Ellen White--Jesus could have failed, lost His "eternal existence"

tall73 · Jul 4, 2026

Ellen White, who Adventists in their official beliefs claim is inspired, says the following (feel free to read the context, as much as you want):

Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 131.2}

Remember that Christ risked all; tempted like as we are, he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Jesus would have yielded up his life, we may estimate the value of a soul. {GCB December 1, 1895, Art. B, par. 23}

Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour’s head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope. ST June 9, 1898, par. 14

However, the notion that Jesus could have failed in the plan of salvation goes against scripture that indicates God knows the end from the beginning, and will carry out His purpose--the plan of salvation is clearly shown to be God's foreknown purpose which He carries out.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose

Since God inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15), and knows the end from the beginning, how could the plan contain risk as though God did not know the outcome? And since He will accomplish all His purpose, how could it fail?

Wouldn't God know if Jesus was going to fail? Was there really risk that God's plan would not happen?

Risk of failure is something we face as humans because we do not know the future, and cannot accomplish all of our purposes. It could go either way. This was not at all the case with God and with the plan of salvation. Here are scriptures that make clear that the plan of salvation was not in doubt, but was foretold in its particulars:

That Jesus would be silent before Pilate was known. That He would be buried in the tomb of a rich man, that He would be an offering for the sins of others was known:

Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our report?

And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,

And as a root out of dry ground.

He has no form or comeliness;

And when we see Him,

There is no beauty that we should desire Him.

3 He is despised and rejected by men,

A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.

And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;

He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely He has borne our griefs

And carried our sorrows;

Yet we esteemed Him stricken,

Smitten by God, and afflicted.

5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,

He was bruised for our iniquities;

The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,

And by His stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;

We have turned, every one, to his own way;

And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,

Yet He opened not His mouth;

He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,

And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,

So He opened not His mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,

And who will declare His generation?

For He was cut off from the land of the living;

For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

9 And they made His grave with the wicked—

But with the rich at His death,

Because He had done no violence,

Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;

He has put Him to grief.

When You make His soul an offering for sin,

He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,

And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.

By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,

For He shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,

And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,

Because He poured out His soul unto death,

And He was numbered with the transgressors,

And He bore the sin of many,

And made intercession for the transgressors. (NKJV)

Jesus' words on the cross were foretold, and the piercing of His hands and feet, as well as the dividing of clothing by lot.

Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Psa 22:16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet--

Psa 22:17 I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me;

Psa 22:18 they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.

Jesus' place of birth was known:

Mic 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.

Jesus knew the Scriptures testified about the plan of salvation ahead of time:

Luk 24:25 And he said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

Luk 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"

Luk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Peter believed it was foretold, and according to God's purpose:

Acts 2:22-24

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. (NKJV)

1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully,

1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.

Philip believed it was foretold:

Act 8:30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?"

Act 8:31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Act 8:32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this: "Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter and like a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opens not his mouth.

Act 8:33 In his humiliation justice was denied him. Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken away from the earth."

Act 8:34 And the eunuch said to Philip, "About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?"

Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus

Paul believed it was foretold:

Act 13:26 "Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation.

Act 13:27 For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets, which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him.

Act 13:28 And though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked Pilate to have him executed.

Act 13:29 And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead,

Act 13:31 and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people.

Act 13:32 And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers

Paul didn't speak of Jesus possibly failing, but that His death for us was ordained before the ages

1 Corinthians 2:7-8

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

And that it was according to the eternal purpose which God accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ephesians 3:8-12

8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. (NKJV)

And he says that God who cannot lie promised eternal life before time began:

Titus 1:2-3

2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; (NKJV)

James indicates all God's works are known from eternity, including bringing salvation to Israel and the Gentiles

Acts 15:15-18

15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return

And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;

I will rebuild its ruins,

And I will set it up;

17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,

Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,

Says the LORD who does all these things.’

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.

The plan of salvation involved Jesus taking on the nature of a servant, being subject to temptation, and humbling Himself even to death on the cross.

But Jesus could not have failed.

tall73 · Jul 4, 2026

Some highlights from Ellen White's statements:

took the risk of failure and eternal loss

Christ risked all

he staked even his own eternal existence

Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption

Divine wrath would have come upon Christ

Christ and the church would have been without hope

Some highlights from Scripture to compare against:

I am God, and there is none like me declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done

My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose

He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied

O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?

