by the bishop of the conference. I think its wrong to lock people out of a parish where that parish was not substantially financed by the denomination, and wrong to lock them out in general anyway, except for causing disruption to the services.

I also am opposed to forcing liturgical changes on people (every major schism among traditional churches has involved forced liturgical changes, such as the 1666 schism Nikonian Schism with the Russian Old Rite Orthodox, which led to various Old Believer sects which have not been reconciled as well as some sects which adopted strange non-Nicene doctrines, such as the Molokans and even more unpleasant groups like the Doukhobors, which were basically 19th century proto-Unitarian Universalists, who immigrated to Canada via money provided by Leo Tolstoy, where they later caused much annoyance by protesting various government policies by marching au naturel, which required the Canadian government to pass indecent exposure legislation (which had previously been unneccessary, perhaps due to the cold climate; @MarkRohfrietsch had you heard of them? they’re mainly out west, in BC, Alberta, Sask, and to a lesser extent the Northwestern US states). Later, even as the Old Believer schism was largely repaired by the canonical ROC allowing Old Rite parishes and other canonical Patriarchates receiving Old Believers we saw similar schisms over the New Calendar in the Eastern Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East (and the impact this had on worship), and over the forced adoption of the 1979 BCP in much of the Episcopal Church (although I was surprised to find there are Episcopal parishes that never adopted it, such as the Anglo Catholic parish of St. John’s in Detroit, which I was stunned to discover was not a Continuing Anglican parish), and most spectacularly, over the Novus Ordo Missae. In all these cases, schism could have been avoided by not mandating the change, for example, in the LCMS, some parishes use the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal, some use the Blue Hymnal of the 1980s (Lutheran Worship), some use the Lutheran Service Book, and I’ve heard of a few that use the Green Hymnal, the Lutheran Book of Worship, which is a cousin to the 1979 BCP.

For my part, I actually like the 1979 BCP other than the lectionary, especially in traditional language forms such as the Anglican Service Book (1994) and suspect that it would have been adopted without causing a controversy if it were made optional (and also if the Episcopal Church had not rocked the boat on ordination; that act had the effect of, as Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal ,wrote in The Orthodox Church, making Anglican-Orthodox dialogue theoretical (since previously there had been several attempts at unity, and unfortunately it hasn’t occurred to any Orthodox hierarchs to talk to the Continuing Anglicans).
 
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If his idealized traditional mainline Protestantism of, say, 100 years ago allowed the decline into liberalism we have today, there is no reason to believe that returning to the status quo of 100 years ago would have a different outcome.
If we could establish what happened roughly 100 years ago that lead to the decline of faith that started about then, then it might be reversible.
 
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The Liturgist

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If we could establish what happened roughly 100 years ago that lead to the decline of faith that started about then, then it might be reversible.

Well it was basically a Modernist-liberal movement which wound up taking hold of the seminaries.
 
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RamiC

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Well it was basically a Modernist-liberal movement which wound up taking hold of the seminaries.
Maybe, but in this country I see WW1 doing some significant damage. Clergy were thin on the ground, demand for their attention, especially for grief over bereavement was immense, and people started looking for help from some new fangled idea called "Spiritualism", queueing up to see sea side entertainment "psychics" and believing explanations from some equally new fangled lot called "psychologists".

Do you have any dates for the Modernist-liberals taking over the seminaries? When was this?
 
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The Liturgist

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Maybe, but in this country I see WW1 doing some significant damage. Clergy were thin on the ground, demand for their attention, especially for grief over bereavement was immense, and people started looking for help from some new fangled idea called "Spiritualism", queueing up to see sea side entertainment "psychics" and believing explanations from some equally new fangled lot called "psychologists".

Do you have any dates for the Modernist-liberals taking over the seminaries? When was this?

The Spiritualists predated WWI by a substantial measure. Modernism likewise, but the dates line up. The key shift we can see in the 1960s, with the failure of the Episcopal Church to depose Bishop James Pike for heresy despite Pike questioning the Trinity and other essential doctrines.

Our traditional Calvinist friend @bbbbbbb in another thread articulated a view of how this unfolded vis a vis “the social Gospel” which I also agree with.
 
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RamiC

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The Spiritualists predated WWI by a substantial measure. Modernism likewise, but the dates line up.
I believe this is the case, in that they emerged well before WW1. However, here in the UK, there was a significant surge of interest in their activities and beliefs during the war.

The key shift we can see in the 1960s, with the failure of the Episcopal Church to depose Bishop James Pike for heresy despite Pike questioning the Trinity and other essential doctrines.

Our traditional Calvinist friend @bbbbbbb in another thread articulated a view of how this unfolded vis a vis “the social Gospel” which I also agree with.
In the 1960's here the Church of England was hit by a rapid increase in appeals for second marriages. This was caused by changes in civil law that liberalised grounds for divorce. The clergy were overwhelmed by a constant supply of requests, when previously they would have only heard maybe one or two such appeals in their whole careers.

