Do you eat pork?

The Liturgist said:

Revelation 18:2 and 21:22 have no relevance to the Roman Catholic Church, contrary to the teachings of some Restorationist denominations - they say literally nothing about the Roman Catholic Church. Rather they are a commentary on sinful wordliness.

As for Isaiah 66:16, the New Testament makes it explicitly clear, contra what @Xeno.of.athens is asserting, that the consumption of pork is permissible (since the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 expressly said that all Gentile Christians were prohibited from eating is blood and the food of things strangled).

Also your argument that eating pork is damnatory is particularly offensive in light of the persecution of Coptic Orthodox Christians in Muqattam, an impoverished suburb of Cairo. They are forced to subside herding swine that feed on the garbage dumped from Cairo, and when swine flu affected nearby countries, the Egyptian government slaughtered their livestock despite no evidence of infection, leading to some starving (since Muslims also erroneously abhor pork consumption).

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Thats one way of looking it.

The way I look at it is how Jesus said mankind is to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Mat4:4

God spoke and said what is going to happen on Judgement day at His Second Coming and eating swine is still an abomination to Him. Paul the creation would never go against what God said. We are told many misunderstand Paul to their own destruction 2Peter3:16 and I would say this seems to be one of those instances . . .

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.
17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
[a]After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

If one chooses not to take what the LORD said seriously, that's always a choice, it’s a choice many people made before us, so nothing new. It’s why God tells us ahead of time what is going to happen in hopes we will make better decisions. We have free will to accept His guidance or not, but God will always make good on what He says.

Xeno.of.athens said:

I must say that such is not my experience nor is it my belief. It was @SabbathBlessings who wrote "There must be a lot of ill informed priest and bishops and Catholic encyclopedias and Revs writing Catechism of Catholic Doctrine then ...". I found that claim somewhat offensive.

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I wasn't trying to be, you said the quotes were ill informed and claimed them to be protestant, but they were all priests, bishops etc who teach Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, so if you're saying the quotes are ill informed than its those who made the quotes coming from within the Catholic church all saying the same thing.

Xeno.of.athens said:

I did not say, "they are protestant", and what on earth is "Catechism of Catholic Doctrine"? I have never heard of such a thing.

There is no official Catholic document titled Catechism of Catholic Doctrine; the Church recognises only two universal catechisms—the Roman Catechism of Trent and the modern Catechism of the Catholic Church—while other catechisms are merely local or private works without magisterial authority, so if someone uses that title they are either referring informally to the CCC or to a non‑authoritative publication.

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In regards to the quotes I posted

Oh dear, more ill-informed protestant propaganda derived from some source that is not dogma is not official and is not especially reliable.

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I'm limited on time right now, but I can post more background on the posts with the original sources and background who quoted them. In addition, we can look at the Catechism as well on this topic.

SabbathBlessings said:

Thats one way of looking it.

The way I look at it is how Jesus said mankind is to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Mat4:4

God spoke and said what is going to happen on Judgement day at His Second Coming and eating swine is still an abomination to Him. Paul the creation would never go against what God said. We are told many misunderstand Paul to their own destruction 2Peter3:16 and I would say this seems to be one of those instances . . .

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.
17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
[a]After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

If one chooses not to take what the LORD said seriously, that's always a choice, it’s a choice many people made before us, so nothing new. It’s why God tells us ahead of time what is going to happen in hopes we will make better decisions. We have free will to accept His guidance or not, but God will always make good on what He says.

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Read on in Isaiah 66. He is clearly speaking of the Jews under the Old Covenant.

prodromos said:

Read on in Isaiah 66. He is clearly speaking of the Jews under the Old Covenant.

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No, the New Heaven and New Earth is future. Judgment for all is future. John12:48 God does not have two salvations, one for Jews one for everyone else. God shows no partiality Rom2:11

Xeno.of.athens said:

I am wondering how you might react to this: "Fellow Adventists, it is downright embarrassing to continue our campaign against Roman Catholics, much less to lead with that in our evangelism, just because a Victorian woman copied those prejudices from someone 150-some years ago. As someone said in a comment, “Passing out The Great Controversy is hate speech!”"

It is from Are Adventists Anti-Catholic Bigots? Officially, Yes! – Adventist Today which is, "Adventist Today represents a worldwide family of believers in Christ’s redemptive grace, who believe in the freedom to explore new understandings of God without censure through accessible, independent journalism. Because we love the Seventh-day Adventist church and want it to be the best that it can be, we encourage friendly, constructive accountability, report factually, respect both science and Scripture, and encourage thoughtful conversation. We are appreciative of our shared Adventist heritage, and seek to be a constructive, innovative voice in pursuit of spiritual and congregational health.", found at Adventist Today

I am curious to know how those quoting from or supporting quotes from SDA sources of past times, which propagate negative views of Catholicism, feel about repeating old propaganda against the Catholic Church?

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You seem to not be understanding, I did not quote SDA's or protestants, I quoted Catholic priests, bishops, Catholic's own publications about what they claimed they did with God's times and laws without any Scripture authority, just as it was predicted would happen Dan7:25. Someone changed God's Sabbath and it wasn't God. What God does is forever, nothing can be added, nothing can be taken away, our only correct response is to fear God and keep His commandments Ecc3:14 Ecc12:13-14 Exo20:1-20 Rev14:6-12 and not have our fear of God through mans traditions Isa 29:13 something Jesus condemned as making the word of God void, our worship to Him in vain Mat15:3-14

I know this ruffles some feathers and its understandable, but better now, and hopefully change our positions and put God first above everything else, before our decisions are sealed and can't be changed Rev22:11

Xeno.of.athens said:

I did not say, "they are protestant", and what on earth is "Catechism of Catholic Doctrine"? I have never heard of such a thing.

