God justifies the ungodly

fli · Jun 29, 2026

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, NKJV

God justifies the ungodly. Some people who claim to be Christian say most people are ungodly but after they repent and Jesus enters them, He cleans them up and they re no longer act ungodly. I'm sure that this has happened to a lot of people. But the scriptures prove that God justifies people who are acting ungodly and they are in Jesus.

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you. NKJV

Some Corinthians were ruining the Lords supper for the rest of the body. It sounds like there might have been believers pushing ahead of their brethren to get to the wine and bread. Then they would take more than their share. Some had enough wine to get intoxicated while others had none. Because of this behavior voices must have been raised in protest and anger over this selfish gluttony.

Their behavior was a violation of the second commandment of loving our brethren as Jesus loved us. In addition anything we do to a believer we are doing to Jesus. 1Corinthians 11: 30 according to Paul many Corinthians were being disciplined for this and some had went to sleep, meaning they died under discipline and went to heaven. How could such Christians have qualified for entry into heaven?

Romans 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), NKJV

Our salvation is not based on our works. Our salvation is based on our being called.

Were those drunken Corinthians called?

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: NKJV

Paul was writing to the called in the Corinthian church. That does not mean that everyone in the Corinthian Church were called? There may have been many who were not called but those drunks who went to sleep rather than continuing in their sins were of the called. They recognized the voice of Jesus as the voice of God and followed Him to their death under discipline.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, NKJV

I have cited Romans 4:5 again to make this point. If you cannot believe that the drunks were saved when they died under discipline, there is a very good chance that you are not saved. If you cannot believe that God justifies ungodly people, you must believe that your works have something to do with your salvation. If that is the case Romans 4:5 says that you are not believing that Jesus can save you without your help, you are trusting, at least in part, your works to save you.

Maria Billingsley · Jun 29, 2026

fli said:
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, NKJV

God justifies the ungodly. Some people who claim to be Christian say most people are ungodly but after they repent and Jesus enters them, He cleans them up and they re no longer act ungodly. I'm sure that this has happened to a lot of people. But the scriptures prove that God justifies people who are acting ungodly and they are in Jesus.

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you. NKJV

Some Corinthians were ruining the Lords supper for the rest of the body. It sounds like there might have been believers pushing ahead of their brethren to get to the wine and bread. Then they would take more than their share. Some had enough wine to get intoxicated while others had none. Because of this behavior voices must have been raised in protest and anger over this selfish gluttony.

Their behavior was a violation of the second commandment of loving our brethren as Jesus loved us. In addition anything we do to a believer we are doing to Jesus. 1Corinthians 11: 30 according to Paul many Corinthians were being disciplined for this and some had went to sleep, meaning they died under discipline and went to heaven. How could such Christians have qualified for entry into heaven?

Romans 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), NKJV

Our salvation is not based on our works. Our salvation is based on our being called.

Were those drunken Corinthians called?

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: NKJV

Paul was writing to the called in the Corinthian church. That does not mean that everyone in the Corinthian Church were called? There may have been many who were not called but those drunks who went to sleep rather than continuing in their sins were of the called. They recognized the voice of Jesus as the voice of God and followed Him to their death under discipline.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, NKJV

I have cited Romans 4:5 again to make this point. If you cannot believe that the drunks were saved when they died under discipline, there is a very good chance that you are not saved. If you cannot believe that God justifies ungodly people, you must believe that your works have something to do with your salvation. If that is the case Romans 4:5 says that you are not believing that Jesus can save you without your help, you are trusting, at least in part, your works to save you.

Doesn't it simply mean that somebody who doesn't work but believes in Jesus Christ of Nazareth who , in fact , justifies the ungodly are found righteous? I think you're complicating what Paul is trying to say.

Thanks for sharing, be blessed!

SabbathBlessings · Jun 30, 2026

fli said:
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, NKJV

God justifies the ungodly. Some people who claim to be Christian say most people are ungodly but after they repent and Jesus enters them, He cleans them up and they re no longer act ungodly. I'm sure that this has happened to a lot of people. But the scriptures prove that God justifies people who are acting ungodly and they are in Jesus.