And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself

being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God

having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets

And when they had carried out all that was written of him

which God ordained before the ages for our glory

that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord

in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began

Known to God from eternity are all His works.

tall73 · Jul 4, 2026

An Adventist elaboration upon the subject of the risk of Jesus failing and becoming "omnipotent evil."

The real risk in the redemption plan, besides the loss of man, was the breakup of the Godhead. Had Jesus sinned, He would have been working at cross-purposes with the Spirit and His Father. Omnipotent good would have been pitted against omnipotent evil. What would have happened to the rest of creation? Whom would the unfallen universe see as right? One sin could have sent the Godhead and the universe spinning into cosmic chaos; the proportions of this disaster are staggering. Yet the Godhead was still willing to take this fragmenting risk for the salvation of man.

The Trinity: Is it Biblical? By Pastor Doug Batchelor and Kim Kjaer

Freth · Jul 4, 2026

Jesus was tempted in the wilderness for forty days. One can imagine a much different outcome if Jesus had succumbed to temptation at any time.

tall73 · Jul 4, 2026

Freth said:
Jesus was tempted in the wilderness for forty days. One can imagine a much different outcome if Jesus had succumbed to temptation at any time. The fact that He was tempted shows that there was potential for something dire to happen concerning man and salvation, which hinged on His not sinning.

So when Scripture says that we have

hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began

God could lie?

Are there other promises you consider at risk?

Jesus was tempted. But the plan could not fail. Because God accomplishes His purposes.

tall73 · Jul 4, 2026

1 Peter 1:18-21

8 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (NKJV)

Jesus' work was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Our faith and hope are in God.

Hentenza · Jul 4, 2026

Freth said:
Jesus was tempted in the wilderness for forty days. One can imagine a much different outcome if Jesus had succumbed to temptation at any time.

Impossible.

BobRyan · Jul 4, 2026

“His divinity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible.”
“Deity did not die.”
"Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God?—No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the Man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood. 19LtMs, Lt 280, 1904, par. 9. 7ABC 446.2,, UL 260.2

Matt 4 Christ was tempted in the wilderness (God cannot be tempted James 1:13

Satan tempts Christ to "rig the trial" by using His God nature to solve problems, and so then to fail as our 1 John 2 "example'. Christ refused to fail.

Satan charged God in Job 1 and 2 of "rigging the case of Job" when God declares Job to be a good example of a born again faithful follower.

See how often that charge gets repeated.

===========================
Even so, every now and then Tall73 says something we can all agree with

tall73 said:
1 Peter 1:18-21
8 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (NKJV)

Jesus' work was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Our faith and hope are in God.

true.

tall73 said:
So when Scripture says that we have

hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began

true.

tall73 said:
Ellen White, who Adventists in their official beliefs claim is inspired, says

ahh yes more "Ellen White says..." topics from Tall73

tall73 said:
the following (feel free to read the context, as much as you want):

Indeed you need someone to read context for you quite often

tall73 said:
Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God.

Certainly a few Christians can agree that the cost of our salvation was high. the Son of God becomes Human and dies in our stead as the great Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD 1 John 2:2

Yet as Matt 7 says , the whole world is not going to heaven

tall73 said:
Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 131.2}

we can understand why some think Jesus took a risk, that HE was willing to risk something to save mankind. Others demand that He took no risk at all. "Risked nothing ot gain the world of saved souls" is the gospel some preach.

Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

"emptied Himself" of WHAT?

For "some" all that means nothing, it means God the Son did nothing, He merely showed up in infinite power and wisdom and did the trivial work of following through on His infinite plan. No risk at all.

And "oops" we ourselves have that same attitude in us, we too are not at risk (I suppose that is their thinking)

Phil 2:
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name

"My God My God why have you forsaken Me?" Matt 27:46
"Father if it be possible let this cup pass from Me, nevertheless NOT AS I WILL but THY will be DONE" Matt 26:39-44

38 Then He *said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me.”

Matt 26: shows risk, effort, struggle in the eXTREME

38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”

39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”

40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

42 Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” 43 And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.

