Doctrine of Unconditional Election

David1701 · Friday at 9:58 AM

lismore said:
Hello! Thank you for your reply. The passage says that Cornelius was given the opportunity to be saved because he had good works. How does this fit with unconditional election? God Bless.

The passage does not say that Cornelius was "given the opportunity to be saved", nor does it say that Peter was sent to him because Cornelius had good works.

We need to believe what the Bible says, not what our theology might like it to say.

1) Cornelius was already a believer in God, who was devout, feared God, gave alms and prayed regularly; in other words, he was saved; however, he was under the Old Covenant, and, like all others who were alive and saved under the Old Covenant, he had to hear the gospel and come into New Covenant salvation.

2) Cornelius was a Gentile, so there had to be apostolic witness to the fact that Gentiles were now to be included in the New Covenant.

3) God sent Peter, to participate in, and witness, the Gentile "Pentecost".

4) The Bible declares that faith is a gift from God, not the result of sinful man's will or choice.

5) The Bible says that election is of grace (unmerited favour), not because of sinful man's foreseen will or works.

lismore · Friday at 10:13 AM

David Lamb said:
Where does the passage say that? It says that his prayer was answered by the visit of Peter, so it seems he had been praying for somebody to teach him more about being a Christian. If we look at Acts 10, we find that Cornelius was already a God-fearing man. We don't read that he was saved only when Peter visited him. Certainly there is no conflict between unconditional election and the account of Peter's visit to Cornelius.

Hello David, good to hear from you, I hope you're well today. I was looking at the phrase 'memorial offering' that Cornelius was commended for having made, prayers and gifts to the poor. God bless you.

Jan001 · Friday at 10:51 AM

Brightfame52 said:
This is Scrabble

Do you believe that God knew before he created the world which people he'd later create would inherit eternal life and which people would not? Or do you believe that God isn't omniscient—all-knowing?

Brightfame52 · Friday at 2:46 PM

Jan001 said:
Do you believe that God knew before he created the world which people he'd later create would inherit eternal life and which people would not? Or do you believe that God isn't omniscient—all-knowing?

God created some people for heaven, called vessels of mercy and He likewise created some people for hell and destruction for their sins, called vessels of wrath. Rom 9

Jan001 · Friday at 6:24 PM

Brightfame52 said:
God created some people for heaven, called vessels of mercy and He likewise created some people for hell and destruction for their sins, called vessels of wrath. Rom 9

How do you reconcile the following scripture passages with Romans 9? It seems to me that God desires every person to be saved, and therefore he makes it possible.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 4:8
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Perhaps Romans 9 doesn't mean what you think it means.

I think Paul was telling these Roman Jews that the Gentile Christians were just as worthy of inheriting eternal life as were the Jewish Christians.

I think Paul's point for these Roman Jewish Christians to understand is that God's ways are not our ways, and they shouldn't question his salvation plan for the Gentile nations but accept it as his will. The Jews thought that they were the only ones who could be saved. They were mistaken.

Paul stated, "What if God, wanting to show his wrath... created some vessels for honor and some for dishonor?" Please note that Paul never claimed that God literally created some people for the purpose of destroying them.

Romans 9:22
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Paul states in 2 Timothy that our choices determine whether we are vessels of honor or dishonor.

2 Timothy 2:20-22
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Scripture shows us that God cannot possibly do evil against a righteous person because God is perfect goodness and he is love.

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Brightfame52 · Friday at 6:28 PM

Jan001 said:
How do you reconcile the following scripture passages with Romans 9? It seems to me that God desires every person to be saved, and therefore he makes it possible.

I dont need to reconcile them, they your burden not mine, I agree with them

Jan001 · Friday at 6:45 PM

Brightfame52 said:
I dont need to reconcile them, they your burden not mine, I agree with them

Your God doesn't seem to be the same as my God.

My God is the Holy Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. He is love. He desires all people to know, love, and serve him on earth until death in obedience to his commandments so that they can then be happy with him in eternal life. Revelation 2:10, James 1:12

A New Dawn · Saturday at 11:15 AM

lismore said:
Hello! Thank you for your reply. The passage says that Cornelius was given the opportunity to be saved because he had good works. How does this fit with unconditional election? God Bless.

It says nothing of the kind. I compared about 10 or 12 versions, and none of them say that. Cornelius was already a believer who did the good works he was created unto when he was saved. The angel came to say that God was pleased with his offerings and good works and to send for Peter so Peter could witness the gospel being delivered to the gentiles.

Brightfame52 · Saturday at 1:40 PM

A New Dawn said:
It says nothing of the kind. I compared about 10 or 12 versions, and none of them say that. Cornelius was already a believer who did the good works he was created unto when he was saved. The angel came to say that God was pleased with his offerings and good works and to send for Peter so Peter could witness the gospel being delivered to the gentiles.

God isn't going to be pleased with a lost mans alms giving and good works. They had to be accepted through the Mediation of Christ, Cornelius was already accepted in the beloved Eph 1:6. He just needed further enlighten about Christ who saved him, ad to instruct him on things to do Acts 10:6

6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

David1701 · Saturday at 8:00 PM

Jan001 said:
Your God doesn't seem to be the same as my God.