Yes, when we accept Jesus Christ as our LORD and Savior we can come to Him justified (just as we are) in our sinful condition, this is the beginning of our journey not the end.

Jesus loves us too much to leave us in that wretched sinful condition and this is where I think a lot of people struggle with.

They love their sins and they do not want to give them up, while claiming Jesus as their Savior. Jesus came to save us from our sins Mat1:21, not in them Heb10:26-30. If we give them to Him, He can help us overcome Mat19:26 it seems people do not allow God to define what sin is or try ways to justify them instead of surrendering fully to Christ Jer 29:13

Some want to stay here..

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

but not want to give this up...

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Jesus wants to free us from sin and live a new life in Him

What Paul speaks of

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Sin is breaking the law of God 1John3:4 God's version James 2:11 Exo31:18 Exo32:16 Deut4:13 Exo20:20 Ecc3:14 - so if we have grown from our justification stage and go on to sanctification in Jesus sin should be painful for us because of what our sins did to Jesus at the Cross and why would anyone who dies to them and living a new life in Christ, want to continue in them as Paul said.

Why we are told

Pro 28:13 He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

Which is what John 3:19-21 speaks of

Our end goal is this, these are the people that moved past justification and went on to sanctification through the faith of Jesus.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the [a]patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And on to reconciliation - one of the last verses in the Bible and nothing after to counter it.

Rev22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

fli · Jun 30, 2026

Maria Billingsley said:
Doesn't it simply mean that somebody who doesn't work but believes in Jesus Christ of Nazareth who , in fact , justifies the ungodly are found righteous? I think you're complicating what Paul is trying to say.

Thanks for sharing, be blessed!

It is not that they are not working, they are doing ungodly things. Those in 1Corinthians 11 who were abusing the Lords supper were getting drunk by drinking more than their share of the wine plus eating a lot of the bread. They did it more than once because they were doing it till they got sick and did it until they died. We do not know all the details but it does seem that it caused other believers to object to their behaviors.

By their behavior they did not show love for their brethren which is one of the 2 commandments we are to keep. By not keeping that commandment, they could not produce any fruit. Yet God forgave their behaviors because they were willing to die to kill the sins of the flesh.

I will list another ungodly person but first the reason I believe he died and went to heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV

God does not impute trespasses, violations of the law, to anyone except to those He disciplines. The only sin that God will send anyone to hell for is not believing in Jesus. John 3:18 There is no condemnation to anyone who believes in Jesus, those who do not believe in Jesus are condemned already. When people die now if they do not believe in Jesus God sends them to hell, if they believe in Jesus they go to heaven to be judged on the Bema seat. God will judge them for rewards because all their sins are covered.

If God names a sin that He is disciplines a person for, that person is a believer. God names the childish behaviors. If God did not name the behavior His children are disciplined for they will never know what they should not do.

Acts 12:21 So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them. 22 And the people kept shouting, "The voice of a god and not of a man!" 23 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died. NKJV

God imputed a sin to Herod and He killed Herod for that sin. Because God imputed a sin to Herod, God must have been disciplining Herod for his childish behavior. God disciplines His children in this world so there is no sin that was not paid for.

The only sin unbelievers are punished for is not believing in Jesus. At the white throne judgment God will reward unbelievers for the charitable acts they did for Jesus' brethren.

Just because we are not judged for our works does not mean we should act like sons of Satan. Jesus suffered for our sins we should show our apparition by showing our love for Jesus.

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. NKJV

If we love Jesus, we will keep His 2 commandments found in 1John. Some who claim to be Christians say we must keep the law. We should keep the moral law and the law of love.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NKJV

We should keep the law out of love for Jesus. If we say we have to keep the law to be saved we are not trusting Jesus to save us.

1 John 3:19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. NKJV

Verse 22 Jesus gives us commands that we are to keep to put our sins to death. We should keep the moral law and the law of love to please Him.

