Doctrine of Unconditional Election

A New Dawn said:

No, it doesn’t. That parable doesn’t come close to suggesting that the seeds that fall on dry, rocky earth that shoots up sprouts that wither in the sun are saved individuals.

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The seeds are the faith that grows, that then withers and dies. If faith by itself in Jesus only saves you, then they would have to be saved in the first place to grow. You can't have it both ways. You can't say faith in Jesus only forever saves you, but also negate the symbolism of growing faith and say they aren't saved.

A New Dawn said:

And Hebrews 6 is speaking about believing Jews who don’t stop believing but went back to the old system under the law because they were ostracized and rejected by their family and friends, and they couldn't put up with the persecution anymore.

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You completely by-passed points in Hebrews 6.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

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So.... rejected, cursed and burned is "didn't stop believing" ?? "If they fall away"... you can't fall away from something you never had.

A New Dawn said:

And what about 2 Peter 2, and Galatians 5, and Romans 11, and the others? I’ve read those chapters and don’t see where you think they are talking about true believers changing their mind.

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2 peter 2: Indeed, if they have once escaped the pollutions of the world through knowing our Lord and Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah, and then have again become entangled and defeated by them, their latter condition has become worse than their former.

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"Have again"... So they believed, left and now their condition is worse than before. Next verse:

It would have been better for them not to have known the Way of righteousness than, fully knowing, to turn from the holy command delivered to them.

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Galatians 5 -
You who are trying to be declared righteous by God through legalism have severed yourselves from the Messiah! You have fallen away from God’s grace!

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So, they had grace, was walking correctly and then fell away. You can't be severed from something that you weren't apart of or attached to in the first place.

Romans 11-

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you — a wild olive — were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree, 18 then don’t boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you. 19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won’t spare you!

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You can't be broken off of something you were never apart of. And if God won't spare them, who is Paul talking to? Believers.

A New Dawn said:

Perhaps, though, you missed those verses where God says NOTHING can pluck us from His hand.

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Actually, you're misremembering that verse. It says "no one" will pluck/snatch you out of his hand. Meaning, a 3rd party. That's the context. Someone else cannot come up and take you from God. That does not say however, that you can't leave.

Here's the verse:
They will absolutely never be destroyed, and no one will snatch them from my hands.

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John 6 - Again, misremembering. Where does it say that Jesus "WILL" lose none?

And this is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose any of all those he has given me but should raise them up on the Last Day.

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Should and will are 2 separate words and don't mean the same thing.

Delvianna said:

The seeds are the faith that grows, that then withers and dies. If faith by itself in Jesus only saves you, then they would have to be saved in the first place to grow. You can't have it both ways. You can't say faith in Jesus only forever saves you, but also negate the symbolism of growing faith and say they aren't saved.


You completely by-passed points in Hebrews 6.



So.... rejected, cursed and burned is "didn't stop believing" ?? "If they fall away"... you can't fall away from something you never had.





"Have again"... So they believed, left and now their condition is worse than before. Next verse:




So, they had grace, was walking correctly and then fell away. You can't be severed from something that you weren't apart of or attached to in the first place.



You can't be broken off of something you were never apart of. And if God won't spare them, who is Paul talking to? Believers.



Actually, you're misremembering that verse. It says "no one" will pluck/snatch you out of his hand. Meaning, a 3rd party. That's the context. Someone else cannot come up and take you from God. That does not say however, that you can't leave.



John 6 - Again, misremembering. Where does it say that Jesus "WILL" lose none?


Should and will are 2 separate words and don't mean the same thing.

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You are just describing people who were never saved.

Except Hebrews 6. That is a situation that happened and is unable to be repeatable, ever, because there are no more animal sacrifices. Yes, that situation happened, not because they stopped believing, but because they turned their back on the living sacrifice, the sacrificial lamb of God, and returned to animal sacrifices KNOWING THAT THEY ARE EMPTY OFFERINGS because they could not stand the persecution they were receiving. It is one of the saddest stories in the Bible.

John 10:26-29 (NASB95) 26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

That is pretty clear that God gives his sheep eternal life and they shall never perish and no one will snatch them from His hand. No one does not just mean no person (as if a person has the power to stand against God in that manner) but it also means no spiritual entity. There is NO POWER that can snatch us from His hand. NO POWER that has the ability to turn our hearts away from Him in a like manner to when HE turned our hearts TO him.
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John 6:37 (NASB95) “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
John 6:39 (NASB95) “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 (NASB95) “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:65 (NASB95) And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Dang, there’s a lot of “will”s in those verses and not one “should”.

And those verses are clear that only those given to Christ BY the Father will be saved. There might be some who were not given by the Father, who hear the gospel and might think they have received faith, but because it isn’t given by the father, it isn’t true faith, and it withers and dies like in the parable of the sower.

A New Dawn said:

Except Hebrews 6. That is a situation that happened and is unable to be repeatable, ever, because there are no more animal sacrifices. Yes, that situation happened, not because they stopped believing, but because they turned their back on the living sacrifice, the sacrificial lamb of God, and returned to animal sacrifices KNOWING THAT THEY ARE EMPTY OFFERINGS because they could not stand the persecution they were receiving. It is one of the saddest stories in the Bible.