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It's a reference to "Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine", which SabbathBlessing previously offered a quote from saying "We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday". This work is a minor catechism from the early 20th century; so minor, in fact, that the only the only printing of it available on WorldCat is a 1995 reprint produced by TEACH Services, a Seventh Day Adventist company who I guess reprinted it because Seventh Day Adventists are so enamored with repeating that quote that they wanted to make the work more available. So we're talking about a minor catechism that would be entirely forgotten if not for the fact it appears some Seventh Day Adventist happened to pick up a copy and see that quote, and then it got repeated over and over by a whole lot of other Seventh Day Adventists up until the present.

As I noted before, such quotes from Catholic sources about the "Catholic Church" making any such change, as well explained by this Protestant, are normally just them talking about the apostles doing it (anything the apostles did is attributed to the Catholic Church by the Roman Catholic Church).

However, it should be noted that the author of this "Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine"--Peter Geiermann--in another instructional work of his (and one that was significantly more used, as shown by original printings being in 143 libraries) went into a little more depth and better clarified his position, where he said:

From the beginning of the world till after the introduction of Christianity the Sabbath was specially sacred to God's people. The first Christians, besides, kept Sunday holy also, because on that day the Saviour rose from the dead, and the Holy Ghost came down upon the Apostles. Later on, however, a dispute arose between the Jewish and the Gentile converts respecting the day which must be kept holy. Many of the Jewish converts maintained that all converts were bound by the entire law of Moses. To remove this erroneous impression, and to free her children from the ceremonial law of Moses, the Church decreed in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336) that all Catholics should keep holy Sunday as "the Lord's day" (Apoc. i. 10), as had been done since Apostolic times (Acts xx. 7 ; 1 Cor. xvi. 2).

While he is still a bit confusing on some points (and claims the Council of Laodicea was in 336 when it is more normally dated to the 360's), Geiermann clearly asserts that keeping Sunday holy was done since apostolic times and the practice is found in the Bible, with the Council of Laodicea simply confirming prior apostolic practice.

Xeno.of.athens said:

There is no official Catholic document titled Catechism of Catholic Doctrine; the Church recognises only two universal catechisms—the Roman Catechism of Trent and the modern Catechism of the Catholic Church—while other catechisms are merely local or private works without magisterial authority, so if someone uses that title they are either referring informally to the CCC or to a non‑authoritative publication.

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This one would seem to fall under "local".

The question-and-answer appears in Rev. Peter Geiermann's The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

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The quote itself is not an SDA fabrication.

Long before Seventh-day Adventists existed, Catholic writers openly argued that Sunday observance rests on Church authority rather than on an explicit biblical command. Similar statements can be found in:

• A Doctrinal Catechism
• The Faith of Our Fathers
• various Catholic apologetic works from the 19th and early 20th centuries
• These works commonly argue that the Church changed the day of public worship from Saturday to Sunday and that this demonstrates the Church's authority.

1. The SDA argument does not stand or fall on that one catechism.
   Even if The Convert's Catechism had never existed, Adventists would still point to:
   • The absence of a biblical command changing the Sabbath to Sunday.
   • Historical evidence that Sunday observance became dominant gradually in the early centuries of Christianity.
   • Catholic claims that Church authority played a role in establishing Sunday observance.
2. The WorldCat point is largely irrelevant.
   Whether a book is widely held today does not determine whether its contents accurately represented a Catholic position at the time. Many older catechisms have few surviving copies. The important question is whether the teaching expressed was an isolated opinion or reflected a broader Catholic understanding.

This is just one quote of many...

Xeno.of.athens said:

How about you try doing your research in official dogmatic documents and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

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Or we can go straight to what God said as see if our church aligns with God's Word.

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

20 And Moses said to the people, “Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin.”

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

God does not change, what He does is forever

Ecc 3:14 I know that whatever God does,
It shall be forever.
Nothing can be added to it,
And nothing taken from it.
God does it, that men should fear before Him.

Our only correct response is to fear God and keep His commandments, its what we are judged on.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

Why we are being called back to this in these last days because its the everlasting gospel

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon[f] is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Sadly, many has gone away from this and our fear of God is through mans traditions

Isa 29:13 Therefore the Lord said:

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,

This is what Jesus condemned

Mat 15:3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 5 But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” 6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.
7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8 “‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

This is serious, the word of God void- all of God’s promises voided out, our worship in vain, these are not my words, but our Savior's. Why not just fear God and obey Him because there is no one else we place above Him and do what He asks because we trust and love Him above all else, even if most of the world is doing something different- Jesus did say the path is narrow. .

Xeno.of.athens said:

I have a printed copy of this book, and I do not recall any claim that Sunday observance rests entirely on non-scriptural Church magisterial teaching, so if that is your claim then I will be needing serious documentation to support it.

You can access it at https://www.gutenberg.org/files/27435/27435-pdf.pdf

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Its there in Chapter 8, "The Church and the Bible. Its in the very link you provided.

"Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."

Freth said:

., they were for our health.

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This is what I believe. Pigs and bottom feeders of the sea are scavengers. I don't think they have changed. Peter never partake of them when the food was brought down. I really believe that was about the people and not the animals.

Have I eaten pork? Yes. But do I still see it as unhealthy? Yes. A pig still has no sweat glands and things like shell and catfish are the scavengers of the sea. Personally, it just increases my faith in God really. He knows what's healthy for these bodies. And it still rings true today.

But to each his own....