Most of the time I do not hear a voice. I usually feel a strong compulsion that I feel I should do something. When I first came to Jesus I felt that I had to read the bible. When I read the bible it satisfied the compulsion. When I read commentaries it did not satisfy the compulsion, I had to read His word. After that I felt the need to give to His kingdom. I started tithing and now I give 10 percent plus 2.5 percent benevolence to my church plus I give to various charities that bear His name especially a charity that help persecuted Christians. Next I could not pass by anyone with their hand out without doing something for them. Occasionally I have felt like I have heard a voice but most of the time it's a feeling that I need to do something.

Thank you

SabbathBlessings · Jul 1, 2026

In Scripture believe and obey means the same thing

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Its why we need to be careful not to use our own definitions of things like what is sin and not God's 1John3:4 Exo20:20 Exo20:1-17 James2:11 Mat5:19-30 because sin separates us from God. Isa59:2 Heb10:26-30 and God is trying to reconcile us back to Him Rev14:12 Rev22:14.

Jesus Himself indicates a people who believe in Him at His Second Coming, those who say Lord Lord, but did not do (obey) His will and that outcome Mat7:21-23

If we love God with all our heart, mind and soul, why not do what He says how to love Him Exo20:6 John14:15 John15:10 1John5:3. Its like if we tell our spouse to do this if you love me, but we do everything else but what they asked, is that really love. The law is kept as a result of our salvation in Jesus Christ and we should delight to do His good will Psa40:8.

fli · Jul 1, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
In Scripture believe and obey means the same thing

According to my NKJV with Strong's numbers, you are wrong. Please cite your reference.

obey NT 5219 from NT:5259 and NT:191; To hear under (as a subordinate) to listen attentively; by implication, to heed or conform to a command or authority:

believe NT 4100 from NT:4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing)

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NKJV

SabbathBlessings · Jul 1, 2026

fli said:
According to my NKJV with Strong's numbers, you are wrong. Please cite your reference.

obey NT 5219 from NT:5259 and NT:191; To hear under (as a subordinate) to listen attentively; by implication, to heed or conform to a command or authority:

believe NT 4100 from NT:4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing)

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NKJV

Sure...its already provided and in the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

ἀπειθέω apeithéō, ap-i-theh'-o; from G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):—not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

How can one believe in Jesus but not believe what He says. That's called unbelief, disobedience -anyone can say Lord Lord, God is looking for those who have faith in His words to do them. James1:22 Jesus taught people draw near Him with their mouth, in words, but their heart is far from Him and their worship to Him is in vain because they laid aside something God said to keep (obey) if we love Him Mat15:3-14 Exo20:6 Exo20:1-17

The Bible uses unbelief, disobedience, rebellion and sin as all interchangeable Heb3:7-19

Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was [j]founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it [k]fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

fli · Jul 1, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
Sure...its already provided and in the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

You said that believe and obey meant the same thing. They do not. You cite John3:36 anf I will cite another translation.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NKJV

I that verse the word translated does not believe is the word NT 544 which can be translated disobedient or unbelieving. Now as to the drunks being disobedient.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. NKJV

Above is an example of the options Jesus gives to those whom He convicts. He told Jezebel to repent, or He would throw her on a sickbed resulting in great tribulation resulting in death. We do not know how she chose. If she chose to take the deathbed she would have died under discipline in Jesus and went to heaven. If she loved the world more than Jesus, her hope would be to keep her worldly pleasures, losing hope in Jesus saving her. If one loses hope in Jesus, they have lost their saving faith. So if she had obeyed Jesus and taken the sickbed she would have went to heaven.