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Hebrews was written before the 2nd temple fell. They continued with sacrifices for decades passed Jesus. Sacrifices in Hebrews are also spoken of in present tense, not past tense. So I have no idea where you think that "no more animal sacrifices" has any context in the book of Hebrews. So your conclusion is completely inaccurate.

A New Dawn said:

That is pretty clear that God gives his sheep eternal life and they shall never perish and no one will snatch them from His hand. No one does not just mean no person (as if a person has the power to stand against God in that manner) but it also means no spiritual entity. There is NO POWER that can snatch us from His hand. NO POWER that has the ability to turn our hearts away from Him in a like manner to when HE turned our hearts TO him.

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I have no idea where you get the idea that "no one" = no power. The greek words are "οὐ τις" which are two words for literally "no one".

No one means no one... not no power, literally, no one... a PERSON.

A New Dawn said:

John 6:37 (NASB95) “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
John 6:39 (NASB95) “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 (NASB95) “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:65 (NASB95) And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Dang, there’s a lot of “will”s in those verses and not one “should”.

And those verses are clear that only those given to Christ BY the Father will be saved. There might be some who were not given by the Father, who hear the gospel and might think they have received faith, but because it isn’t given by the father, it isn’t true faith, and it withers and dies like in the parable of the sower.

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Again, all of that is from God's side. God is saying that HE won't cast you out. But again, that doesn't say YOU can't leave. So if you stay in Christ, you will have eternal life and God will not cast you out. If you don't stay in Christ and you leave, God will break you off and toss you into the fire. That is a YOU issue, not a GOD issue.

Brightfame52 said:

You self proved yourself in error

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You assert that I erred without scriptural proof.

What do you think the following scripture passage means? Do you think it means that God arbitrarily creates some people for damnation and some for eternal life?

Romans 9:13-26
As it is written,

“I have loved Jacob,
but I have hated Esau.”
14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.

19 You will say to me then, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; 23 and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they shall be called children of the living God.”

Delvianna said:

Hebrews was written before the 2nd temple fell. They continued with sacrifices for decades passed Jesus. Sacrifices in Hebrews are also spoken of in present tense, not past tense. So I have no idea where you think that "no more animal sacrifices" has any context in the book of Hebrews. So your conclusion is completely inaccurate.


I have no idea where you get the idea that "no one" = no power. The greek words are "οὐ τις" which are two words for literally "no one".
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No one means no one... not no power, literally, no one... a PERSON.


Again, all of that is from God's side. God is saying that HE won't cast you out. But again, that doesn't say YOU can't leave. So if you stay in Christ, you will have eternal life and God will not cast you out. If you don't stay in Christ and you leave, God will break you off and toss you into the fire. That is a YOU issue, not a GOD issue.

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All of this is you creating your own plan of salvation because you can’t abide by what is clearly outlined in the Bible. Jesus said “I will save ALL that the Father has given me to save.” There is no two ways to read that sentence. So go ahead and twist those words to mean what you want them to mean, but it is God you will have to answer to when He asks why you changed His plan of salvation.

And as far as Hebrews goes, I never said there weren’t sacrifices being done. In fact I SPECIFICALLY SAID that those believing Jews left their communion with other believers to return to their old practice of animal sacrifices, KNOWING THEY WERE EMPTY SACRIFICES since they KNEW (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that Christ was the final sacrifice. THEN I said that because there is no more temple and no more sacrifices (going on presently) that is not a repeatable situation.

Please do me the respect of actually reading what I am saying before you jump on my posts and accuse me of saying things I didn’t say. Thanks. There is no reason for animosity in these discussions. You obviously have your opinions which glaringly differs from mine (and scripture that’s been provided), yet you only parrot how what I say is wrong without anything more than your eisegesis by adding in words where there isn’t anything of the sort in those (or surrounding) verses.

A New Dawn said:

All of this is you creating your own plan of salvation because you can’t abide by what is clearly outlined in the Bible. Go ahead and twist those words to mean what you want them to mean, but it is God you will have to answer to when He asks why you changed His plan of salvation.

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Ditto. Because I'm giving you the actual greek words and definitions and contexts that you keep altering.

A New Dawn said:

And as far as Hebrews goes, I never said there weren’t sacrifices being done. In fact I SPECIFICALLY SAID that those believing Jews left their communion with other believers to return to their old practice of animal sacrifices, KNOWING THEY WERE EMPTY SACRIFICES since they KNEW (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that Christ was the final sacrifice. THEN I said that because there is no more temple and no more sacrifices (going on presently) that is not a repeatable situation.

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I'm just going to requote you...

A New Dawn said:

Except Hebrews 6. That is a situation that happened and is unable to be repeatable, ever, because there are no more animal sacrifices.

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So it's hard to understand what you mean when you state different things and I'm trying to decipher your point. I chose this, since it's the first sentence.