44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

He goes back and forth with that same request, no answer from heaven. So He stops doing it and goes to meet the mob, exceedingly sorrowful even unto death.

Does not sound like Matthew is trying to convey "NO STRUGGLE" "NO RISK"

I Do not speak MY OWN words. I Speak ONLY the Words of the Father. John 12:49-50

John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Heb 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

tall73 said:
The plan of salvation involved Jesus taking on the nature of a servant, being subject to temptation, and humbling Himself even to death on the cross.

at least you have that part right

tall73 said:
But Jesus could not have failed.

You and Matthew say things very differently -

You have free will you can do as you wish

Hentenza · Jul 4, 2026

BobRyan said:
I just love all of Tall73's "Ellen White only" focused ideas filled with partial facts, half truths ,

but every now and then he says something we can all agree with

true.

true.

ahh yes more "Ellen White says..." topics from Tall73

Indeed you need someone to read context for you quite often

Certainly a few Christians can agree that the cost of our salvation was high. the Son of God becomes Human and dies in our stead as the great Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD 1 John 2:2

Yet as Matt 7 says , the whole world is not going to heaven

we can understand why some think Jesus took a risk, that HE was willing to risk something to save mankind. Others demand that He took no risk at all. "Risked nothing ot gain the world of saved souls" is the gospel some preach.

Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

"emptied Himself" of WHAT?

For "some" all that means nothing, it means God the Son did nothing, He merely showed up in infinite power and wisdom and did the trivial work of following through on His infinite plan. No risk at all.

And "oops" we ourselves have that same attitude in us, we too are not at risk (I suppose that is their thinking)

Phil 2:
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name

"My God My God why have you forsaken Me?" Matt 27:46
"Father if it be possible let this cup pass from Me, nevertheless NOT AS I WILL but THY will be DONE" Matt 26:39-44

38 Then He *said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me.”

Matt 26: shows risk, effort, struggle in the eXTREME
38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”
39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
42 Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” 43 And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.
44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

He goes back and forth with that same request, no answer from heaven. So He stops doing it and goes to meet the mob, exceedingly sorrowful even unto death.

Does not sound like Matthew is trying to convey "NO STRUGGLE" "NO RISK"

I Do not speak MY OWN words. I Speak ONLY the Words of the Father. John 12:49-50

John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Heb 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

at least you have that part right

You and Matthew say things very differently -

You have free will you can do as you wish

So you believe that the incarnated God could have failed?

The Liturgist · Jul 4, 2026

Freth said:
Jesus was tempted in the wilderness for forty days. One can imagine a much different outcome if Jesus had succumbed to temptation at any time.

Which He could not have, since He was fully God and fully Man united in one person and one hypostasis (underlying reality) without change, confusion, separation or division. The idea that Christ could have succumbed to or even entertained (the Greek term is “coupled”) a temptation - that being the point where one is seriously tempted and fantasizes about the temptation, so if for example a married man is flirted with, if he fantasizes about the woman who flirts with him but does not actually touch her, he has entertained the temptation and thus has already failed according to Christ, at any rate, the idea of that is impossible and in fact blasphemous, which is why there was legitimate outrage from Christians of many denominations to Martin Scorcese’s film “The Last Temptation of the Christ.”

If one actually believes in the doctrine of the Incarnation as described in the Nicene Creed, saying that Christ could have failed is directly equivalent to saying that God is imperfect and lacks omniscience and eternality, since while he did put on our fallen human nature, he did so without change, confusion, separation or division, thus in His humanity, his human will remained fully aligned to His divine will. We know this because St. Paul assures us that Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow, and in Him the fullness of the Godhead dwelled bodily, and since the fullness of the Godhead dwelled bodily within Him, failure would be ontologically impossible.

The Liturgist · Jul 4, 2026

BobRyan said:
I just love all of Tall73's "Ellen White only" focused ideas filled with partial facts, half truths ,

but every now and then he says something we can all agree with

Argumentum ad hominem, a logical fallacy. Why not reply to his argument? If for example your denomination does not regard the document of EGW he quoted to be authentic or to be inspired prophecy, that would be, well, probably the only way to actually refute his claims, unless EGW wrote something else at a later date that negates or dramatically recontextualizes which she wrote here.