The 1960's (and following decades) is also when the child abuse situation within the church was occuring, so there is plenty of harm to faith there. The harm is done already as those things happened, even if public knowledge and the press coverage was much later on.

Thank you for the information, I need to look up this Bishop James Pike. I find the shortages of actual adherance to the beliefs of the faith amongst the clergy really heartbreaking.
 
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The Liturgist

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I believe this is the case, in that they emerged well before WW1. However, here in the UK, there was a significant surge of interest in their activities and beliefs during the war.


In the 1960's here the Church of England was hit by a rapid increase in appeals for second marriages. This was caused by changes in civil law that liberalised grounds for divorce. The clergy were overwhelmed by a constant supply of requests, when previously they would have only heard maybe one or two such appeals in their whole careers.

The 1960's (and following decades) is also when the child abuse situation within the church was occuring, so there is plenty of harm to faith there. The harm is done already as those things happened, even if public knowledge and the press coverage was much later on.

Thank you for the information, I need to look up this Bishop James Pike. I find the shortages of actual adherance to the beliefs of the faith amongst the clergy really heartbreaking.

The situation in the UK is quite different from that in the US because the C of E is an established church and one which only very recently introduced female bishops (the Episcopalians have had female and gay bishops for some time). The C of E and the United Methodist Church both abandoned Scriptural teaching at around the same time (the UMC was the largest of the “seven sisters” and the last holdout in this respect).
 
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RamiC

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The Spiritualists predated WWI by a substantial measure. Modernism likewise, but the dates line up. The key shift we can see in the 1960s, with the failure of the Episcopal Church to depose Bishop James Pike for heresy despite Pike questioning the Trinity and other essential doctrines.

Our traditional Calvinist friend @bbbbbbb in another thread articulated a view of how this unfolded vis a vis “the social Gospel” which I also agree with.
I admit that all I have here is some stuff I found on the internet, but having never hear of James Pike before you mentioned him, I ended up with this - The Tragedy of James Pike and this Pike, Bishop James A. – OCCULT WORLD .

He certainly looks like a person not suitable for the position of a Bishop.
 
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RamiC

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The situation in the UK is quite different from that in the US because the C of E is an established church and one which only very recently introduced female bishops (the Episcopalians have had female and gay bishops for some time). The C of E and the United Methodist Church both abandoned Scriptural teaching at around the same time (the UMC was the largest of the “seven sisters” and the last holdout in this respect).

There seems to be a good simple article explaining your whole point here - Episcopal Church Withdrawal? . I am open to correction if I have not found an accurate report, because I do not live in the USA.
 
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bbbbbbb

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The Spiritualists predated WWI by a substantial measure. Modernism likewise, but the dates line up. The key shift we can see in the 1960s, with the failure of the Episcopal Church to depose Bishop James Pike for heresy despite Pike questioning the Trinity and other essential doctrines.

Our traditional Calvinist friend @bbbbbbb in another thread articulated a view of how this unfolded vis a vis “the social Gospel” which I also agree with.
Thank you for your kind reference. For the sake of brevity, I will not reiterate my previous post. I will say that I am convinced that the liberal churches of all denominations have abandoned the faith once delivered to the saints. I have lost any concept of reversing them to some golden age, which, in reality, is historically absurd. As we all know, there are individual congregations and members who are faithful Christians in virtually all denominations. There are also multiple denominations which embrace just about every permutation of Christian theology. I encourage others to find the denomination and congregation where they can work in unity for the Faith, rather than expend immense energy in a futile effort to turn the dial back in otherwise dead churches.
 
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The Liturgist

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Thank you for your kind reference. For the sake of brevity, I will not reiterate my previous post. I will say that I am convinced that the liberal churches of all denominations have abandoned the faith once delivered to the saints. I have lost any concept of reversing them to some golden age, which, in reality, is historically absurd. As we all know, there are individual congregations and members who are faithful Christians in virtually all denominations. There are also multiple denominations which embrace just about every permutation of Christian theology. I encourage others to find the denomination and congregation where they can work in unity for the Faith, rather than expend immense energy in a futile effort to turn the dial back in otherwise dead churches.

My controversial opinion in favor of a Reconquista is because the people who have changed the direction of the mainline churches have caused real suffering, and are in a position to continue to cause harm as long as they remain in power. If it is possible to remove them, it would be a great act of charity, and might also dissuade others from following in their footsteps.
 
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bbbbbbb

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My controversial opinion in favor of a Reconquista is because the people who have changed the direction of the mainline churches have caused real suffering, and are in a position to continue to cause harm as long as they remain in power. If it is possible to remove them, it would be a great act of charity, and might also dissuade others from following in their footsteps.
I agree with your perspective on the harm caused by liberalism. At this point in time, the liberal denominations are reaping the harvest that has been sown. They are rapidly diminishing in size and influence. It may be within our lifetimes that they may shrink and disappear like the Freemasons and Christian Scientists. Even the Mormons are shrinking now. In the meantime, there is a new generation which seems to be much more interested in historic Christianity than their parents.
 
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