Now to the drunk Corinthians,

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. NKJV

We see that Jesusn offered them same choices as Jezebel. They could repent and put their sin to death through the Spirit. Or Jesus would make them sick resulting in their going to sleep, Paul's way of saying a Christian has died. When a person dies under discipline they die in Jesus. Every Christian who dies in Jesus dies with no condemnation. Their judgment for sin was when Jesus died and they have His righteousness. So, you see the drunk Corinthians were obedient to Jesus, they let Him kill them physically to put their sin to death.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 1, 2026

fli said:
You said that believe and obey meant the same thing. They do not. You cite John3:36 anf I will cite another translation.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NKJV

I that verse the word translated does not believe is the word NT 544 which can be translated disobedient or unbelieving. Now as to the drunks being disobedient.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. NKJV

Above is an example of the options Jesus gives to those whom He convicts. He told Jezebel to repent, or He would throw her on a sickbed resulting in great tribulation resulting in death. We do not know how she chose. If she chose to take the deathbed she would have died under discipline in Jesus and went to heaven. If she loved the world more than Jesus, her hope would be to keep her worldly pleasures, losing hope in Jesus saving her. If one loses hope in Jesus, they have lost their saving faith. So if she had obeyed Jesus and taken the sickbed she would have went to heaven.

Now to the drunk Corinthians,

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. NKJV

We see that Jesusn offered them same choices as Jezebel. They could repent and put their sin to death through the Spirit. Or Jesus would make them sick resulting in their going to sleep, Paul's way of saying a Christian has died. When a person dies under discipline they die in Jesus. Every Christian who dies in Jesus dies with no condemnation. Their judgment for sin was when Jesus died and they have His righteousness. So, you see the drunk Corinthians were obedient to Jesus, they let Him kill them physically to put their sin to death.

I showed you in the Strong's it means the same thing- I also gave you examples by Jesus that belief in His words that do not lead to action is the path that leads in the wrong direction.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

ἀπειθέω apeithéō, ap-i-theh'-o; from G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):—not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

Repenting from sin is something different. If we do not even believe God's words to define sin, we may end up covering our sins Pro28:13 which is not a good spot to be in when Jesus comes Heb10:26-30 Mat7:21-23

Not only is this biblical its common sense, if we truly are serving God and loving Him with all our heart, mind and soul why would our belief in Him not transform us by His sayings, instead of just hearing them and think its for "other people" when He said they are for "whoever".

Its like me saying to my earthy dad- I hear your rules I believe in you but not enough to actually do what you say, I know better, that's not belief, that's unbelief. Its nonsensical and yet millions of people teach and believe this doctrine, despite Jesus saying that path leads to destruction Luke6:46-49 Mat7:21-23 Heb10:26-30 Mat15:3-14 instead of the one He told us to take Mat 7:13-14, 21 Rev14:12 that leads to reconciliation Rev22:14

fli · Jul 1, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
I showed you in the Strong's it means the same thing- I also gave you examples by Jesus that belief in His words that do not lead to action is the path that leads in the wrong direction.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

ἀπειθέω apeithéō, ap-i-theh'-o; from G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):—not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

Just prior to the underlined part it states not believe and after the underlined part it states unbelieving. I proved by 2 examples how Jesus convicts His believers. He will tell them to repent of the behavior or He will make them sick ending in physical death if they do not repent. In Corinth some were sick and some had gone to sleep.

2 Samuel 12:7 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! Thus says the Lord God of Israel: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 9 Why have you despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.' 11 Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.'" 13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." And Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." NKJV

If David had not repented, he would have died physically and gone to paradise. God gave Him the same options as He did those in the NT. Since God had made him king and the father of the messiah David had been given much, so in addition David's children would suffer.

1 John 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

Because the Corinthians had obeyed His first Commandment, they kept believing in Jesus. Because they were being disciplined for the second commandment they had paid the price for that disobedience, they went to sleep instead of dying. They were obedient to Jesus.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 1, 2026

fli said:
Just prior to the underlined part it states not believe and after the underlined part it states unbelieving.

I showed you by Stongs it means the same thing. Why many of the word for word translations use them interchangeably. Its what the literal Greek translates to John 3:36 Greek Text Analysis. We see this in other places in the Bible as well as I had previously already mentioned.