A New Dawn said:

Please do me the respect of actually reading what I am saying before you jump on my posts and accuse me of saying things I didn’t say. Thanks. There is no reason for animosity in these discussions. You obviously have your opinions which glaringly differs from mine (and scripture that’s been provided), yet you only parrot how what I say is wrong without anything more than your eisegesis by adding in words where there isn’t anything of the sort in those (or surrounding) verses.

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Please do me the respect of not accusing me of something I didn't do when it's in black and white on this forum as I literally just requoted you when I'm trying to understand the points you're making. If I misunderstood your point, I'm sorry and it wasn't intentional. But the attitude isn't needed. And no where am I "adding in" words. I'm correcting the words you've wrongfully applied and given verses showing you're misquoting and even altering definitions by showing you the Greek. I agree that animosity in these discussions isn't warranted but you've been so hostile thus far and I've now reached my end point when I should have just left it earlier with you as the end of the discussion since you want to play these games.

God bless, I won't be replying anymore.

Delvianna said:

Ditto. Because I'm giving you the actual greek words and definitions and contexts that you keep altering.



I'm just going to requote you...

So it's hard to understand what you mean when you state different things and I'm trying to decipher your point. I chose this, since it's the first sentence.

Please do me the respect of not accusing me of something I didn't do when it's in black and white on this forum as I literally just requoted you when I'm trying to understand the points you're making. If I misunderstood your point, I'm sorry and it wasn't intentional. But the attitude isn't needed. And no where am I "adding in" words. I'm correcting the words you've wrongfully applied and given verses showing you're misquoting and even altering definitions by showing you the Greek. I agree that animosity in these discussions isn't warranted but you've been so hostile thus far and I've now reached my end point when I should have just left it earlier with you as the end of the discussion since you want to play these games.

God bless, I won't be replying anymore.

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Reading posts to try to understand what the person is saying is the way to have discussions, not reading them to see how you can suggest that it meant something completely opposite than what they said. Since YOU brought up Hebrews 6 in an effort to show me by that example that that situation could play out again today, I was pointing out your error because IT IS NOT POSSIBLE to go back to animal sacrifices today, so that situation is NOT repeatable today, as I previously said, which you twisted to mean something different.

And I don’t need for you to give me anything in the attitude you are delivering it in. I know how to read the Bible. I can consult concordances and read commentaries. I posted the same scripture you did, and it did not include the words you added to your interpretation. And you refused to address it, but instead feel you need to lecture me.

Brightfame52 said:

Yeah because you didnt give any scripture proof in what you said, duh

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Before the foundation of the world, God "elected" to eternal life the people he "foreknew" were obedient to him until they died. God did not "elect" to eternal life anyone who wasn't faithful until death. We do not know whether we will remain faithful until we die, but God knows everything about everyone and "elected" only those who would.

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by being set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be yours in ever increasing measure.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Beware, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have affliction. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Your "duh" is rude and a careless word for a professed Christian to use unless he is saying it about himself. Matthew 12:36, Matthew 5:22

Hello! I had a question for those who believe in unconditional election, if that's ok. In the scripture below you are surely familiar with:

Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked. The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God (Acts 10:4)

The actions of Cornelius had a reaction, God sent the angel because of his prayers and his gifts to the poor. It was because of something he had done?

God Bless you and thank you.

lismore said:

Hello! I had a question for those who believe in unconditional election, if that's ok. In the scripture below you are surely familiar with:

Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked. The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God (Acts 10:4)

The actions of Cornelius had a reaction, God sent the angel because of his prayers and his gifts to the poor. It was because of something he had done?

God Bless you and thank you.

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What is the question? That God was recognizing the good works Cornelius had done? We are created unto good works when we have been saved. I am not sure how this is related to unconditional election.

A New Dawn said:

What is the question? That God was recognizing the good works Cornelius had done? We are created unto good works when we have been saved. I am not sure how this is related to unconditional election.

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Hello! Thank you for your reply. The passage says that Cornelius was given the opportunity to be saved because he had good works. How does this fit with unconditional election? God Bless.

Brightfame52 said:

Okay Great scriptures, I have no problem with them, Not one of them says:

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God is omniscient. He knew before he created humankind who would obey his commandments and thus inherit eternal life. 1 Peter 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 1:8

"Foreknew" is only used when speaking about people whom God knows will inherit eternal life after they die. He calls these people his "elect." Romans 8:29

If people don't inherit eternal life after they die, God will say he "never knew" them. Matthew 7:23

God had criteria for choosing his elect. His criterion is their obedience to his commandments until they die. Revelation 2:10, Philippians 2:8

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing; but obeying the commandments of God is everything.

Judgment Day

John 5:28-29
Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20:11-15

lismore said:

Hello! Thank you for your reply. The passage says that Cornelius was given the opportunity to be saved because he had good works. How does this fit with unconditional election? God Bless.

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Where does the passage say that? It says that his prayer was answered by the visit of Peter, so it seems he had been praying for somebody to teach him more about being a Christian. If we look at Acts 10, we find that Cornelius was already a God-fearing man. We don't read that he was saved only when Peter visited him. Certainly there is no conflict between unconditional election and the account of Peter's visit to Cornelius.