Freth · Jul 4, 2026

Matthew 4:1-11 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

He was led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit to be tempted of the devil.
He fasted 40 days and 40 nights while in the wilderness.
He was tempted time and again while in the wilderness. We only have a few examples, there were probably so many more.
Angels did not minister to Him until after the temptation was over.

If Jesus could not sin, then there is no purpose to being led into the wilderness, nor fasting for forty days and nights, nor being tempted. The very word tempted means to test; to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin. There is no reason for angels to minister to Jesus afterward whatsoever in a scenario where a test is pointless because He cannot be tempted.

Scripture tells a different story. (See the post above by @BobRyan) I'm sorry, but it makes no sense. I'm not convinced by any of the arguments thus far. I agree with EGW on this one.

BobRyan · Jul 4, 2026

Hentenza said:
So you believe that the incarnated God could have failed?

I read the Bible. see #8 and read the Bible verses quoted there.

BobRyan · Jul 4, 2026

The Liturgist said:
Argumentum ad hominem, a logical fallacy. Why not reply to his argument?

I changed the first line (the one you quoted) feel free to read the texts in the rest of that post... #8

Hentenza · Jul 4, 2026

BobRyan said:
I read the Bible. see #8 and read the Bible verses quoted there.

I read the Bible too so the question still stands. So you believe that the incarnated God could have failed?

The Liturgist · Jul 4, 2026

Freth said:
Matthew 4:1-11 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

He was led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit to be tempted of the devil.

He fasted 40 days and 40 nights while in the wilderness.

He was tempted time and again while in the wilderness. We only have a few examples, there were probably so many more.

Angels did not minister to Him until after the temptation was over.

If Jesus could not sin, then there is no purpose to being led into the wilderness, nor fasting for forty days and nights, nor being tempted. The very word tempted means to test; to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin. There is no reason for angels to minister to Jesus afterward whatsoever in a scenario where a test is pointless because He cannot be tempted.

Scripture tells a different story. (See the post above by @BobRyan) I'm sorry, but it makes no sense. I'm not convinced by any of the arguments thus far. I agree with EGW on this one.

I don’t think you quite understand.

What we are saying is that it would be impossible for Christ to loose the battle with temptation, however, in putting on our human nature he did have to endure temptation, but being fully God, he would not lose to it. The temptation and the misery of temptation and the need to resist is not made less real by the fact that due to his omniscience and Deity he could not have actually succumbed to it.

The issue is that your approach would require either that the divine Son and Word of God be personally and hypostatically separate from Jesus Christ (hypostasis by the way is a Scriptural term, we can find it in the Greek text of the Bible), which was the argument Nestorius came up with in an attempt to try to justify his violent persecution of members of the Church of Constantinople who venerated the Blessed Virgin Mary as the Theotokos or Mother of God (a scripturally correct practice according to Luke chapter 1, as indeed even John Calvin conceded that technically Mary was Theotokos despite unlike Martin Luther, who venerated the Blessed Virgin Mary, being opposed to her veneration, also Calvin through careful scriptural analysis confirmed the early church was correct in teaching her perpetual virginity), and that Christ ceased to be God when he was born and then presumably reacquired his deity after His crucifixion, which is obviously not the case.

The Liturgist · Jul 4, 2026

BobRyan said:
I read the Bible. see #8 and read the Bible verses quoted there.

Indeed I am well familiar with them because those verses are used to refute the belief that Christ only has one will (Monothelitism), which denies his full humanity.

However it appears you’re using them to deny His full deity, which is a problem, since Christ declares His deity and consubstantiality with the Father in the Gospel According to John and of Christ St. Paul says “he is the same yesterday today and tomorrow” and “in him the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily.”

You’re also ignoring the fact that in part 8 in his prayers Christ does not expect a change in the condition - having perfect foreknowledge of what would occur He demonstrates His deity even as His human nature and will compel him to be unhappy at the prospect of what He is about to endure, which is extremely human and is a necessary consequence of the Incarnation.