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

New American Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

NASB 1995
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

NASB 1977
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

fli said:
I proved by 2 examples how Jesus convicts His believers. He will tell them to repent of the behavior or He will make them sick ending in physical death if they do not repent. In Corinth some were sick and some had gone to sleep.

I showed you by Scripture Jesus saying to hear all of My sayings, and do them not just some. Luke 6:46-29

Repenting is from sin, sin is breaking the law of God 1John3:4 James 2:11 unbelief to His words shows a lack of faith which is also sin. Rom14:23

fli said:
2 Samuel 12:7 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! Thus says the Lord God of Israel: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 9 Why have you despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.' 11 Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.'" 13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." And Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." NKJV

If David had not repented, he would have died physically and gone to paradise. God gave Him the same options as He did those in the NT. Since God had made him king and the father of the messiah David had been given much, so in addition David's children would suffer.

1 John 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

Because the Corinthians had obeyed His first Commandment, they kept believing in Jesus. Because they were being disciplined for the second commandment they had paid the price for that disobedience, they went to sleep instead of dying. They were obedient to Jesus.

Repenting and turning from sin works together with faith, obedience and belief Rom3:31 not in opposition.

But even by your own Scripture you provide, it shows belief is not merely I believe, it leads to action.

Jesus has a lot more than one commandment, you are leaving out all of the other commandments Jesus taught. Mat 15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 Mat5:19-30 Mat19:17-19 Mat 22:36-40 quoting OT etc.

Believing in Jesus means believing in all of His sayings, teachings.

Including this one on instruction of how mankind should live- quoting OT, because God does not change.

Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

While we are free to believe as we wish, I would consider what Jesus taught about what we teach, He never taught us to keep 1 commandment and ignore all of the others Mat5:19 why there is an S at the end of this.

fli · Jul 1, 2026

Matthew 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." NKJV

Jesus came to save people from their sins. Saving from our sins means we are still sinning and God has saved us from the consequences of our sins. If God had made us sinless He would have had to kill the flesh and let us live on earth as a spirit being. As a spirit being with eternal life there would not be any faith even in the unbelievers as they would clearly see believers never died. It was faith in the OT and it would be faith in the NT. God would save us while we were still sinning.

Just how did God go about saving us from our sins?

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. NKJV

God condemned sin in our flesh as long as we walked according to the Spirit. Jesus saved us from the sins of our flesh by condemning the sins in our flesh. As long as we stay in the Spirit of Jesus God has condemned the sins in our flesh. Before we were a spirit condemning sin in the flesh condemned us as we were flesh. Now since we are a spirit being the flesh may be condemned while we, the new spirit man is not condemned. Also if our sin in the flesh is condemned the law of sin and death is satisfied and we will not die physically but our flesh will still age and die because of sin. If we ever quit staying in the Spirit, or if we get to the place where we can no longer stay in the Spirit, get senile or incapacitated or to elderly to obey, we will die physically if we are not able to follow the voice of Jesus.

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." NKJV

When Jesus entered into our bodies He also created a new spirit man within us. In the heart of the new spirit man Jesus took up residence. He also gave us the mind of Jesus. We have to obey the voice of Jesus, from His mind, to stay in the Spirit. As long as we stay in the spirit of Jesus the new spirit man is sin free and the sin of our flesh is condemned.

2 Corinthians 5:12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV

Verse 15 God expects everyone in the world to live for Jesus. Verse 19 in the new covenant God does not impute sin to anyone. John 16:8-11 everyone is in sin if they do not believe in Jesus. Therefore, the only sin that will send someone to hell is not believing in Jesus. If God does impute sin to someone in the NC they must be under discipline in Jesus as God cannot discipline someone to change behavior unless He tells them, and other believers, the behavior to change.

Because God has condemned sin in the believer's flesh, they cannot sin as long as they believe in Jesus.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 1, 2026

fli said:
Because God has condemned sin in the believer's flesh, they cannot sin as long as they believe in Jesus.