My God is the Holy Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. He is love. He desires all people to know, love, and serve him on earth until death in obedience to his commandments so that they can then be happy with him in eternal life. Revelation 2:10, James 1:12

You do realise that God is not ONLY love, I hope.

Rom. 9:21-24 (A.V.)
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Jan001 · 2026-06-22T09:01:09-0500

David1701 said:
You do realise that God is not ONLY love, I hope.

Rom. 9:21-24 (A.V.)
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

It is impossible for God to arbitrarily create some people to damn and others to save.
God desires that all people be saved and that no one be lost.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Romans 9:21-24 does not say what you think it says!

The Book of Romans was addressed to Roman Jews who were converts to Christianity. Paul was trying to convince them that all people, Jew and Gentile alike, were to be included in God's merciful salvation plan for humankind.

Romans 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath......

Paul did not say that God literally created some people to damn them; he means that God's ways are not our ways and that he can show mercy on whomever he desires, including the Gentiles.

Each person must choose for himself whether he will be a vessel who serves God until he dies, which will result in eternal life, or a vessel who serves himself until he dies, which will result in damnation.

2 Timothy 2:15-21
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

Pharaoh chose to be a vessel for dishonor. God did not force Pharaoh to sin against him. He permitted Pharaoh to sin against him. The OT authors wrote as if God's permissive will were his actions, but it was not.

Pharaoh literally hardened his own heart.

Exodus 8:32
But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

We can freely choose to harden our hearts against God and his commandments or to humbly and contritely obey them. Our choice will have eternal consequences—heaven or hell.

1 Samuel 6:6
Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He did mighty things among them, did they not let the people go, that they might depart?

David1701 · 2026-06-22T11:10:09-0500

Jan001 said:
It is impossible for God to arbitrarily create some people to damn and others to save.
God desires that all people be saved and that no one be lost.

...

Let's deal with this, shall we?

No-one has said anything about God doing even one thing "arbitrarily". God ALWAYS has purposes for everything he does.

God works all things according to the counsel of his own will. He is almighty, omniscient and all-wise; so, if he had purposed every person to be saved, then every person would be saved. Who could thwart him? You and I certainly could not, neither could the devil and his demons; in fact, the Bible states that everyone whom the Father has given to Jesus WILL come to him, WILL NOT be cast out and WILL be raised up at the last day.

Jesus deliberately spoke to many people in parables, which, as the Bible states, was to make sure that they WOULD NOT understand. On the other hand, he explained the parables to his disciples.

Jesus himself stated that he would lay down his life for the sheep (i.e. not for everyone). Later in the same chapter (John 10), he told some Pharisees that they did not believe because they were not of his sheep (N.B. not the other way round!).

Jesus also laid down his life for the church (again, not for everyone) according to Scripture, with the church being his wife, symbolically. If Jesus had laid down his life for everyone, and not only the church, they he would have been a spiritual adulterer!

Then there is the problem of justice; if some for whom Jesus died ended up being punished for their sins, that would be grossly unjust, since Jesus has already taken the sins and punishment of his people upon himself, on the cross. In other words, God would be punishing people for sins for which Jesus had already propitiated the Father.

The fact is that Jesus laid down his life for those whom God chose, from before the foundation of the world, and for no-one else. To those people, God, in his chosen time, gives the gospel, repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, unto salvation. They are justified, sanctified,and will be glorified, when Jesus returns.

Rom. 8:28-30 (E.S.V.)
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

This is the unbreakable, golden chain of salvation, starting with God's foreknowledge (as an author knows, in advance, those characters in his book whom he is going to treat favourably) and ending with our glorification, at the resurrection of the just.

SALVATION IS OF THE LORD!

A New Dawn · 2026-06-22T11:15:15-0500

Jan001 said:
It is impossible for God to arbitrarily create some people to damn and others to save.
God desires that all people be saved and that no one be lost.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Romans 9:21-24 does not say what you think it says!

The Book of Romans was addressed to Roman Jews who were converts to Christianity. Paul was trying to convince them that all people, Jew and Gentile alike, were to be included in God's merciful salvation plan for humankind.

Romans 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath......

Paul did not say that God literally created some people to damn them; he means that God's ways are not our ways and that he can show mercy on whomever he desires, including the Gentiles.

Each person must choose for himself whether he will be a vessel who serves God until he dies, which will result in eternal life, or a vessel who serves himself until he dies, which will result in damnation.

2 Timothy 2:15-21
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

Pharaoh chose to be a vessel for dishonor. God did not force Pharaoh to sin against him. He permitted Pharaoh to sin against him. The OT authors wrote as if God's permissive will were his actions, but it was not.

Pharaoh literally hardened his own heart.

Exodus 8:32
But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

We can freely choose to harden our hearts against God and his commandments or to humbly and contritely obey them. Our choice will have eternal consequences—heaven or hell.

1 Samuel 6:6
Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He did mighty things among them, did they not let the people go, that they might depart?