We are NOT DENYING THAT CHRIST WAS TEMPTED, as has been said repeatedly, but rather we are merely stating that because of his status as God incarnate it has always been the case, and is immediately evident when we actually read the Gospel, that Satan was wasting his time and was unaware of that fact, since unlike Christ the devil is not omniscient and does not have perfect foreknowledge of the future or other perfections, whereas Christ is perfect, being the uncreated Son of God, who in the Incarnation united our human nature to his divine nature without change, confusion, separation or division, which was an act of kenosis and humiliation, because for an infinite God to put on a finite human nature is the ultimate form of condescension, but in doing that He did not cease to be fully God, at all times, nor did he seek to cheat by separating His divine person or hypostasis from His assumed humanity.

The Liturgist · Jul 4, 2026

reddogs said:
As fully man, yes, or the whole thing was just a sham and a terrible deception to mankind. Christ was made flesh so mankind through His blood could bridge the gulf that sin had created between man and God. Satan says the lie that Christ could not sin to make his life and sacrifice a charade, as the whole purpose of Christ coming was to show that sin could be defeated and overcome. If Christ could not sin, then Satan would be proven right in his accusation.

Now here is something that speaks to the matter which I think you well know..

As a member of the human family He was mortal, but as a God He was the fountain of life to the world. He could, in His divine person, ever have withstood the advances of death, and refused to come under its dominion; but He voluntarily laid down His life, that in so doing He might give life and bring immortality to light. . . . What humility was this! It amazed angels. The tongue can never describe it; the imagination cannot take it in. The eternal Word consented to be made flesh! God became man!--The Review and Herald, July 5, 1887. {7ABC 445.4}

Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible.--The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1113. {7ABC 446.2}

Christ came to the earth, taking humanity, and standing as man's representative, to show in the controversy with Satan that man, as God created him, connected with the Father and the Son, could obey every divine requirement.--The Signs of the Times, June 9, 1898. {7ABC 446.3}

In taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses by which man is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He "knew no sin." He was the Lamb "without blemish and without spot." Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour's head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. . . . We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ.-- The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1131. {7ABC 447.3}

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden.--Ibid., p. 1128. (448) {7ABC 447.4}

The Son of God humbled Himself and took man's nature after the race had wandered four thousand years from Eden, and from their original state of purity and uprightness. Sin had been making its terrible marks upon the race for ages; and physical, mental, and moral degeneracy prevailed throughout the human family. When Adam was assailed by the tempter in Eden he was without the taint of sin. . . . Christ, in the wilderness of temptation, stood in Adam's place to bear the test he failed to endure.--The Review and Herald, July 28, 1874. {7ABC 448.1}

So are you saying the quotes in the OP are incorrect? Because the idea of Christ succumbing to temptation and becoming an evil God is absurd. It also ignores all of the verses throughout Scripture that attest to Divine Immutability (and which attest to Christ also being immutable, for example “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, or tomorrow.”)

God may be omnipotent, but He is also Love, and has revealed Himself to be unchanging, which means that He will never cease to be incapable of evil by definition on an ontological level.

The Liturgist · Jul 4, 2026

prodromos said:
I cannot imagine God succumbing to temptation. You seem to believe in a different God to me.

To say God could succumb to the temptation would be to say God is capable of sinning which is an ontological contradiction and is also blasphemous.

Now to be absolutely clear, I am not accusing anyone in this thread or any historical figure of blasphemy, merely explaining the dangers of saying that Christ our True God might have been defeated by the sinful passions, since this contradicts every Scriptural text attesting to the perfection of God, to His love, to His goodness, to HIs mercy, and to HIs unchangingness and to the deity of Christ and also contradicts what Scripture says about Sin (which is essentially contradicting God, acting in a manner contrary to God’s commandments).

The idea of Christ succumbing to temptation is only possible if one has either an Arian or Unitarian or Nestorian Christology in which the deity of Christ is either denied or separated from His humanity.

This quotation from the OP, if anyone actually wrote it, is specifically Arian, in that it denies by implication that Jesus Christ is fully God and of one essence with the Father:

tall73 said:
Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour’s head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam.