Just curious so I better understand your view, are you saying if someone is breaking the commandment to thou shalt not lie for example, and does not repent for this sin, nor change their ways, its no longer a sin because they believe in Jesus?

fli · Jul 1, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
Just curious so I better understand your view, are you saying if someone is breaking the commandment to thou shalt not lie for example, and does not repent for this sin, nor change their ways, its no longer a sin because they believe in Jesus?

1 John 3:5 I am saying there is no sin in Jesus. God treats sin in Jesus as a childish misbehavior. He will discipline to make them change the behavior. If they die under discipline they have died in Jesus. John 10:4 His sheep follow His voice some of them to death under discipline the point is they follow His voice in obedience.

Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." NKJV

Even His sheep should do things to ensure their salvation. By obeying His saying out of love, they lay up treasure in Heaven and where their treasure is there their heart will be.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. NKJV

Believers can build with wood, straw and hay (bad behavior) or with precious material (good works). The only works that will follow a believer into heaven are the good works.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 1, 2026

fli said:
1 John 3:5 I am saying there is no sin in Jesus. God treats sin in Jesus as a childish misbehavior. He will discipline to make them change the behavior. If they die under discipline they have died in Jesus. John 10:4 His sheep follow His voice some of them to death under discipline the point is they follow His voice in obedience.

Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." NKJV

Even His sheep should do things to ensure their salvation. By obeying His saying out of love, they lay up treasure in Heaven and where their treasure is there their heart will be.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. NKJV

Believers can build with wood, straw and hay (bad behavior) or with precious material (good works). The only works that will follow a believer into heaven are the good works.

Ok, you didn't answer the question.

So again, if one claims to believe in Jesus and they steal something and does not repent, does not try to turn from their sin, but because they believe in Jesus are they sinning when taking something that does not belong to them?

The verses you quoted are a result from salvation, but you previously said the only sin is not believing in Jesus, which is why I asked you this question if someone steals or lies and does not repent but believes in the name Jesus Christ and believes in Him is he sinning. Please just answer yes or no and than if you wish to provide Scripture to support your assessment.

What you posted leads me to believe according to the Scriptures you posted that if we are doing these things, breaking God's laws it is sin, so there is more to sin than not believing in Jesus.

fli · Jul 1, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
Ok, you didn't answer the question.

So again, if one claims to believe in Jesus and they steal something and does not repent, does not try to turn from their sin, but because they believe in Jesus are they sinning when taking something that does not belong to them?

The verses you quoted are a result from salvation, but you previously said the only sin is not believing in Jesus, which is why I asked you this question if someone steals or lies and does not repent but believes in the name Jesus Christ and believes in Him is he sinning. Please just answer yes or no and than if you wish to provide Scripture to support your assessment.

What you posted leads me to believe according to the Scriptures you posted that if we are doing these things, breaking God's laws it is sin, so there is more to sin than not believing in Jesus.

Yes, they still sin but if God does not impute sin to believers and according to God, we do not sin, He is the final judge of who is a sinner. Even though God does not impute sin to someone does not make them righteous.

Romans 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: NKJV

God imputes righteousness to everyone in Jesus. That righteousness is apart from works. That means works have nothing to do with their righteous.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. NKJV

We who have believed in Jesus have the righteousness of Jesus. therefore, since Jesus never sinned those who have faith in Jesus have His righteousness and as far as God is concerned since He forgave their sins and sins in Him are dealt with through discipline, believers never sinned. So, to answer your question, yes, we sin, but according to God no we do not sin as long as we believe in Jesus.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 1, 2026

fli said:
Yes, they still sin but if God does not impute sin to believers and according to God, we do not sin, He is the final judge of who is a sinner. Even though God does not impute sin to someone does not make them righteous.

Romans 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: NKJV

God imputes righteousness to everyone in Jesus. That righteousness is apart from works. That means works have nothing to do with their righteous.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. NKJV

We who have believed in Jesus have the righteousness of Jesus. therefore, since Jesus never sinned those who have faith in Jesus have His righteousness and as far as God is concerned since He forgave their sins and sins in Him are dealt with through discipline, believers never sinned. So, to answer your question, yes, we sin, but according to God no we do not sin as long as we believe in Jesus.