You are speaking about the heart of God. Yes, God does desire that all come to Him, but since man rebelled against God, which puts us in the position of needing a savior, that is not possible. Because, as mentioned by previous posters, God is more than just love. God is Omnipotent, God is Just, God is Righteous, God is above all that we are and can understand. The Bible reveals His will and plan of salvation and makes it clear that strait is the gate and narrow is the path that leads to salvation, and there are few who will find it.

Brightfame52 · 2026-06-22T11:57:12-0500

Unconditional election; this means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that causes Him to save us. Rather election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save according to the good pleasure of His own will. This salvation based on His Sovereign purpose of election Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) 4

Jan001 · 2026-06-22T12:03:20-0500

David1701 said:
God works all things according to the counsel of his own will. He is almighty, omniscient and all-wise; so, if he had purposed every person to be saved, then every person would be saved. Who could thwart him? You and I certainly could not, neither could the devil and his demons; in fact, the Bible states that everyone whom the Father has given to Jesus WILL come to him, WILL NOT be cast out and WILL be raised up at the last day.

It seems to me that you do not believe in God's gift of free will for every person.

God is LOVE.

God's word states that He DESIRES for all people to be saved. This means that he provides a way for every person to be saved.

Only they, using their free will, can thwart his desire. They personally thwart his desire by choosing to refuse to know, love, and obey and serve him until they die. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

God does not prevent anyone from obeying his commandments. However, he knew before he created the world who would obey his commandments until they died, and he predestined only these few to eternal life. He "put into his hand" only these few. He gave only these few to Jesus.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Jan001 · 2026-06-22T12:20:36-0500

Brightfame52 said:
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) 4

This doesn't have anything to do with an individual's salvation.

God knew the lifelong character and abilities of all people before they were conceived.

He chose a few of them, such as Abraham, Jacob, Peter, and Paul, to be an integral part of his salvation plan for all mankind because of his prior knowledge about their character strengths and abilities.

Jan001 · 2026-06-22T12:24:57-0500

A New Dawn said:
You are speaking about the heart of God. Yes, God does desire that all come to Him, but since man rebelled against God, which puts us in the position of needing a savior, that is not possible. Because, as mentioned by previous posters, God is more than just love. God is Omnipotent, God is Just, God is Righteous, God is above all that we are and can understand. The Bible reveals His will and plan of salvation and makes it clear that strait is the gate and narrow is the path that leads to salvation, and there are few who will find it.

God doesn't prevent anyone from finding the narrow path and following it!
God desires that all people find the narrow path and follow it.
We each choose for ourselves the wide path to perdition or the narrow path to eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Jan001 · 2026-06-22T12:38:20-0500

David1701 said:
Rom. 8:28-30 (E.S.V.)
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God the Father predestined to eternal life those who would imitate his son's obedience to him until they died.
These few obedient people he called, justified, and glorified before they were born because God had "finished all his work" on the sixth day of creation.

Hebrews 4:3-4
For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;

Jan001 · 2026-06-22T12:55:30-0500

David1701 said:
Then there is the problem of justice; if some for whom Jesus died ended up being punished for their sins, that would be grossly unjust, since Jesus has already taken the sins and punishment of his people upon himself, on the cross. In other words, God would be punishing people for sins for which Jesus had already propitiated the Father.

Each person will be held accountable for every sin he commits after his baptism. Hebrews 4:13, Galatians 6:7-9

Jesus always forgives the personal sins of people who repent of them. 1 John 2:1-4

People are punished with hellfire only when they don't repent of their grievous sins before they die. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

David1701 · 2026-06-22T13:53:46-0500

Jan001 said:
It seems to me that you do not believe in God's gift of free will for every person.

It seems to me that you do not believe in God's free grace, for his elect.

God is LOVE.

God is not ONLY love; do you understand that?

God's word states that He DESIRES for all people to be saved. This means that he provides a way for every person to be saved.

I've explained that before, in this forum. God desires all categories of people to be saved, not every individual.

The way of salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ; and, the Bible says that faith in Jesus Christ is a gift from God that not everyone has.

Only they, using their free will, can thwart his desire. They personally thwart his desire by choosing to refuse to know, love, and obey and serve him until they die. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

God's will trumps man's will - every time! Your view of God is far too small; and your view of man is far too great.

God does not prevent anyone from obeying his commandments. However, he knew before he created the world who would obey his commandments until they died, and he predestined only these few to eternal life. He "put into his hand" only these few. He gave only these few to Jesus.

Sinful man simply does not obey God's commandments; in fact, the Bible states that he is hostile towards God, hates the light and will not come to it, and that he does not receive the things of the Spirit of God (e.g. the gospel). This is why we MUST be born again, in order to enter the Kingdom of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

That was written to Christians...

Doctrine of Unconditional Election

God is good!

Maranatha

Striving to win the prize...

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Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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God is good!

Striving to win the prize...

God is good!

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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Striving to win the prize...

Striving to win the prize...

Striving to win the prize...

Striving to win the prize...

God is good!

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