In fact, Divine wrath could not come upon Christ because aside from the fact that He was incapable of succumbing to temptation, as the Divine Logos, all destructive powers of God, which are actually His love when experienced by those who hate God, who experience His love as a consuming fire of torment (for which reason Christ our True God as Pantokrator banishes them to the Outer Darkness at the Last Judgement, as a mercy, so they are not forced to suffer in His presence for all eternity), are under the command of Christ and inseparably so, for in Him the fullness of the Godhead dwells Bodily.

tall73 · Jul 5, 2026

BobRyan said:
Every now and then Tall73 says something we can all agree with

Except you cannot agree with those statement of Scripture and contend that God's plan of salvation could fail.

In response to this

tall73 said:
1 Peter 1:18-21

8 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (NKJV)

Jesus' work was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Our faith and hope are in God.

You said :

BobRyan said:
true.

But if you believed it was foreordained, then you would not say Jesus could fail. Before the world was founded, Jesus was already foreordained to redeem. There is no percentage chance of failure.

So you have to pick. Either you believe it was foreordained, or you think it only might have happened, because Jesus could fail.

But if you say Jesus could fail, you did not get that from Scripture. Scripture says it was foreordained.

And similarly you reply to this:

tall73 said:

So when Scripture says that we have hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began

by saying:

BobRyan said:
true.

But of course if Jesus could fail God would be a liar when He promised eternal life before time began. So you don't believe it is true. You have to choose. Either God doesn't lie, and Jesus couldn't fail, or Jesus could fail.

But if you say Jesus could fail, you didn't get that from Scripture. Scripture says that God promised eternal life and cannot lie.

BobRyan said:
ahh yes more "Ellen White says..." topics from Tall73

Rather, more showing from Scripture that Ellen White does not match up with Scripture.

Jesus could not fail or God would be lying when He promised eternal life, and foreordained redemption.

BobRyan said:
Indeed you need someone to read context for you quite often

No, I only want people to read all of the context of her statements, so they can see how, in context, what Ellen White said contradicts Scripture.

BobRyan said:
Certainly a few Christians can agree that the cost of our salvation was high. the Son of God becomes Human and dies in our stead as the great Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD 1 John 2:2

Never in dispute Bob.

It was not a RISK that Jesus' cost to pay was high. It was a certainty. It was foreordained. It was foretold by the prophets. it was God's purpose before the foundation of the world. It was promised by God who cannot lie before time.

Jesus had a one hundred percent chance of paying this high cost.

Now Bob, it is you, following Ellen White, who is alleging that when God says of Himself that He declares the end from the beginning, and the things not yet done, and says He will accomplish all of His purpose that He MIGHT NOT ACTUALLY accomplish all of His purpose.

And of course that is going directly against Scripture:

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose

BobRyan said:
we can understand why some think Jesus took a risk, that HE was willing to risk something to save mankind. Others demand that He took no risk at all. "Risked nothing ot gain the world of saved souls" is the gospel some preach.

Rather Bob we believe Scripture. It says God accomplishes His purposes. It says He knows the end from the beginning. Meanwhile, Ellen White, and you, say that God might not have accomplished it. It could have gone either way. He could have failed.

Read the Scriptures again Bob:

Acts 2:22-24

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. (NKJV)

God foreknew Bob. He already knew what would happen. But you say, well maybe not, because Jesus could have failed.

The Scriptures say it WAS NOT POSSIBLE that He should be held by death. But you say, well, He could have, and could have lost His eternal existence, and may not have resurrected.

You are contradicting plain Scripture again and again Bob. The whole text indicates God does not lie, the plan was foreknown, and God accomplishes all of His purposes.

BobRyan said:
Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

"emptied Himself" of WHAT?

Bob, was there a RISK that Jesus would empty Himself? NO, there was a complete 100 percent certainty that He would do so, humbling Himself to save us. It was not risk. It could not fail. He was slain from the foundation of the world. And the redemption of the saints was foreordained.

BobRyan said:
For "some" all that means nothing, it means God the Son did nothing, He merely showed up in infinite power and wisdom and did the trivial work of following through on His infinite plan. No risk at all.

satan the creature does NOT have a fair fight against the Creator of all. God carried out His plan, and there was ZERO chance of failure, because God accomplishes His purpose--that is Scripture Bob.

But there was a one hundred percent certainty that Jesus would suffer, be mocked, be tempted, and give His life. That is what love is, not that we loved Him, but that He first loved us.