So you're saying its sin, but God does not impute sin because they believe in Him.

So basically man can do anything they want, live like the devil, but because they believe in Jesus He doesn't impute their sin, no repenting needed, no change of heart needed, no going and sinning no more needed, just believe and keep doing what you're doing and He will impute His righteousness. I think this is a huge misunderstanding of God's word.

I do not believe the verses you quote says its okay to break God's law and sin. Or that we can sin and regardless we are covered by God's righteousness as long as we believe.

Rom2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

John8:34 “Jesus replied, ‘Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.’”

1 John3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

Rom6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Heb10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Mat7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

The Scripture speaks of a people who overcomes because we are not saved in our sins Mat1:21, we are saved from our sins. We should be crucifying the old man and walking in newness with Christ. Rom6:1-4 If we sin, which is breaking the law of God - God's version 1John3:4 James2:11 we are not without hope, we can go to Jesus and repent which means a change of our mind and direction and ask His help in overcoming and through Christ we can do this. John10:4-10 Mat19:26 Rev14:12

fli · Jul 1, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
So you're saying its sin, but God does not impute sin because they believe in Him.

So basically man can do anything they want, live like the devil, but because they believe in Jesus He doesn't impute their sin, no repenting needed, no change of heart needed, no going and sinning no more needed, just believe and keep doing what you're doing and He will impute His righteousness. I think this is a huge misunderstanding of God's word.

I cited scriptures all the way. You do not think that God will discipline those acting like the devil. If they love sin that much, they will never make it in Jesus as they love they world too much.

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NKJV

First of all, the only people who get past the first time Jesus convicts them are those with a spiritual mind.

Romans 7:25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. NKJV

That is how Paul defined his spiritual mind. He wanted to obey God's laws but in Romans 7: 14 we are sold under sin. That is the way God made everyone made of flesh. That to me means we are slaves to sin. Therefore, even Paul served the law of sin with his flesh. The only people with a spiritual mind are the elect.

SabbathBlessings said:
The verses you quoted are not teaching this. This seems like the path Jesus warned about...

Heb10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Since God does not impute sin to the world and the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin because they do not believe in Jesus, the only way to sin willfully is to exit the Spirit of Jesus.

SabbathBlessings said:
Mat7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' NKJV

True believers in Jesus would never cite works to get into heaven. They believe God when He says works have nothing works have nothing to do with their salvation, they trust their faith in Jesus to get them into heaven. They do their works because they love Jesus. Those who do works because they believe they have to do works will cite their works.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. NKJV

Jesus' Spirit is the evidence of their ticket into heaven.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 1, 2026

fli said:
I cited scriptures all the way. You do not think that God will discipline those acting like the devil. If they love sin that much, they will never make it in Jesus as they love they world too much.

So there is more to it than just believing in Jesus, which is the point I have been trying to make all along from the Scriptures I shared.

As I stated in my first post in this thread that is just the beginning. We can come to Christ just as we are (justified) in our sinful condition, but Jesus loves us too much to leave us in that condition. Sadly many never take the next step to sanctification, because some do not want to give up their sins John3:19-21 even through many believe in Jesus, and want all of His blessings, but on their terms, not God's Isa56:2 they want to serve the LORD on their terms, not God's Isa 56:6 they want to live how they wish to, not how Jesus told us to Mat4:4. This is actually the same story in the Bible just on repeat. Do you really think all of the people who God led out of Egypt and performed miracle after miracle, did not believe in Him? They did, but never wanted to change their ways and obey God the way He asked and many never received their inheritance -a land full of milk and honey, their promise land because they disobeyed Eze20:15-16 we are told in the NT not to harden our hearts and rebel as they did Heb3:7-19 Eze20:13 and follow in their same example of disobedience lest we fall too Heb4:11

fli · Jul 2, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
So there is more to it than just believing in Jesus, which is the point I have been trying to make all along from the Scriptures I shared.