Your notion that satan had to possibly win is not what makes it love. And it is certainly not Scriptural.

BobRyan said:
And "oops" we ourselves have that same attitude in us, we too are not at risk (I suppose that is their thinking)

You might stick to Scripture, and you would have avoided all of this supposing that goes against what God said.

BobRyan said:
Phil 2:
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name

Was there a CHANCE that this would happen, and a chance it would fail? Or was there CERTAINTY? It was one hundred percent certain that Jesus would humble Himself, and suffer, and die, because God who does not lie promised that eternal life that this brought about. That was why it was love because God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son--not because satan could have conquored, thwarted the plan and Jesus would suffer "wrath".

Her whole scheme is anti-biblical. Scripture says death couldn't hold Him, she says He may have forefeited His eternal existence.

BobRyan said:
"My God My God why have you forsaken Me?" Matt 27:46

Case-in-point Bob! God who foreordained and foreknew told this ahead of time:

Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Was that an accident Bob? Could it have gone another way? It was no accident! It was foreordained!

BobRyan said:
"Father if it be possible let this cup pass from Me, nevertheless NOT AS I WILL but THY will be DONE" Matt 26:39-44

38 Then He *said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me.”

Yes, and might it have gone a different way Bob? Jesus certainly was grieved at the task in His incarnation.

But did you forget to post the text that says He might fail? Because this text doesn't say that. This text shows He is grieved, and sorrowful.

BobRyan said:
He goes back and forth with that same request, no answer from heaven. So He stops doing it and goes to meet the mob, exceedingly sorrowful even unto death.

No answer why Bob? Because it was the plan. And though it pained Him He fulfilled the plan:

John 12:27-28

27 “Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify Your name.”

Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.” (NKJV)

Was He tempted? Of course. Could He fail? No, becuase God foreknew, and foreordained, and promised and doesn't lie.

It is straight-forward Bob. Jesus suffered, was tempted, humbled Himself, but that was not a risk, but a one hundred percent certainty. He came here for that. And it was NECESSARY for it to happen:

Luk 24:25 And he said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

Luk 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"

Luk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

BobRyan said:
Does not sound like Matthew is trying to convey "NO STRUGGLE" "NO RISK"

And of course you conflate struggle with risk. No, Jesus certainly faced temptation and difficulty, and struggle. He did not face risk of failure because God accomplishes His purposes.

1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.

Jesus one hundred percent was going to suffer. But He one hundred percent was going to experience that subsequent glory. The Spirit of Christ indicated it before.

BobRyan said:
Heb 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

Yes Bob, and was there a chance Jesus would not fulfill what God foresaw, or that God would not save Him?

Scripture says death couldn't hold Him. It is Ellen White who says it could .

All of it was predicted, and happened as God purposed.

BobRyan said:
You and Matthew say things very differently -

No Bob, Matthew was very clear about Jesus' future, and it involved no risk of failure:

Matthew 25:31-46

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Jesus would reign on the thone of HIs glory--zero percent chance of Him losing He eternal existence.

32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The saints would inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world--zero percent chance that wrath would have come upon Christ and that both Christ and the saints would be without hope.

35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

the fire is prepared for satan, per Matthew, not possible failure for Christ and triumph for satan.

42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (NKJV)

Matthew says these things will happen. He says the righteous will go into eternal life. The wicked will go into everlasting punishment.

He says nothing about a chance of Christ failing.

And after Jesus wrestled with the task He had to do, what did He say, according to Matthew:

Matthew 26:52-54

53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?” (NKJV)

The Scriptures indicate it must happen that way, and they will be fulfilled. Matthew says nothing about Jesus failing.

Matthew notes that Psalm 22 must be fulfilled, nothing about a risk of it not happening:

Matthew 27:35

35 Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet:

“They divided My garments among them,

And for My clothing they cast lots.” (NKJV)

Neither Matthew, nor Paul, nor Peter, nor James say anything about the possibility of Jesus failing.

James says:

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.

God purposed, He knew, He determined, He foreordained, He promised, and He cannot lie.

But you have said God's plan of salvation could have failed. You did NOT get that from Scripture.

Ellen White--Jesus could have failed, lost His "eternal existence"

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