As I stated in my first post in this thread that is just the beginning. We can come to Christ just as we are (justified) in our sinful condition, but Jesus loves us too much to leave us in that condition. Sadly many never take the next step to sanctification, because some do not want to give up their sins John3:19-21 even through many believe in Jesus, and want all of His blessings, but on their terms, not God's Isa56:2 they want to serve the LORD on their terms, not God's Isa 56:6 they want to live how they wish to, not how Jesus told us to Mat4:4. This is actually the same story in the Bible just on repeat. Do you really think all of the people who God led out of Egypt and performed miracle after miracle, did not believe in Him? They did, but never wanted to change their ways and obey God the way He asked and many never received their inheritance -a land full of milk and honey, their promise land because they disobeyed Eze20:15-16 we are told in the NT not to harden our hearts and rebel as they did Heb3:7-19 Eze20:13 and follow in their same example of disobedience lest we fall too Heb4:11

Yes, Jesus does not leave us as we are, and the process is called sanctification. That process depends on one thing.

Romans 7:25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. NKJV

That process depends on the person having a spiritual mind. Those people who have a spiritual mind recognize the voice of Jesus as being the voice of God, note even in Paul's definition he admitted that in the flesh he obeys the law of sin. That means even Paul, who had a lot more faith than most of today's believers had his struggles with sin.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. NKJV

All mankind was made by God to be addicted to sin. As long as we are in the flesh, we will be in sin even if the sins are not obvious.

Romans 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), NKJV

Gods elect are the ones that God has chosen to be His children, that means they had what it takes to be sanctified. I want you to notice they were not chosen because of their righteous works, God exercised His authority to sanctify who he wants without regard to their works. He can do this because in Jesus there is no sin. That does not mean that everyone in Jesus does not sin. It means that He condemns the sins of the flesh keeping them without sin.

Romans 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: NKJV

To those who pass the sanctification process God imputes righteousness to them. God has exercised His authority to impute righteousness without regard to their works. God imputed righteous even if they were acting ungodly.

John 10:4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. NKJV

Jesus' sheep know His voice; this is the key ingredient in their being disciplined. Everyone who had a spiritual mind became one of His sheep.

2 Timothy 2:11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. NKJV

The sanctification process is completed when we die physically in the Spirit of Jesus. God could have called us home anytime after we believed because we were heaven ready at anytime we are in Jesus. Anyone who dies under discipline has put to death the sins of the flesh through the Spirit. When the flesh dies the sins of the flesh die as the spirit man is the one who makes it to heaven. So when God killed the drunks Jesus had made them righteous. Jesus had given them a new spirit man endowed with the gifts of His love, joy and peace. Jesus loved with unconditional love. His joy was pleasing His Father and having peace with man and God.

James has asked if faith without works can save us?

2 Timothy 2:11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. NKJV

The work Jesus did give us hope in Jesus which gave us saving faith. Jesus did all the works necessary to save us. Saving faith has nothing to do with our works it has to do with our hope in Jesus. The more works we do the stronger our faith will become. But the elect will have enough love for Jesus to keep their saving faith without works. So the answer to James' question is yes, faith without works can save us. If they are of the elect even if their faith fails, their love for Jesus will keep Jesus faithful as He cannot deny Himself. That is how the elect drunk Corinthians made it to heaven.

Deuteronomy 6:5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. NKJV

Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. NKJV

Above is two commandments in the law. Any righteous act, law or commandment of God falls under one of those commandments. Any sin that one can commit is a violation of one of those commandments. So, if God says that salvation is not of works of the law, He is saying salvation is not by doing either of those commandments.

In this post so far I have cited 2 scriptures that has stated that works have nothing to do with our salvation. Romans 4:2, 9: 30, Galatians 2: 16, Ephesians 2:9, 2Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5. If you come back and cite or say anything about sins keeping one from being saved, I will ignore you from now on.

God justifies the ungodly

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